107 replies to this topic

[bruce mansell]

Gentlemen, I need some help with tracing Costin-Nathan history
Does anyone know where any of these cars have dissapeared to?
I have the second Imp engined open car built, having extricated it from a garage in Switzerland where it languished for 30 years.
It's history is pretty clear, having only had two drivers up until 1975 when it was mothballed.
First owner driver was Jean Hauser of Luxemburg, who was a successful hill climb exponent in it. The second owner was Klaus Edel of Cologne, Germany, who raced it in circuit racing.
Third owner, who never drove it, was Hansuli Buchi of Switzerland, and now me, who sure as hell will drive it. after restoration of course.
Anyone have any info where the first one went after Roger Nathan sold it in 1967? or any of the other cars.
hope someone will remembver these fine little cars.
Thanks,
Bruce Mansell
Sydney

[Barry Boor]

Bruce, I am sending you a P.M. which includes an e-mail address for Roger Nathan.

He will be very happy to hear from you as he is working on a book and is desperately trying to locate the remaining cars.

[Gary C]

any photos of the car, Bruce??

[Geoff.Harrison]

I recall seeing Jean Hausers' Costin - Nathan in 1968, Keith Norman and I took a Vixen -Inmp F4 car to Belgium and Luxembourg for a few hillclimbs. Longer and more laid back than UK events - scrutineering consisted of a cursory glance and wheel count - they were surprised when we took the body off UK style ! And we received start money !
Jean Hauser was extremely enthusiastic and would discuss in the local German his cornering style , braking points,etc.,
I think he had a chain of electrical shops in and around Luxembourg .
A couple of years later we took a Costin-Nathan Coupe borrowed from Bob Jarvis but somehow it did not seem the same .

[bruce mansell]

Merry Christmas,
Thanks to all who have replied so quickly, I have been in touch with Roger Nathan who was most helpful, however he can't recall who he sold the prototype to, but he is sure my car was the second one, sold to Jean Hauser. I'm really keen to find the owner of the original car or any other Costin Nathan owner to swap notes before I start the restoration. The car is in remarkable condition with nothing missing or pulled apart. it has a few body mods done, I assume by Team HUBRA, which will need to be removed to get it back to original.
I'll post a terrific photo, provided by Roger, of Jean Hauser in the car in a hillclimb as soon as I can get it off my office computer! We are on holidays right now!
Cheers
Bruce

[T54]

From what I recall in what is left of my fatigued brain cells, the two open cars were called "Astra" and not Costin-Nathan, and one was sold sans engine to a French or Swiss fellow named Moynet, the car re-named "Moynet" and fitted with a SIMCA engine. It was driven at le Mans in 1967 or 1968 (you can verify this on the ACO site I am sure) by Jean Max and Rene Ligonnet but the fuel pump broke and left Ligonnet stranded in the Hunaudieres. After that, I have no idea what happened to the car. That one was I believe, the original prototype with the alloy body. Is that the one you have or is yours fitted with the glass panels?
I remember Roger Nathan driving that open thing and winning at Monthlery in September 1966, humbling the Abarths...
I hope that this helps.
Regards,

T54

[dretceterini]

The Moynet-Simca XS that ran at Le Mans in 1968 with race #54 was a closed car. Is it a different car, or was a roof added??

[bruce mansell]

As far as I know the Moynet-Simca was not a Costin car.
Costin and Nathan were partners in the early days but Costin sold his interest and went away to do other things, leaving Rpoger Nathan Racing Nathan to build most of the 30 odd open cars, coupes and the Astra names cars. As far a s i can tell there were only a very small number of the open cars built, mine is probably the second one which has a very traceable history.

[bruce mansell]

sorry about the typo's in my last post. way too much Christmas cheer!!!
Bruce Mansell

[fausto]

if the memory doesn't fail I read the Moynet was based on a Costin-Nathan chassis, the car returned to Le Mans in 1975, driven by an all female trio, Christine Dacremont, Michelle Mouton and Marianne Hoepfner, with Esso sponsorship....

