85 replies to this topic

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Kpy

Agreed, Richard. It started out with motorsport....

And it stayed pretty much so, until post #45...

I've got no problem with folk venting their frustration with a system which they perceive fails our sport; and the Honours List will, by definition, spill over into other spheres.

Like Roger, I'm not normally attracted to these topics either - but seeing as I'm here I'll agree that if ever there was a deserving, non-honoured motorsporting Brit, it's John Surtees.

We'll never see a combined two & four wheeled champion again, and I include Valentino Rossi - the best chance of a repeat for decades - in that forecast.





Dolphins?

[Wolf]

Originally posted by Twin Window

We'll never see a combined two & four wheeled champion again, and I include Valentino Rossi - the best chance of a repeat for decades - in that forecast.

Especially him, Twinny- after the standards of racing he got accustomed to in MotoGP, do You really reckon he'd manage to stay awake throughout F1 race?

[Antoine Pilette]

Are those knighthoods not hereditary I suppose?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Antoine Pilette
Are those knighthoods not hereditary I suppose?

No, knighthoods have never been hereditrary
Baronetcies and peerages are - but not the 'life peerages' which are awarded these days

[KJJ]

There's only been one hereditary knighthood ( and David is right , the correct title is baronetage) granted since 1965, to Denis Thatcher, hence Sir Mark.

If anyone feels strongly enough about John Surtees' omission, they should nominate him here .

[Antoine Pilette]

If i'm correct, the highest title granted after the war to now is Lordship (Peerage) in the UK (hereditary and not)?
I suppose for it to be hereditary it must come with a piece of land or those honorific tittles stopped being thru to the letter a while ago?
I know some sort of law passed in the last 5-10 years forbiding now to sale titles to foreigners but is there an exception for granting honorific titles to foreigners?

[ian senior]

Originally posted by flat-16
One of the things I like about TNF is that politics, other than those pertaining to Racing, are kept out of the group, which means we can celebrate our common bond regardless of political persuasion.

In light of the above, I'm a hypocrite stating my opinion...oh hell, it's the holiday season.

The current UK govt. have a penchant for taking pot-shots at the "ex ruling class"; e.g they have no problem causing the extermination of thousands in an illegal war, yet *care* deeply about the country fox... e.g the abolition of hereditary peers... etc etc

My take on the devaluation of the honours system (the New Year's "Dishonour List"), with savages such as Ramsay and Jagger (Ronald McDonald's created plenty of revenue for GB-plc, surely he deserves a knighthood on that premise?) receiving awards, instead of worthy contenders such as JS or Neville Duke (the mind boggles there...), is that Noo Labour / Bliar quite wilfully want to degrade the status of a knighthood - the intention being an extension of the kind of inverse-snobbery we've witnessed in the other examples.

Call me a cynic if you will.

Excuse the hastily written post - must get back to bed as 'flu rages.

Justin

edit:

Spot-on!

Happy New Year to all TNFers!

For a post that started by praising the non-party political element of TNF, it didn't 'alf disintegrate into an anti-Government rant.....

[flat-16]

I knew that post would come back to haunt me ;)

A few years back, I noticed Surtees' name on an article minus MBE and was horrified...until I found out he actually had been awarded one (as DCN has stated), which I forgot at the time of ranting here

Although I stand by my comments on Bliar and his cast of psychopaths, this is the last time I'll mention p*l*t*cs for the reasons in my last post - excuse my lack of self-control (I did own up to my hypocrisy ).

Attacking the govt. aside though, there is a serious point in this thread when you consider the contribution made to the country by GB's automotive engineers and the apparent reluctance to aknowledge their efforts by those in Westminster (it should be noted that this "reluctance" has existed under governments of both political persuasions).

I guess the aforementioned aren't foul-mouthed philandering egotists, with smack habits, so they can count themselves out of the honours running

Justin

[ian senior]

Originally posted by flat-16
I knew that post would come back to haunt me ;)

Attacking the govt. aside though, there is a serious point in this thread when you consider the contribution made to the country by GB's automotive engineers and the apparent reluctance to aknowledge their efforts by those in Westminster (it should be noted that this "reluctance" has existed under governments of both political persuasions).

I guess the aforementioned aren't foul-mouthed philandering egotists, with smack habits, so they can count themselves out of the honours running

Justin

The trouble is, Governments (and the City) just don't like manufacturing and engineering. Which is one of the reasons why we don't have a proper motor industry anymore.

Back to honours. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking these are sprinkled around like confetti, and have been for a long time. Surely they should only be given to someone who has done something henceforth unprecedented and unlikey to be repeated for a long time, or who has made a major contribution to the country and improved its way of life and/or international standing, or who has committed some outstandingly brave event.

