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Coopers in 1958


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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 16:00

Preparing, as I am, my next series of slot race cars, which is to be the 1958 season, I notice that there were a lot of Coopers competing in F.1 races that year.

I know that basically, Brabham and Salvadori drove the factory cars while Trintignant and Moss shared the Walker entries.

But, there are quite a few other that regularly appeared in races - especially non-Championship events. Not being a Sheldon person, I am not aware of the entrants of those private Coopers.

Can anyone help me with entrants names and if poss. some car colours, please?

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#2 GIGLEUX

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 17:28

Barry, I don't think that in 1958 there were many other Coopers than the four regular ones. In many F1 races the entry was completed with F2 cars, Coopers and Lotuses.

International Trophy Silverstone: n°16 Steve Ouvaroff Cooper 43 with a 1760cc Climax engine, n°19 Dick Gibson Cooper 43 with a 1560cc Climax engine and n°20 Bob Gérard with his type 44 Cooper, Bristol engined.

British GP a third car was entered by Cooper Car Co for Ian Burgess (n°12).

And that's all. This can be explained by the fact that the 2200 and 1960cc Coventry-Climax engines were not very numerous and allocated at first to Cooper and Lotus works cars and RRC Walker private team.

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 18:42

Gerard's would have been apple green and all the other AFAIK BRG

#4 macoran

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 19:46

Monaco Gp Ron Flockhart Nr.22 2.0l T43 DNQ
Moroccan GP Jack Fairman Nr.30 1.96l T45 8th

Source Doug Nye Cooper Cars

#5 Barry Boor

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 20:04

I am including the Coopers that were not actually full 2.5 litre cars. I have a couple of 1957 cars that I can include in my set.

David, I wonder if Tony Marsh's car would have been the same colour as his Lotus and later, his B.R.M were.

#6 David McKinney

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 22:07

Not sure about the Marsh Coopers
ISTR photos (b&w) showing them in a plain colour, probably darker than the later ones

#7 Macca

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 12:39

Marsh took part in the 1957 German GP, and nominated it as his 'Race of my Life' for the Autosport feature - the photo with it was colour and showed the same shade of green as his hillclimb Special.


Paul M

#8 Barry Boor

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 19:03

Ta for that, Macca. :up:

#9 Macca

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 21:02

I suddenly got the twitch about my failing memory and feared I was sending Barry to Halfords after the wrong colour.....................so I dug it out:

Posted Image


phew!


Paul M

#10 Roger Clark

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 23:01

Some others:

Glover Trophy
Tommy Bridger (BRP)
Ian Burgess (works)

Aintree 200
Harry Schell (Owen Racing Org- Alan Brown's F2 car, but it's a nice thought)
Keith Ballisat (Equipe Prideaux)

Caen
Dick Gibson, Keith Ballisat (both R Gibson)
George Wicken (driver)
S Lewis-Evans (BRP)

Morocco
Jack Fairman (works)

This excludes cars entered in the F2 class of F1 races.

#11 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 23:11

Will Paul England's run in the German GP count too?

#12 Roger Clark

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 23:38

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Will Paul England's run in the German GP count too?

That was 1957.

#13 Barry Boor

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 23:57

I wonder if BRP were using British Grazing Green as early as that?

I suspect they might have been because Tommy Bridger's car can be seen in a couple of photos in Doug's Cooper book and it looks VERY light.

#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 01:32

Originally posted by Roger Clark
That was 1957.


So were some of the other mentioned examples...

#15 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 07:10

Some colour photos from 1958:

Maurice Trintignant, Dutch GP, at:

http://media.latphot...how=12&x=39&y=8

Roy Salvadori, Belgian GP, at:

http://media.latphot...how=12&x=36&y=5

Jack Brabham, Belgian GP, at:

http://media.latphot.....gian"&show=12

Jack Brabham, French GP, at:

http://media.latphot...how=12&x=20&y=9

Tommy Bridger, Moroccan GP, at:

http://media.latphot.....ccan"&show=12

The factory Brabham and Salvadori cars had a ring of some colour around the nose.

Vince H., Victoria, B.C., Canada

#16 Barry Boor

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 07:52

Here we go again...... :rolleyes: I must say that the Bridger car looks white!

The Works Cooper nose bands varied red, blue, gold and white were all used at some point.

#17 Rob29

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 09:13

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I wonder if BRP were using British Grazing Green as early as that?

I suspect they might have been because Tommy Bridger's car can be seen in a couple of photos in Doug's Cooper book and it looks VERY light.

Fairly sure it was the same pale green from day one in 1958.Maroon or orange noses added in 1959

#18 GIGLEUX

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 19:52

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Some others:

Glover Trophy
Tommy Bridger (BRP)
Ian Burgess (works)

Aintree 200
Harry Schell (Owen Racing Org- Alan Brown's F2 car, but it's a nice thought)
Keith Ballisat (Equipe Prideaux)

Caen
Dick Gibson, Keith Ballisat (both R Gibson)
George Wicken (driver)
S Lewis-Evans (BRP)

Morocco
Jack Fairman (works)

This excludes cars entered in the F2 class of F1 races.


