36 replies to this topic

[Kvadrat]

It seems that there can be much more questions "When did they start to...?" in my inquiry on how WDC became Formula One. Previous one was "When did they start to care for pionts?". This time it's "When did they start to collect WDC statistics?"

Today it's natural for any Formula One information source like books, magazines and web sites to have statistics on wins, participations, fastest laps etc for drivers and teams. They collect information on every championship race since 1950 and make all this statistics.

In fifties WDC was based on Grandes Epreuves, then Grande Epreuve term was gone and there were only championship and non-championship Grands Prix and other international races. Then number of non-championship Grands Prix and international races for Grand Prix cars (Formula 1 class) dropped and finally they all disappeared. Grand Prix for Grand Prix cars (Formula 1) became only WDC event. That was the point at which Grand Prix racing became Formula 1 apart from whether it was still WDC before 1981 or Formula One WC after. No other races of this status took place outside WDC. I think it took a couple of years to make people thinking that Grand Prix racing and WDC (possibly already unofficially called Formula 1) are completely synonimus and statisticians found way of counting only WDC events in fifties and sixties to compare performance of various drivers and teams (not already makes).

Today after each race statisticians correct their figures adding wins, poles, fastest laps, leading laps, leading kms an so on. Nothing can be hidden. Every newcomer goes up the carreer points ladder overtaking those lucky drivers who manages to gain 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. points 50 years ago when they did not care for points.

So when did they start to make statistics based on only WDC races?

There can be a book "... Years of Formula 1". 20? 30? 40?

[HDonaldCapps]

As early as 1958 there was a book which had a listing of the first five places for the WDC events -- however, the name of the darn thing escapes me. Rest assured that by the early 1960s this practice was well established, as the first Autocouse annual of 1961 and the Lou Stanley "Grand Prix" books starting in 1959 demonstrate.

[Gary Davies]

Well, a thread noting the modern obsession with statistics (Why do so many people insist on saying 'stastistics??) presses my buttons. Drives me mad.

I hope this is not too irrelevent a sidetrack but I well remember, upon first arriving in The Wide Brown Land some 34 years ago, being utterly hornswaggled at the statistical muniutiae over which followers of aerial pingpong pore endlessly. I even know some of the words, although I know not what the dickens most of them mean - marks, touches, behinds, handballs, tackles, frees (for and against), hitouts, taps, kicks and disposals.

I went to the AFL website and there learnt that Dean Cox of the West Coast Eagles had 595 hitouts during 2005. His mum must be so proud!

It's not only binge-statistics, it reads like something out of the Karma Sutra. :

Thing is, where does statistics obsessiveness get us?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Vanwall
Why do so many people insist on saying 'stastistics??

Same reason people say 'muniutiae', I suppose

(Sorry)

[Vitesse2]

Beat me to it, David ....

On no evidence at all, apart from gut instinct, I'd guess that this stats obsession started in the early 70s when Steve Hirst published "Grand Prix Chronology". A small paperback, with a very brief overview of each season, but with reasonably accurate results of all WDC races (except Indianapolis). This was - AFAIK - the first attempt to collect all the results in one volume: Autocourse and the Stanley books weren't accessible or affordable for most and the early ones were already collectable. There were also the Motor Year Books, but although they covered nearly every year in the 50s, they weren't comprehensive. So you needed a stack of old magazines, in which the coverage could be patchy or inconsistent. I still have my copy, annotated with hundreds of corrections and additions .....

The first F1 Register research was also being published at this time (Formula 1 Record Book, covering 1961-65 only), but Hirst's book paved the way for Mike Lang's "Grand Prix!" which was better on narrative, but patchy and incomplete on stats. Put F1 Register, Lang and Hirst together and you got a bigger picture.

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by David McKinney

Same reason people say 'muniutiae', I suppose

(Sorry)

Oh, lordy, banged to rights. How about, er, i and u are adjacent on the keyboard?

No, didn't think that would cut it.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Same reason people say 'muniutiae', I suppose

(Sorry)

Proberly...

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Beat me to it, David ....