[T54]

I found more info in a book I have called Sports racing Cars by Pritchard. The Moynet was indeed an "Astra" and Pritchard says that the Costin-Nathan name came later as the coupes were built. The open cars were called Astra and the Moynet is one of them fitted with a home-built roof coupe. Can anyone shed more light on this?

T54

[Tweddell]

The beginning was the Costin Sports Racer , built by Frank Costin in the mid-sixties for Mr. McNamara in California, , where it still is in its private museum (it is the second one, as the first Sports-racer was completly destroyed in its first race). Immediately after this one-off car, Frank began to construct a new, little smaller sports-racer, fitting it with a Roger Nathan prepared Imp engine. So it was named and sold as Costin-Nathan . The first two cars were open ones, all later built ones were coupes. Two coupes ran very successfully at 500km race at Nürburgring with one winning the prototype class up to 1000cc in 1967. The spyder had its best race , when Roger succeeded in beating all the Abarths at Monthlery.
Beeing involved in the construction of the Protos F2 for Mr.Harris, Frank Costin and Roger Nathen split soon afterwards, and Nathan completed and sold the remaining cars as Nathan Imp , blackening only the name Costin in his advertizments. One of the coupes was fitted with an BMW engine, but had no real success in racing. This car was rebuilt in the late 1980ies by Dutch Harm Lagaay, in those days at BMW (today Porsche). It is the brown couloured coupe, which competes today at some historic events.
In 1968 Roger Nathan constructed a new car, a spyder , with nearly the same plywood construction, but a bit different shaped body, also changing from Imp engines to bigger Climax and later Ford Cosworth FVA. Only this car was raced as Astra.
Roger himself raced his Astra, the blue one with orange front. I think only three Astras were built, one was raced successfully in Germany, later Ford BDA engined.
Today one Astra is located in France, (but is raced completly wrong under the name Costin-Nathan, as the owner does not know anything about Costin and Nathan) one Astra was in Sweden, but was sold some times ago.
The Hansuli Büchi Costin Nathan Imp chassis RN 2 was raced extensivly by German Klaus Edel . After he had lots of trouble with rear space-frame and plywood mountings, he tried to sell the car in the 1970ies, but finally it ended in a little Cologne Museum, beeing later detached by Mr. Büchi , who bought it for 4000 German Mark, so the story is told, as space was needed for other cars. Since then the dark blue car remained in a little shed in Swizzerland, nearly untouched , the improovements at the rear body (popped in aluminium) and in the windsceen area were made in its German race period.
Klaus Tweddell

[bruce mansell]

Thanks Klaus for your valued input.
You are quite correct on most points.
You surprise me with the number of Costin Nathan open cars, Roger Nathan thinks there were a few of them made, he admits to not being sure though!
My car is definitely the Buchi car. However the space frames front and rear are still painted the original colours and I could find no evidence of repairs whatsoever, so if they did suffer from damage it was repaired by a real expert.
Klaus Edel has been in touch with me, He bought the car from Jean Hauser of Luxemburg, Hauser had bought it new from Roger Nathan Racing and campaigned it in European hill climbs.
Hansuli Buchi was a racer who told me he had owned and raced doxens of different cars in his carreer, he stopped when historic racing became stupidly expensive and competitive. The Costin Nathan was his last race car purchase and he just parked it in his garage and enjoyed looking at it!
It took me a long time to convince him to sell it to me. It arrives in Australia in a weeks time!
Another firend of mine in the UK has just told me he knows of two Costin-Nathans in a garage fitted with Ford Twin cam engines. He has not given me the fellows contact details yet.
The car I'm really interested in finding is the first Costin Nathan open car which Roger drove himself to many wins and lap records.
I know about the Costin Sports Racer sent to California. It was behind Costin's thinking about a smaller car to take advantage to the very light Hillman imp engine package which he had seen on a visit to Willie Griffiths who worked for Roger Nathan Racing.

T54, thanks for your input, the "Plywood car" rough chronology is as follows, courtesy of Dennis Ortenburger's great book about the life of Frank Costin, Flying on Four Wheels. a recomended read.