As far as I know except Fairman (Morocco), and Gibson 1560cc (Caen), all the others had 1500cc Coventry-Climax engines!

#19 bradbury west

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 22:00

I know the 1.5litre cars are F2 but at the IV Grosser Preis von Berlin in 1958 you also had Jim Russell, T45 FPF, Mike Taylor T45 ditto, Ian Burgess, AtkinsT43 FPF, George Wicken T43 FPF, and Harry Zweifel T45 FP. The race had single seaters and sports cars , looking at the results sheet, so clearly not an F1 race.

Interestingly, two Borgward H1500RS models, with Bonnier and Mahle, finished 2nd and 5th, in what must have been a a good field.

Roger Lund

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#20 jph

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 09:12

Coopers competing in 1958 Grandes Epreuves:

Moss – Walker T43, Argentina only
Salvadori – works T45
Trintignant – Walker T45 (T43 in GB)
Brabham – works T45
Bridger – BRP T45, Morocco
Burgess – works T45, GB; Atkins T43 Germany
La Caze – self-entered T45, Morocco
Fairman – works T45 Morocco
Gibson – self-entered T43, Germany
Guelfi – self-entered T45, Morocco
Marsh – self-entered T45, Germany
McLaren – works T45, Germany & Morocco
Naylor – self-entered T45, Germany
Picard – walker T43, Morocco
Seidl – Walker T43, Germany

Excludes non-championship races, includes F2 cars running in world championship GPs. Source: Arron/Hughes Complete Book of F1.

#21 Rob29

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 09:21

Originally posted by bradbury west
I know the 1.5litre cars are F2 but at the IV Grosser Preis von Berlin in 1958 you also had Jim Russell, T45 FPF, Mike Taylor T45 ditto, Ian Burgess, AtkinsT43 FPF, George Wicken T43 FPF, and Harry Zweifel T45 FP. The race had single seaters and sports cars , looking at the results sheet, so clearly not an F1 race.

Interestingly, two Borgward H1500RS models, with Bonnier and Mahle, finished 2nd and 5th, in what must have been a a good field.

Roger Lund

It was an F2 race.Sports cars race with 2000cc & 15000cc class run concurrently.

#22 David McKinney

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 10:11

According to my understanding, the Avus race was run in two classes, for sportscars under 1500cc and for F2 cars. Although both classes ran together, contemporary reports gave separate results for each class

#23 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 19:25

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


As far as I know except Fairman (Morocco), and Gibson 1560cc (Caen), all the others had 1500cc Coventry-Climax engines!

As far as I know, you're right!

#24 taylov

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 21:52

RE the 1958 Avus race - Grosser Pries von Berlin - David McKinney is correct, but the event seems to have been a liitle more complicated than he suggests.

The race was held in three parts, each of 20 laps.

Heat One was for the F2 cars and was a round of the British F2 Championship. Entries included Masten Gregory in a Porsche, Cliff Allison and Dennis Taylor in Lotus' and Tony Marsh, Bruce McLaren, Jack Brabham, Jim Russell, George Wicken, Harry Zweifel (CH) and Mike Taylor all in Coopers

Heat Two was for sportscars in two classes; up to 1500cc and up to 2000cc. This heat became a battle between Behra's Porsche and Bonnier's Borgward.

The final "heat" was for everyone who had been classified in the first two races.

However the final published results appear to be based on the aggregate times from whatever two races the car took part in, ie. heats 1 and 3 for the F2 cars or heats 2 and 3 for the sportscars. The latter dominated with Behra's Porsche RSK winning and sportscars filling the top two places, Masten Gregory (3rd) being the best of the F2 drivers.

#25 joe twyman

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 08:57

Regarding the 58 Grosser Preis von Berlin, Burgess was running a T45....According to Atkins' mechanic Harry Pearce, Burgess had a collision on the banking and went off into the infield where the car hit a raised manhole cover. He sent me a photograph and the car is a REAL mess, but definately a T45 with disc brakes and side fuel tanks. Apparently to get it out of the truck they tied the chassis to a tree and just drove the transporter away. I am not sure, but the accident pretty much marked the end of Burgess' career.

The Sheldon black book says that the car Atkins was using in these seasons was a T43, but in actual fact the car was a different chassis and a T45. Atkins ran his T45 in 1958/9 with the chassis number F2-26-57 (same as his '57 T43) to save having to pay purchase tax! Again, sourced from Harry Pearce and photographs of the car with discs, side tanks and a slight crease in the rear section confirm this. I wish I could post these pictures but they are in an album.

The car had two different liveries, one pre accident at Avus and then one following it's rebuild, if you would like to email me Barry (joetwyman@hotmail.com), I will take some photos of the photos in the album and they should give you a good idea of what the car should look like should you wish to include one in your grid.