On no evidence at all, apart from gut instinct, I'd guess that this stats obsession started in the early 70s when Steve Hirst published "Grand Prix Chronology". A small paperback, with a very brief overview of each season, but with reasonably accurate results of all WDC races (except Indianapolis). This was - AFAIK - the first attempt to collect all the results in one volume: Autocourse and the Stanley books weren't accessible or affordable for most and the early ones were already collectable. There were also the Motor Year Books, but although they covered nearly every year in the 50s, they weren't comprehensive. So you needed a stack of old magazines, in which the coverage could be patchy or inconsistent. I still have my copy, annotated with hundreds of corrections and additions .....

The first F1 Register research was also being published at this time (Formula 1 Record Book, covering 1961-65 only), but Hirst's book paved the way for Mike Lang's "Grand Prix!" which was better on narrative, but patchy and incomplete on stats. Put F1 Register, Lang and Hirst together and you got a bigger picture.

Didn't Gerald Rose pre-date Hirst?

I suggest that the real increase in the interest in this sort of thing came with the arrival of the personal computer and later the internet, which made the recording, analysis and accessing of all the data so much easier.

[Kvadrat]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
As early as 1958 there was a book which had a listing of the first five places for the WDC events -- however, the name of the darn thing escapes me.

Can you find the book or its name?

Also, Richard and Roger, can you check books of Rose and Hirst, please?

[Vitesse2]

Vladimir: I think Roger was having one of his little jokes ;) Gerald Rose's book stops (I believe, I don't have a copy) in 1909! I read somewhere that he wrote it as therapy while recovering from illness.

Hirst's book was called "Grand Prix Chronology" and was published by Ian Allan Ltd of Shepperton in 1972. ISBN is 0 7110 0292 4. It covers the period 1950-71 only, but as I pointed out above, it's very much been superseded by later work: as he admits in the foreword, it's basically just copied from his magazine collection and I don't think he did much (or any!) further research. There are some annoying errors (Pescarola throughout, for example) but it was a pioneering work and certainly provided me with a lot of base information at the time.

[Kvadrat]

And the book had only WDC statistics?

[Tim Murray]

Yes, as Richard pointed out earlier, it includes all WDC races except Indianapolis 1950 - 60. However, I do wish that the people who produce these works would stop trying to rewrite history. Hirst does it in a fairly minor way (crediting Gregory - but not Shelby - with the points for finishing fourth at Monza '58). This is nothing, however, compared to the Sheldon 'Black Books' which reclassify the finishing order of numerous races in line with the procedure used when they were written, not when the races took place. For example, Ascari is shown finishing third at Monza '53. The Black Books are tremendous works, but seriously flawed because of this, IMHO.

[petefenelon]

The oldest "stats book" I own is Rodney Walkerley's "Motor Racing Facts And Figures" from 1961. I know it's not the oldest by far - William Court considers his own work to be a continuation of Gerald Rose's "A Record Of Motor Racing 1894-1908" which was published in 1909...

[Rob29]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
As early as 1958 there was a book which had a listing of the first five places for the WDC events -- however, the name of the darn thing escapes me. Rest assured that by the early 1960s this practice was well established, as the first Autocouse annual of 1961 and the Lou Stanley "Grand Prix" books starting in 1959 demonstrate.

First Autocourse annual was 1959-I still have it.Also 1960 which was in 2 parts.Don't remember a 1958 book,but the Autocourse magazine which gave full stats of WC races I believe started in 1951.From 1959 it became 'Sporting Motorist' and the stats part was promised to became a quarterly mag.Ended up as as annual.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by petefenelon
The oldest "stats book" I own is Rodney Walkerley's "Motor Racing Facts And Figures" from 1961.

That was the first book I ever bought from some bloke called Lewis ....

Originally posted by petefenelon
I know it's not the oldest by far - William Court considers his own work to be a continuation of Gerald Rose's "A Record Of Motor Racing 1894-1908" which was published in 1909...

There was also the first edition of Monkhouse and King-Farlow's Grand Prix Facts and Figures in 1950. But that, like Court, only gives the first three, as does Sammy Davis' "Motor Racing", but that only covers major races between 1921 and 1932. There's a pretty comprehensive list of pre-war GP winners in Pomeroy's "Grand Prix Car" too.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Yes, as Richard pointed out earlier, it includes all WDC races except Indianapolis 1950 - 60. However, I do wish that the people who produce these works would stop trying to rewrite history. Hirst does it in a fairly minor way (crediting Gregory - but not Shelby - with the points for finishing fourth at Monza '58).