1959 Started design of the car to become known as the Marcos
1960 Marcos prototype finished and nicknamed the ugly duckling!
Later, a re-designed front end was introduced which made the car a bit prettier. only about 11 cars were built and Costin and Marsh parted company in 1960 I think.
The basic plywood chassis design was used in later Marcos cars but were not done with Costin's input.
1962 The Ultimate low drag vehicle was commisioned by 3 ex diectors of TVR. This was the prototype for a very efficient coupe with small engine but high performance. The project stalled due to lack of funds and the car was not finished for some time and is now the subject of an article in one of the recent UK car magazines. Sorry can't remember which one, but certainly in the last six months.
1964 Frank was commisioned to design a Sports Racer by Jim Diggory to the group 6 rules. It was to use the Ford twin cam engine. This is the car that is now in California.
1965 The "shopping" car, ply construction again and a weight of 164 pounds for one person and her shopping.
1966 The "son" of the sports racer was conceived after Costin saw the potential of the Imp engine and gearbox. He needed finance for this project and Nathan and his father were the ones ot provide it, and the Imp tuning ability to provide the power. The parnership to build and market the cars was thus formed.
Roger received the first open car and drove it to 6 first and two second places in the '66 season. Not only that but he broke the class lap record on every circuit it apperared on.
The second car went to Jean Hauser of Luxemburg who won the national hill climb title.
The coupe was then designed and called the Costin-Nathan GT coupe. Subsequently Costin and Nathan parted company. The Nathans went on to build modified versions of the CN coupe and open car called Nathan Sports and Nathan GT which was modified and named the Astra towards the end of production. Basically they were too dammed expensive to build as the ply monocoque took a skilled boat builder 6 weeks to construct!
1966/7 The Protos plywood F2 car for Brian Hart.
1967/ 68 The design and building of the Costin Amigo. Based on his work on the Sports Racer and the Costin Nathan cars this was a very slippery coupe with Vauxhall power. Only 9 were built.
This was the last (known) plywood design and was by Costin's own funding and manufacture.
Frank Costin was a genious in my book.
The forgoing is my own interpretaion of the facts, do not take it for gospel and I'm more than happy to be corrected if mistaken in any way.

[Barry Boor]

What is strange to me here is that I tried to get a thread like this going when Roger first started writing his book and it went nowhere.

Thank heavens for Bruce! (And I REALLY mean that!)

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
.....Thank heavens for Bruce! (And I REALLY mean that!)

Oh, you should get on his better side!

Nice workshop, well stocked refrigerator, nice cars around, Good bloke.

[hhh]

I don't know which Astra spyder owner Tweddell refers to as knowing nothing about the car he owns.
There is one Astra spyder that was recently bought by Stefan Gutzwiller (CH) from Yvan Mahe.
Stefan certainly knows what he is talking about and he is even doing research for a book on Costin.
I guess the car is entered under the Costin-Nathan name because of the homologation papers; Stefan certainly knows the real name should be an Astra.
The car is dark red and runs a FVC on carbs.
The wooden parts of the monocoque are clearly visible especially around the dashboard.
It needs sorting and setting up, but it is a very interesting car; it ran at the Istanbul Historic race in October.

[Tweddell]

So this car has changed owner. I met the former French owner some years ago at Nürburgring Grand Prix, when the Astra had obviously its first run in its new hands. When i saw it named as Costin Nathan in the programm, saw the letters Costin Nathan on the front body, I talked to the driver, and unfortunately I had to recognize, that he did not know anything about the origins of that car. Years later i saw it in other events, still declared as Costin Nathan. so I hopfully exspect, that the new owner will race it as an Astra, as Costin had nothing to do with it, except the fact, that Roger took over Franks ideas of using his fabulous plywood chassis layout.

