29 replies to this topic

[f1steveuk]

I was helping a friend of mine work on a car, a Brabham BT44B, and when trying to get out, my hands feel to two pieces of wood, cut and shaped to form a push handle, self teppered to the outside of the monocoque. Obviously Gordon Murray hadn't considered where a driver could brace himself to get out, and fell back on a good old fashioned piece of "god's plastic".

Now I know of the Protos (wooden monocoque), and that there was a time bucks and models would be made from wood, as were steering wheel rims once, but where was the last time you saw wood in a modern race car?

[Andrew Kitson]

The plank underneath all modern F1s?

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
The plank underneath all modern F1s?

Funny how you miss the obvious one!!

[Macca]

Umm.......................that one's made of synthetic stuff.......


Paul M

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Macca
Umm.......................that one's made of synthetic stuff.......


Paul M

They looked like ply, with inserts, but I can't say I cut one up!

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
The plank underneath all modern F1s?

The Plank is Jabroc, isn't it?

http://www.permalide...uk/jabrocn.html

Used in the nuclear industry...

[David Beard]

The Getem Formula Ford had marine ply bodywork in 1977....it looked good, too.

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by David Beard
The Getem Formula Ford had marine ply bodywork in 1977....it looked good, too.

I suppose the worry would be the same as the Protos, fire and splitters??

[bradbury west]

IIRC did the Getem FF have an unusual front suspension design, horizontal springs or some form of crossover??

Any thoughts? Any Photos?

Roger Lund

[David Beard]

Originally posted by bradbury west
IIRC did the Getem FF have an unusual front suspension design, horizontal springs or some form of crossover??

Any thoughts? Any Photos?

Roger Lund

Push rod operated cross over spring units, through a sort of vertical wishbone, I think. Just like the Tyrrell that appeared after Maurice Philippe had interviewed Getem designer Alan Brunning....

[f1steveuk]

Your not suggesting he copied it, surely! Nothing is new anyway!

[David Beard]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
Your not suggesting he copied it, surely! Nothing is new anyway!

Not really I suppose, but it's a nice story...when Alan went for the interview he took photos of the Getem set-up. Philippe said...ah, I'm thinking of doing something similar. Then 008 appeared.

The Getem suspension had the same cross sectional area as Andy Best's feet, the driver the car was built around.

[Bonde]

Steve,

Could it be that the BT-44 "exit handles" were made from Jabroc ™ or from a phenolic laminate which looks very similar?

I always thought these two handles were machined from black-anodized aluminium, but there you go...

The handles were there when the BT44 was launched, so I assume Murray had realized their necessity for facilitating exit, particularly when the car was wet, during his experience with the BT43. We've actually touched upon these handles in another thread some time ago - the McLaren M19 had them before Brabhams found them necessary, though McLaren's definitely appear to be machined in aeorofoil shape from aluminium.

BOT: We used marine plywood for our Formula Ford side pod floors until a few years ago (some still do and we might again), and marine ply was occasionally used for FF2000 diffusers here in Denmark until fairly recently.

In the late seventies (or even early eighties?), I remember seeing pretty thick (probably 1/2") plywood being used on a Ralt RT1 F3 as rear wing endplates, nicely radiused and all, of the actual wing support with cross-tube variety. Didn't notice until the car was shunted (naught to do with the plywood, though).

BTW, I don't think fire and splinters are real issues with plywood - a fuel fire is primarily dangerous because of the burning fuel, whatever then goes up in smoke is secondary; carbon fibre-epoxy and other composites will eventually burn, too - and they will certainly splinter also. I suppose it's basically questionable resistance to major impacts, difficulty in assuring joint integrity and loss of the art of forming ply that left the majority of designers cold with respect to plywood for racing car bodies or chassis in the days of yore. And then there's rot and fungus, not to mention worms or even termites...Technically, it should be possible to make a reasonable plywood chassis - plywood aircraft aren't bad structurally. But then again, pilots don't tend to throw their vehicles at the scenery and other competitors with the alarming regularity that racers do, and still expect to be around for the next round! Man-made composites have long since surpassed Nature's Own in structural and otherwise performance. As far as I can see, the only lure to use (ply)wood in any racing car today is low cost and the material being more pleasant to work with than glass fibres and polyester or epoxy. But you still don't want to inhale the sawdust though...

How on Earth did that post end up being so longwinded???

[Bonde]

It appears a Getmem is for sale here: http://www.spencerel...document&part=2

Roger,

Yes, there was a picture in Autosport of the Getem FF1600 front at around the time of the launch of the Tyrrell 008 - I'll see if I can find it and post it for research purposes, if I'm allowed to do that.

Getems always were - and are - nicely different and innovative. Their current car is IMO the most well-proportioned FF1800 around, though it isn't exactly running circles around the FF 'establishment'. But all power to them for doing things their way!

I don't have my Nickless-book handy, but didn't the Getem theme evolve into the 'relaunch' of the marque name of Lago at some point? A pretty neat looking car, too, IIRC.

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Bonde
Steve,

Could it be that the BT-44 "exit handles" were made from Jabroc ™ or from a phenolic laminate which looks very similar?

I always thought these two handles were machined from black-anodized aluminium, but there you go...

Well they looked like wood, that's why I was so surprised.

So if the M19 had them, wouldn't they be needed on the P160/P180 and P201 BRMs as well

I'm still trying to get over how tall Pace must have been, I could NOT reach the pedals, and the car has never really been got at!