He does acknowledge the "point for sixth place" controversy in his 1958 table though.

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

He does acknowledge the "point for sixth place" controversy in his 1958 table though.

So he does - good for him. I'm ashamed to admit that though I must have read that sentence, it had never really registered with me until the relevant TNF thread appeared.

[Kvadrat]

Common Knowledge for Fangio from Forix:

GP started 51
Wins 24

It's indeed based only on WDC statistics, all other Grands Prix ignored. Who was the first saying that Fangio took part in 51 Grands Prix and won 24 of them?

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Rob29
First Autocourse annual was 1959-I still have it.Also 1960 which was in 2 parts.Don't remember a 1958 book,but the Autocourse magazine which gave full stats of WC races I believe started in 1951.From 1959 it became 'Sporting Motorist' and the stats part was promised to became a quarterly mag.Ended up as as annual.

Doing this from memory so consider the source: The 1959 version of Autocourse became a single issue for some reason that I cannot recall at the moment, but the current line, if you will, of the annuals started in 1961. Prior to 1959 each year was in some shape or form of installments, usually four or so; for 1960 was in two parts, and then for 1961 it was a "true" annual. It was all a bit of a muddle for a few years.

Starting in 1951, Autocourse did provide data on each round of the CSI WDC. It also provided information on all then other "grand prix" events, as well the other major events of the season such as Le Mans, Indianapolis, and so forth.

As for the question that Kvadrat poses, it was probably some showoff in a pub, bar, or at school -- most likely in the late 1950s.... The British made much more of the WDC than anyone else as I recall at the time for purposes readily apparent at the time.

As for the "1958 'point for sixth place' controversy" -- pleeeze.....

[Kvadrat]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Starting in 1951, Autocourse did provide data on each round of the CSI WDC. It also provided information on all then other "grand prix" events, as well the other major events of the season such as Le Mans, Indianapolis, and so forth.

But did it separate WDC races and the rest of GPs?

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Kvadrat


But did it separate WDC races and the rest of GPs?

Autocourse-A review of International Motorsport in 1959-compiled by the staff of Sporting Motorist'
Full stats only of F1 WC races-lap time of every competitor.
Reports and results of World Sportscars & rallies.
New Zealand GP first 17
Lady Wigram Trophy-first 20
etc,for non championship F1,Major F2 & sportscars.

[Roger Clark]

Some people may be interested in the contents of the very early Autocourse. It started in 1951 as a quarterly magazine, the price was 7/6 (37.5p); MOTOR SPORT and Autosport were both 1/6 (7.5p). for the first year Autocourse was multilingual, all articles were in English, French, German and Italian. This was soon dropped. The race reports were brief, usually about a page, the real interest came in the data and the photographs. The first issue contained:

Monte Carlo Rally: report, performance of every competitor on every stage;

Pau Grand Prix: report, specifications of competitors, starting grid, lap position chart, lap times of every competitor on every lap, list of pit stops, time in the pits and reason, previous winners, lap records, lap speed table, circuit map showing elevation, results, six pages of photographs;

An article by Stirling Moss on his approach to racing;

San Remo Grand Prix, similar to Pau,

An article by Johnny Lurani on Giuseppe Farina;

Mille Miglia, report, position of every competitor at each control, results and class winners, description of courses used in previous MMs, four pages of photographs,

An article by Piero Taruffi on his "Twin Boom"

Silverstone International Trophy, similar to Pau and San Remo, but including lap times of supporting races,

An article by Alfred Neubauer on racing tactics;

Results of Sestriere Rally (the first 85 finishers
Results of concours Paris-St Raphael
Results of Rallye des Nieges
Results of Rally Lyon-Chabonnieres
Results of Argentine sports Car race
Results of tour of Sicily
Results of Monza Grand Prix
Results of Tulip Rally
Results of Textile Rally

course maps for several of the above
Brief report and results of Gran Premio Eva Peron and Presidente Peron

Report and results of Marseilles F2 race
Brief report and results of Syracuse Grand Prix
Brief report and results of Richmond Trophy
Brief report and results of Bordeaux Grand Prix

In the next issue they gave us full lap times of the Le Mans 24-hours.