[bruce mansell]

Gentlemen,
I think an Astra is still to be considered a Costin concept, even if it was not directly off his drawing board. However to be true to the manufacturer it must be called a Nathan Astra as that is who built it. In the case of the Costin Nathan it is properly named as both Costin and Nathan had a hand in designing and building it.
Can you imagine a Ford GT40 being called a Broadley Ford GT40, as that is exactly what it is. If a manufacture buys the rights to a design it becomes their own.
Sorry if this view upsets someone but that is the facts. Did Vanwall mention Chapman or Costin the in their car name? one did the suspension the other the body.
Cheers,
Bruce
PS. By the way, when my brain returns to normal after Christmas I'll get some photos on the site.

[wilsongt]

I don't know if this helps - a site advertising an astra spyder, plus its google cache, no idea how long ago the car was for sale sorry, but presumably the car bought by Stefan Gutzwiller

http://www.equipeeur...com/images.php3

http://64.233.183.10..." plywood&hl=en

Regards,
Glenn

[hhh]

That's the car I talked about, in the picture, which raced at Istanbul last November with Gutzwiller.

[bruce mansell]

Many thanks to all those who input to my rapidly expanding CN fact file.
The car is now in the workshop and has had most of the paint stripped off the tub.
What an amazing construction, it is indeed very stiff and also light, I lifted the front off the ground on my own with no difficulty.
We have decided to make a replica tub, nose and rear clip mould, just in case of the unthinkable, as the car will be raced! The replacement tub will be made using laser cut plywood bulkhead frames as they will be stronger and the same weight as the old thin ply with solid timber edging as used by Ronnie and Frank Costin when they built it. When we analysed the design of the tub it is beautifully simple to build with very little required in the form of jigs. It is an exciting project and I fit the seat as if it was designed around me.
There are some old instrument holes in the extreme right hand side of the dash, a big hole for tacho or speedo and 3 x 50 mm holes for Smiths or ??? gauges. Anybody got a photo of this part of the car, so we can see what they are for?
Cheers and thanks,
Bruce

[ian senior]

Have a look at this site to see some more about Ken Appleby's Costin-Nathan. Also some other racing cars he was involved with - Lotus 51, Elden F3 and others..

www.geocities.com/captkenn/index

[David M. Kane]

For what it's worth I drove a F3 Elden in test day at Brands with Tom Pumpelly and Ted Wentz.
Tom tried the Atlantic version and switched to a March after two races. It just wasn't rigid enough so the handling wasn't a match for the Chevrons and the Marches...

At the time I had driven nothing but a FF, so I was more interested in the motor, wing, etc. I was not in the same league as those guys driving-wise.

[Greystone]

While searching for an image for the Motorcycle Racing Nostalgia thread I came across these.

They were taken in the paddock at Brands Hatch during the 1960's (probably 1965 onwards).

The first one is a Costin-Nathan which is why I have posted these in this thread. I don't know what the single seater is but I am sure that there is someone here who can enlighten me.

Andrew

[bruce mansell]

Andrew
Thanks for posting the pics, the Costin Nathan is the prototype with Roger Nathan in white driving overalls hand behind head.
The other car is a Brabham, probably BT18 or earlier car. Hard to tell from head on as you can't see the business end.
It's amazing how many Costin followers have contacted me over the last 3 months. some really interesting stuff coming in and I have found at least two other Spider owners.
Cheers
Bruce

[bradbury west]

In France recently I came across a Costin Nathan with 4 cyl Alpina BMW engine in the museum at les Sables D'Olonne. Like all the cars there it was in fine condition. Photo available for posting if anyone wants to e mail me. No idea of the chassis no, the cars are roped off, but I found the staff there very helpful. I thoroughly recommend the place for a visit as it is full of lesser known French cars, incl a 1939 Panhard X77 Dynamique, as well as some competition cars, plus a couple of non-French.

Roger Lund.