Long winded? Informative!

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Bonde
It appears a Getmem is for sale here: http://www.spencerel...document&part=2

Roger,

Yes, there was a picture in Autosport of the Getem FF1600 front at around the time of the launch of the Tyrrell 008 - I'll see if I can find it and post it for research purposes, if I'm allowed to do that.

Getems always were - and are - nicely different and innovative. Their current car is IMO the most well-proportioned FF1800 around, though it isn't exactly running circles around the FF 'establishment'. But all power to them for doing things their way!

I don't have my Nickless-book handy, but didn't the Getem theme evolve into the 'relaunch' of the marque name of Lago at some point? A pretty neat looking car, too, IIRC.

Yes, I've seen the Getem on the Spencer Elton site...I'm a bit puzzled as to which one it is. I've been talking about the 77 car, which isn't the one offered. The first Getem was built designed by Alan Brunning and Martin Down, in Lancashire, the next by Alan and Andy Best (Martin had moved south). Then Alan and Andy moved down south too to work for Ford. Martin Down got involved again a bit later I think. The recent cars only have Down's involvement, I believe, and are raced by his son(s?)

Don't know about the Lago????

[Macca]

OK, so Jabroc is mostly treewood, laminated with lots of resin or whatever; there's a material called MDF (medium density fibreboard) in the building industry which sounds similar.

I remember getting into the pits at Brands in about 1988 after the WEC round there, when all the transporters went across the track to load up; and when I had a close-up look at a Courage, the front splitter was plywood. Presumably it was cheaper than c/f if it was going to get ground away over the bumps anyway.


Paul M

[David M. Kane]

Early Robin Herd designed McLaren's used Mallite...Cobbled up by John Thompson.

[Bonde]

In modern F3 wood is a mandatory material for a certain application:

FIA Appx. J, 2005 F3 Technical Regulations:
Article: 15.1.6: "The surface formed by all parts lying on the reference plane referred to in Article 3.13 must be made of wood".

Wood is good for (non-structural) floors because it has good wear properties, doesn't damage the tarmac or leave nasty things embedded in it, nor does it leave nasty fibres floating about in the air for race fans and participants to inhale when the inevitable contact twixt car belly and road is made. And it is affordable.

[Gerr]

Two recent examples I know of are, Jerry Karl's USAC/CART Tonco Trailer McLaren M24-Chevy and Patrick Tambay's Magicolor CanAm Lola T530.
Karl had updated the old car with plywood ground-effect tunnels. The Lola had had huge plywood vertical surfaces added to the outer panels between the wheel arches.

[hiteknz]

Possibly a little bit off topic although its still wood used on cars we use Birchwood spacers between the Holley carb and manifold on some of the V8 engines we build,its a great insulator

[Bonde]

Weren't wooden pads also used on pedals on some front engine/front radiator cars due to its insulating properties?

[Mike Lawrence]

The original Marcos was claimed to be made from 'laminated marine plywood'. Leaving aside the fact that all plywood is laminated, it was actually made from the ordinary plywood you can buy from your local store (my source: Frank Costin). Does 'marine' plywood actually exist?

[Bonde]

Mike,

Yes, I think you can actually buy plywood to 'marine' specification. Originally, marine plywood was made using insoluble adhesive (typically phenolic), whereas 'ordinary' plywood used soluble glue (typically casein), and the 'marine' variety is also impregnated against rot. These days - and for many years, I suspect - I think pretty much all plywood sold in our parts of the World uses a non-soluble resin glue and is treated against rot and fungus, whether to 'marine' specification or not. However, just a couple of years ago, my wife received a shipment of goods from Nepal - the crates were made of a plywood which came apart in plies in no time when wet (or dry!), and yet was very good for starting a fire in our wood burning stove (when dry)!

[D-Type]

I did a google for 'marine plywood'

There are all sorts of different things that come into it. A 'marine grade' plywood has waterproof glue, uses high grade veneers of particular timbers only and has no voids. The no voids makes it better when you bend it to shape.

There appears to be not much difference between marine grade and exterior grade but a big step to interior grade (cheap furniture, tea chests etc)

[RTH]

Ah yes, I can see it now, quick pitstop.........fuel, tyres......and a coat of Cuprinol !

[T54]

The floor pan on my Alpine A110 is made of plywood encased in resin-sealed fiberglass... it participates to the stiffness of the body, itself bonded to the central tubular spine.

T54

[Herbert]

I think I read somewhere that the Formula 1 Osella/Fomet of 1990 or 1991 had a floor made from wood.

[stuartbrs]

My Porsche 928 has a largeish plywood piece in the passenger floor, it covers the fuse box and is original.. when I first saw it I thought how un-Porsche it was...

Although, didnt the 908/917 fuse "box" consist of a block of wood with various thicknesses of wire wrapped around it??

[Graham Clayton]

I remember getting into the pits at Brands in about 1988 after the WEC round there, when all the transporters went across the track to load up; and when I had a close-up look at a Courage, the front splitter was plywood. Presumably it was cheaper than c/f if it was going to get ground away over the bumps anyway.
Paul M

The 2008 Danish-built Aquila CR1 M60 sportscar also uses a replaceable wooden splitter, while the Lola-Toyota that finished 6th in the 2011 Le Mans 24 Hours had a rosewood front splitter:



Source: http://www.racecar-e...cal-report-lmp/