[Kvadrat]

Incredible!

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Kvadrat
Incredible!

Exactly.

I have managed to get copies of the first few years or so of Autocourse a number of years ago and Roger describes exactly what they were like. As Roger mentions, after a few years they did begin to change. The championship events began to get more complete coverage, which would be expected in any case since in those days the championship events were also the major events of the day.

Also as mentioned, I can't recall the first year that the Championship events dominated the coverage, but surely, as I think about it, it must have been prior to 1959?

[Kvadrat]

I'd like to look at Autocourse pages of discussed period. Is it possible to scan and post or e-mail personally to me some of them?

[Rob29]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


Exactly.

I have managed to get copies of the first few years or so of Autocourse a number of years ago and Roger describes exactly what they were like. As Roger mentions, after a few years they did begin to change. The championship events began to get more complete coverage, which would be expected in any case since in those days the championship events were also the major events of the day.

Also as mentioned, I can't recall the first year that the Championship events dominated the coverage, but surely, as I think about it, it must have been prior to 1959?

Correct.The first issue I saw was bi monthly and five shillings.Could not afford it on my pocket money as a schoolboy at the time!By 1956 it was monthly and 2s6d(12.5p) and the first issue I bought contained mone detail I had then seen from the Argentine races. I think it declined after that.

[HDonaldCapps]

I started buying Autocourse in late 1954 and managed to fill in the gaps later on -- only to have all the early ones destroyed by water damage and mildew.

Autocourse was up and down as I recall, but always chock full of information.

[uechtel]

So does anybody here have the issue with the report of the Napoli race of 1951?

I am still searching for some information about the two German participants, Ulmen and Rieß, as I have read, that both their cars were destroyed by acidents. Also the story tells, that Rieß shot away into the lead and then backed off, afraid to have done a jump start, and I would like to know whether that can be confirmed or not. Seems that the German sources ar not too much reliable on foreign events.

[Kvadrat]

I have found interesting statement in Graham Gauld's book Jim Clark Portrait of a Champion published in 1968.

Between June 1962 and January 1968 he was to win another 24, and thus beat Fangio's Grand Prix record.

So we see that already in 1968 only WDC races considered.

Modern statistics: http://www.chicanef1...Fangio&classi=1.

Complete Fangio record: http://www.jmfangio.org/fangclasgp.htm.

Compare 24 and 64 wins respectively.

[David McKinney]

True
In those days, when people were talking about what you call WDC wins, they considered only WDC wins
Then - as now - if you mean Grand Prix wins, you say so

[Kvadrat]

Today, when most of people say "Grand Prix" they mean only WDC races.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Kvadrat
Today, when most of people say "Grand Prix" they mean only WDC races.

Certainly not here.New Zealand GP is for F.Toyota.Every A1GP is a Grand Prix.Almost every race in Argentina & Brazil is a 'Gran Premio'If you mean 'World drivers championship'that is what you need to say? Worst journalism I have seen is from the USA where I have seen 'World Driving Championship'

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Rob29
Worst journalism I have seen is from the USA where I have seen 'World Driving Championship'

Isn't that what Prince Philip competes in?

[Kvadrat]

Does anyone have book World Championship written by Gregor Grant and published in 1959? It's probably the first effort to select WDC from other International events.

[Kvadrat]

1972 edition:

[Kvadrat]

Who was the first saying that Fangio took part in 51 Grands Prix and won 24 of them?

It was someone earlier who had counted 24 wins but in 1969 DSJ argued this figure stating that two shared victories should be counted as one giving total of 23 wins.



This article is quite remarkable because it gives us idea of non-existance of "official" WDC statistics at that time.

[arttidesco]

It was someone earlier who had counted 24 wins but in 1969 DSJ argued this figure stating that two shared victories should be counted as one giving total of 23 wins.



This article is quite remarkable because it gives us idea of non-existance of "official" WDC statistics at that time.

I hate to disagree with DSJ but does this mean Tom Kristensen has 'only' won four Le Mans wins Jacky Ickx only 3, Derek Bell only 2.5 ?

Surely if JMF was at the wheel and took the checkered flag in first place 24 times in Grand Prix races then he won 24 Grand Prix ?