[bruce mansell]

Hi Costin fans,
You can now see a bit more about these cars on www.costins.net
It is a site set up by Joe Tavarni of Specialist Cars in the UK. I have posted a number of pics of my Costin-Nathan Spider on it.
Joe sells the reproduction race car replicas made in the USA and has the rights to the last Costin car design.
Great bloke who has been most helpful to me.
My car is nearly finished and looking very good in it's originall deep red. Hope to race it in December at Wakefield Park for the first time in over 35 years! May take it to Europe next year for some fun!
Cheers
Bruce Mansell

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by bradbury west
In France recently I came across a Costin Nathan with 4 cyl Alpina BMW engine in the museum at les Sables D'Olonne. Like all the cars there it was in fine condition. Photo available for posting if anyone wants to e mail me. No idea of the chassis no, the cars are roped off, but I found the staff there very helpful. I thoroughly recommend the place for a visit as it is full of lesser known French cars, incl a 1939 Panhard X77 Dynamique, as well as some competition cars, plus a couple of non-French.

Roger Lund.

On my recent visit there, with the generous co operation of the museum owner, I was able to get under the bonnet and see the chassis no on the plate on the bulkhead

SR/2/68/033

hope that helps

Roger Lund.

[bruce mansell]

Hi Roger,
Many thanks for the French cars info.
Wish I had known about this earlier as we have just spent a month in UK, France and Belgium!
I have just visiited the first owner and racer of my Costin Nathan Spider, Jean Hauser in Luxembourg. He is now in his early 80's but still in great shape. he gave me a lot of photos of the car and him racing it, which all go to help the provenance. Amazingly the mid sixties colour photos are very good and will help a lot with detail in the finalising of the rebuild.
It turns out he was the National Driving Champion in 1968 driving my car. His trophy cabinet is something to see!
I also visited Joe Tavarni in the UK who is the owner of the rights to the last Costin design, the Costin roadster.
He has the mule called the Dustbin too, which is a time warp with mini engine / gearbox mid mounted. Apparently it goes like stink and was suposed to leave a Cosworth engined Seven in it's wake, particularly on twisty stuff.
Another highlite of the trip was a visit to see fellow Costin Nathan owner, Alexander Boswell. He has a coupe which he races in the UK.
We spent a wonderful day at the Seven's 50th celebrations in Norforlk where at least 400 cars appeared.
Sadly only a handful of S1 / S2 / S3 Lotus built cars, mostly later Caterhams on display.
Most interesting was the fact that a lot of owners from Europe and Scandinavia made the journey to be part of it.
Next day was spent at Donnington for the See Red meeting at which an Australian friend, Richard Longes, ran his Cooper and Type 35 Bug. Very busy boy with 4 practice sessions and 4 races in the one day.
The W125 Mercedes was given 6 laps with Tony Dron at the wheel. The sound and smell of it was enough to make your hair stand on end. Fabulous!
A great trip, and now back to work finishing off the BT21 rebuild, before attacking the final assembly of the Costin Nathan. Still looking for my next open wheeler project, might have a BT9 to do which will be interesting.
Cheers and many thanks,
Bruce Mansell

[ian senior]

Originally posted by bruce mansell
Hi Roger,
I also visited Joe Tavarni in the UK who is the owner of the rights to the last Costin design, the Costin roadster.
Bruce Mansell

Can you tell us any more about that car, Bruce? Is this the TMC Costin, or a later design?

[Barry Boor]

Bruce, did you make contact with Roger himself while you were over here?

Or is he back in Africa now?

[johnwilliamdavies]

Originally posted by ian senior


Can you tell us any more about that car, Bruce? Is this the TMC Costin, or a later design?

http://www.specialistautomotive.com/

They produce the Costin Roadster. Costin-Nathan replicas were produced by Auto 14.



---------------------

Welsh Motor Sport History

[Joe T]

Hello

Couldnt resist posting on this as I am mentioned above.

I can verify Bruce is a great guy, heres a link to some excellent pictures of his rebuild
http://silicon.fastn...ist.php?cid=156
It was really good to meet him.

These and many more pictures actually resides in the gallery on the Costin Forum I setup which has move from Costins.net to http://www.costins.co.uk
I only set that up as when starting to do the Roadster project I got loads of email from Costin enthusiasts so thought it a good idea.