#26 Barry Boor

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Posted 25 March 2007 - 17:20

Still sorting out Coopers....

Does anyone know who was the entrant of the car that Ron Flockhart almost qualified at Monaco, please?

#27 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 March 2007 - 17:27

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Still sorting out Coopers....

Does anyone know who was the entrant of the car that Ron Flockhart almost qualified at Monaco, please?

Rob Walker.

#28 Barry Boor

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Posted 25 March 2007 - 17:32

Ta!

#29 rudi

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 04:33

Colour images of the La Caze car at the Maroccan GP and some other F2 Cooper entered there:


http://jbbassibey.fr...aroc_1958-2.htm

#30 bradbury west

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 09:38

rudi; many thanks for a link to a brilliant site, many shots in colour. fantastic archives.

Recommended for those with an interest in the '58 GP de maroc
Ferrari, Maserati 250F, Cooper, Vanwall, Lotus 16 etc etc

Roger Lund.

#31 Gary Davies

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 14:20

Oh what a marvellous resource. I've never before stumbled upon such a rich seam of images from that epoch-making race. I can only second Bradbury West's thanks to rudi for providing the link.

I just love the picture of Trintignant looking up at the camera in the pits. And how poignant the picture of Stuart Lewis-Evans on the last page.

But by jingo it's thrown up a couple of "Pity the poor historian" moments, to quote a DSJ article title from decades ago.

Just for the record, I've spotted the following discrepancies:-

1. The 'Grand Prix du Maroc" (hereafter 'GPdM') site clearly shows a Vanwall bearing the number 24 being pushed from the paddock towards the pits. Forix and a favourite site of mine, The Formula One Archives <www.silhouet.com/motorsport/archive/f1/title.html> (hereafter TFOA) claim that Seidel's Centro Sud Maserati bore the number 24. I suspect that 24 was really on the Herrmann Maserati.

2. GPdM depicts a BRM, again behind the pits, carrying number 26. Forix and TFOA think 26 was on Gerino Gerini's Maserati. Elsewhere in GPdM there is a picture of Gerini (running close to Tommy Bridger's Cooper) with the number 28 showing clearly.

3. So Gerini's car carried the number 28. Forix and TFOA think 28 Salvadori's works Cooper. Salvadori's car actually bore the number 30.

4. There's a lovely picture on the site of Graham Hill at speed in the Lotus 16 with the number 36. Forix and TFOA have Hill's number as 32. 32 was in fact on Jack Fairman's Cooper.

Perhaps I've picked up a couple or errors on those two excellent sites. But there again, I concede I may be barking up the wrong tree on the basis that number swapping, for all sorts of spurious and other reasons, was a not unknown phenomenon in days of yore.

#32 bradbury west

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 14:31

And the big bonus must be that they are in colour, many informal, and what brilliant shots of the blue 250F, and the team line-ups. BTW, (I have not checked the books yet) who was francois Picard. I love it when a new-to-me name appears.

Roger Lund.

#33 Gary Davies

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 14:49

Originally posted by bradbury west
And the big bonus must be that they are in colour, many informal, and what brilliant shots of the blue 250F, and the team line-ups. BTW, (I have not checked the books yet) who was francois Picard. I love it when a new-to-me name appears.

Roger Lund.


Look here www.silhouet.com/motorsport/drivers/picard.html

Richard Jenkins' 'Where are they now?' pages inform us that Picard passed on in Nice at the age of 29 April 1996, three days after his 75th birthday.

Of course, it's on the cards that in around 300 years, a descendant of his will be given command of the starship USS Enterprise. ;)

#34 D-Type

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 15:24

Could the numbers anomaly be the use of different numbers for practice to foil the pirate programme printers like the Belgians used to do?

Could a couple of the pictures be from 1957? Vanwall #24 could have the 1957 4-branch exhaust - it's hard to see for certain.

I note that the site doesn't give race numbers when it shows the grid - a curious omission.

Incidentally if you go to the home page you can click on the Union Jack and get an English translation.



#35 oldtimer

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 16:30

Originally posted by D-Type

Could a couple of the pictures be from 1957? Vanwall #24 could have the 1957 4-branch exhaust - it's hard to see for certain.


Looks like a 4 branch exhaust to me.

#36 D-Type

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 19:29

According to the GPdM site, in 1957 Lewis Evans's Vanwall was #24 and Trintignant's BRM was #26, which fits with the paddock pictures so that could explain them, but not the other anomalies that Vanwall picked up.

#37 Barry Boor

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 20:21

Browsing the Motor Sport archives for 1958 I find a nice black & white picture of Ken Tyrrell in an Alan Brown-entered Cooper.

There is no doubt that it was green but it looks MUCH lighter than the 'standard' dark green that most of the private Coopers were painted at that time.

In fact, it looks vaguely metallic. I was proposing to paint my version in an Aston Martinny sort of colour but would appreciate any firm info on the actual shade.

Long shot, I know!