John Surtees fits into the first criteria - first (and so far only( man to win world championships on both 2 and 4 wheels. So did Jack Brabham - won the championship in a car of his own construction.

So hard luck Tom Jones, Bruce Forsyth, and the rest. The only reason you have your gongs is as kind of long service award and you wouldn't get one under my system.

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

HM Gov weren't all that keen on rewarding tax exiles then..

...but now they find them ideally placed to provide PMs & MPs with free holidays in the sun....

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Antoine Pilette
If i'm correct, the highest title granted after the war to now is Lordship (Peerage) in the UK (hereditary and not)?
I suppose for it to be hereditary it must come with a piece of land or those honorific tittles stopped being thru to the letter a while ago?
I know some sort of law passed in the last 5-10 years forbiding now to sale titles to foreigners but is there an exception for granting honorific titles to foreigners?

Honorary knighthoods are occasionally granted to citizens of foreign countries who have performed meritorious service in or on behalf of the United Kingdom - IIRC these are in the personal gift of the Queen. Colin Powell, Rudy Giuliani, Steven Spielberg and Bob Geldof are among recent recipients. They are not entitled to prefix their names with 'Sir', but can use the letters associated with the order in which they are enriolled. Thus, Colin Powell, as a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath, may style himself "General Colin Powell KCB".

Denis Thatcher was the exception which proved the rule - hereditary peerages were abolished in the 50s I think - today's Life Peers are all Barons or Baronesses, but Denis' wife was already a Baroness in her own right. I always wondered why they did that, especially as Mark's such a prat.

Hereditary peerages always used to come with an estate (and consequent obligations to the Crown), but there have been plenty of impoverished aristos over the years.

Simon:

[Richard Jenkins]

Getting back on topic - one formula 1 legend was "knighted" on the 1st January...

Carlos Reutemann was awarded the highest honour possible in Argentina for services to motor racing and.. ooh.. er.. politics!

Not quite sure whether it means he has something by his name as I don't know how the award system works in Argentina - the article was in the Gazzetto della Sport on the 1st January but it's in Italian (obviously)

[WGD706]

A petition in Britain is calling for the knighthood of formula one legend John Surtees.

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Knight John Surtees, the only formula one and motor bike world champion," the opening stanza of the petition, located on the website of British PM Gordon Brown (http://petitions.pm....r-John-Surtees/), reads.

Supporters of Surtees, who is 73, have until May next year to sign the petition.

Surtees won the 500cc championship in 1956, and several successive world motorcycle titles, but four years later, at the age of 26, he switched to four wheels with the famous F1 team Lotus.

The Briton made an immediate impact, finishing second in his second grand prix, scoring pole in his third, and winning the title with Ferrari in 1964.

In the 1970s, Surtees ran his own eponymous team.

Other Britons to receive knighthoods in recent years include Sir Frank Williams, Sir Stirling Moss (both 1999) and Sir Jackie Stewart (2001).

[bschenker]

Surtees won the 500cc championship in 1956, and several successive world motorcycle titles, but four years later, at the age of 26, he switched to four wheels with the famous F1 team Lotus.

Sorry, your sure about Lotus, I think to remember the name of Lola!

[Alan Cox]

Originally posted by WGD706
Surtees won the 500cc championship in 1956, and several successive world motorcycle titles, but four years later, at the age of 26, he switched to four wheels with the famous F1 team Lotus.

Quite correct. John Surtees' first four Grands Prix were in a works Lotus 18, in 1960.

[David McKinney]

With apologies for being pedantic, but this isn't strictly true either:

Originally posted by WGD706
...he switched to four wheels with the famous F1 team Lotus.

He switched to four wheels with a private Formula Junior Cooper, later run by the Tyrrell Team, then raced a private Cooper in Formula 2. Then joined the famous F1 Lotus team

[bschenker]

It's possibly John wins the first GP on Lola ?

[Doug Nye]

Surely the significant point in John's introduction to 4-wheeled racing is that the first pure car meeting he EVER attended was the Goodwood event in which he first drove Ken's FJ Cooper, and once he was invited to drive the Team Lotus 18s his immediate record was as follows:

DEBUT - BRDC International Trophy, Silverstone - qualified 6th - ran 4th - retired early.
British GP, Silverstone - q. 11th - SECOND
Silver City Trophy, Brands Hatch - q.6th - 6th after pit stop slipping clutch
Portuguese GP, Oporto - POLE POSITION - LED RACE - SET FASTEST LAP - crashed when foot slipped off oil-soaked brake pedal...