I should be showing a rolling Costin Sports Roadster at the Detling car builder show this easter, progress has been slower than expected due to the unfinished nature of the project but we are nearly there now.

[double4trouble]

We have a good family friend who has a Costin Nathan car.
I need some information on a Costin Nathan car.
Roger Nathan sold him the car in 1967 as an open top car with an imp engine in it. My friend changed the car with the help of Roger by putting a hard top on it, and swopping the imp engine for a Lotus twin cam and Hewland gearbox. He still as the original open doors and windscreen. If anyone can help me find much information on it or put me in touch with Roger Nathan it would be a grate help. Has I believe this car could be the first prototype.

Thanks

Mike

[D-Type]

Start here, or with An Adventurous Life: The Costin-Nathan Story by Roger Nathan and Stephanie Gutzwiller (Paperback - 27 Aug 2006), or there's http://www.costins.co.uk/

All found using the "Search BB" button on the top right of your screen

[bradbury west]

I am sure that Barry Boor will put you in touch. RN owns a 4x4 garage in N Wales. Try a google search also
Roger Lund

[double4trouble]

We have a good family friend who has a Costin Nathan car.
I need some information on a Costin Nathan car. Roger Nathan sold him the car in 1967 as an open top car with an imp engine in it. My friend changed the car with the help of Roger buy putting a hard top on it and swopping the imp engine for a Lotus twin cam and Hewland gearbox. He still as the original open doors and windscreen. If anyone can help me find much information on it or put me in touch with Roger Nathan it would be a grate help. Has I believe this car could be the first prototype

Thanks
Mike

[zahistorics]

Some pics for you:
Zwartkops 1 Feb 2008:




Zwartkops 2 Feb 2008:


Sorry I don't remember any details.

[Barry Boor]

Mike, the last I heard from Roger he was in west Africa mining for diamonds.



I don't know if he is back here yet but I will investigate.

[double4trouble]

thank you for your replys its been a grate help.
i know that Roger Nathan did race the car in 1966 as a open top with a imp engine in it and that he sold it to my friend in 1967 which he raced 2-3 times in this country. any help finding out as much info on it would be grate.

Thanks

Mike

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by double4trouble
We have a good family friend who has a Costin Nathan car.
I need some information on a Costin Nathan car. Roger Nathan sold him the car in 1967 as an open top car with an imp engine in it. My friend changed the car with the help of Roger buy putting a hard top on it and swopping the imp engine for a Lotus twin cam and Hewland gearbox. He still as the original open doors and windscreen. If anyone can help me find much information on it or put me in touch with Roger Nathan it would be a grate help. Has I believe this car could be the first prototype

Thanks
Mike

You should be able to contact Roger via: sales@northwalesmpv.co.uk
That is the e-mail address given for his book, so I'm sure they are happy about it being publicised.

[Barry Boor]

No, the North Wales 4x4 business was wound up at least two years ago. Having moved it 4 times Roger decided it was just dead in the water and gave up on it completely.

On three occasions his establishment was on a main road and three times they built a by-pass that took all the passing trade!

[The Mountaineer]

Hello double4trouble

There's a Costin Nathan Spider actually under restoration in Switzerland. His owner would like to get in touch with you. Please watch your PM's.

[double4trouble]

thought you would like to see a pic off the car guys.....it needs a bit of work.
and thanks again

Mike

[double4trouble]

Costin-Nathan

[double4trouble]

Costin-Nathan
it as deffo got the full alloy body

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by double4trouble
Costin-Nathan

That looks like a major job - rather you than me!

Best of luck.

[double4trouble]

Stephen

what u like....a bit of paint, pump the tires up, turn the key and yr away lol

Mike

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by double4trouble
Stephen

what u like....a bit of paint, pump the tires up, turn the key and yr away lol

Mike

I do like a bit of positive thinking but I think you may be a tad over-ambitious.

[Giraffe]

Originally posted by double4trouble
thought you would like to see a pic off the car guys.....it needs a bit of work.
and thanks again

Mike

....er, so does the garage! What's that old motorcycle on an English plate doing in the background?!?!