At the time - although the Lotus 18 was a sensationally quick new car - Surtees proved himself a sensationally quick (if unpopularly hard-charging) new driver.

DCN

[ex Rhodie racer]

I missed this thread the first time around, but have just read through it. Someone suggested JS has been overlooked because of his political leanings. Although another poster asked what these were, no reply has been forthcoming.
So, could I ask the question again as I wish to understand the situation better.
Could someone enlighten us?

[ensign14]

Is it appropriate to mention living drivers' political beliefs? They are somewhat personal, of course. I can mention what's publically available, in Peter Manso's "Vroom" Surtees indicated he was left-wing, which of course is pretty infra dig with today's Government. And as JS seems not to suffer fools gladly I wonder whether he has put enough backs up to prevent a K. Or maybe he's refused one.

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by ensign14
Is it appropriate to mention living drivers' political beliefs? They are somewhat personal, of course. I can mention what's publically available, in Peter Manso's "Vroom" Surtees indicated he was left-wing, which of course is pretty infra dig with today's Government. And as JS seems not to suffer fools gladly I wonder whether he has put enough backs up to prevent a K. Or maybe he's refused one.

I agree it´s probably inappropriate, however, it was sited as a possible reason for his not being knighted, so it does make it relevant. Also, if his views are already public knowledge, then I fail to see the problem, if there is one.

[Barry Boor]

Sadly, apart from the 2000 Guineas race at Mallory Park, Surtees never won any other race in the Lola.

A travesty really as he was very quick at most circuits.

[2F-001]

Did you mean any other race?
Surely he won a few on his way to his CanAm title in '66 - and another (I think) sometime later when the McLaren steamroller faltered for a moment.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Did you mean any other race?
Surely he won a few on his way to his CanAm title in '66 - and another (I think) sometime later when the McLaren steamroller faltered for a moment.

That's right, three in 66, St Jovite, Riverside and Las Vegas, and Las Vegas again in the following year after both factory M6s suffered blown engines, all Surtees victories in Lola T70s of course.

[Autofair]

I think that John should stay the champion that he is, I wince everytime I hear, Sir Stirling!

Autofair

[2F-001]

Barry - on re-reading, I notice that you said "the Lola", so I assume you were thinking specifically of the Mk4 and F1 races, and that he didn't win his first GP in such a car - a possibility asked about further back up the thread a way..
Apologies if we seemed to be picking you up on the wrong point!

[David McKinney]

And he also won the New Zealand Grand Prix in a Mk4 ;)
(and wasn't the 2000 Guineas a libre race?)

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by Autofair
I think that John should stay the champion that he is, I wince everytime I hear, Sir Stirling!

Autofair

Definitely cringeworthy, isn´t it.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by David McKinney

(and wasn't the 2000 Guineas a libre race?)

NO-definitely an F1 race-held the same day as the one I went to at Crystal Palace-seem to remember available entry was split betwen the two-Ferrari did not bother with either.

[David McKinney]

You're quite right, Rob
I was confusing it with the race at the 1963 Whitsun Mallory, which was a libre event, and was also won by a Bowmaker Lola (in this case driven by a 19-year-old New Zealander)

[Barry Boor]

Yes, Tony, I should have been MUCH more specific. I was talking solely about the F.1 Lola.

Rob, I was at the Palace that day too. The Mallory race did spoil the entry. We had 4 quick cars and numerous makeweights (all due respect to the makeweights.) While Mallory had a somewhat classier entry.

[KJJ]

Originally posted by ensign14
Is it appropriate to mention living drivers' political beliefs? They are somewhat personal, of course. I can mention what's publically available, in Peter Manso's "Vroom" Surtees indicated he was left-wing, which of course is pretty infra dig with today's Government. And as JS seems not to suffer fools gladly I wonder whether he has put enough backs up to prevent a K. Or maybe he's refused one.

Just in the interests of historical accuracy perhaps people should read the Surtees interview in Manso's Vrooom and make up their own mind as to how left wing it was. I'd say, not very.

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by KJJ



Just in the interests of historical accuracy perhaps people should read the Surtees interview in Manso's Vrooom and make up their own mind as to how left wing it was. I'd say, not very.

Can we have a link?

[Rob29]

Surtees certainly deserves some sort of award for a record unlikely ever to be broken-quickest progression from first every car race to F1 podium?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


Can we have a link?

Yes.

[BRG]

Ho hum, another year, another snub for JS.  There is much agonising that Andy Murray, the man who gives dour Scots a bad name, has not been knighted for winning one (1) tennis match.  And that David Beckham has not been knighted for his far longer and far more distinguished career of being married to Victoria.  Not a murmur that Surtees is still unrecognised.