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The cutaway drawing and its artists


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#551 jayban

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 23:12

[QUOTE]Originally posted by werks prototype
... if you still ever get the desire to produce the hand drawn material. For example, one of your own personal favourite cars, in your own time, just because you can?

I still do car paintings occasionally (when I get a lot of spare time - which isn't often)

-but I have no desire to produce them as cutaways - I see too much of that kind of stuff in my day to day work to find it a source of relaxation!

Jeremy

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#552 eldougo

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 08:01

Originally posted by Stephen Miller


The model in question represents the car Gurney drove to victory at Mosport in 1968 a few weeks after his 2nd place at Indy. Yes it did indeed have what was described in that era as an "exhaust pipe brace"(nudge, nudge, wink, wink!) At Indy in '68 he had a small single plate attached to the left exhaust pipe only( left side weight bias, more load on the left exhaust pipe!?!) By the time of Mosport it grew to span both pipes with a small bent up section across the rear( for added strength no doubt!).

"Exhaust pipe braces" at Indy which may have been a contributing factor to downforce, actually date back to Gurney's #31 in 1966. Official qualifying photos clearly show his #31 as the only Ford Quad cam with that kind of exhaust pipe bracing. All Gurney Eagles including Hulme, Gurney& Grant as well as the Yarborough Vollstedt in 1967 included similar exhaust pipe bracing(weak pipes?). In 1968 there were 3 other Eagles with exhaust pipe braces at Indy in addition to Gurney's. By 1969, as you so correctly observe, wedges and winglets were the rage!

Stephen



Thanks for that info Stephen. :cool:

#553 eldougo

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 08:05

Originally posted by fines
But the first wing on an Indy Car was Smokey Yunick's in 1962, of course - and it was a bit more substantial than those "exhaust braces", too...;)

Hi Fines Do we have any pics of the car i sure cannot see any wing in any i have of the Jim Rathmann in1962

#554 jayban

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 10:28

For Werks Prototype

Bruno Betti's Montecarlo


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Regards
Jeremy

#555 Tony Matthews

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 10:43

Originally posted by Robin Fairservice
At school I had an Art teacher who said in my report one year that I would never get any where if I continued to rely on a ruler and compass for drawing!


Sorry Robin, I meant to comment on this line, but forgot! It is important to have some basic freehand drawing skills to illustrate well in the traditional fashion, or at least that is my conclusion, but it is afterall called 'technical illustration' and I can't see the problem with using simple tools, straight edges and curves. Jim Allington was pretty good at dividing an elipse into 30-odd steps freehand to draw a gear, but he was not as interested in total accuracy as I am, and you need a compass and straight edge to do that.

If you go back to my Ilmor Chevy 265B working drawing you will see that I have done just that to determine the positions of the teeth on the clutch plates. Jim would draw his wire wheels his way, I construct mine, and I enjoy doing it. The tedium sets in when you have to construct it, draw it, press it through onto the finished artwork in two or three stages and then paint each spoke! But that's my problem, that's how I choose to do it and get the effect that I want. If I can find an examlpe of a 'constructed' wire wheel I'll post it.

#556 Tony Matthews

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 10:57

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Here it is, Robin, from the cutaway of the Aston Martin DB3S.

Thanks for posting the Betti Montecarlo, Jeremy, the Betti brothers were very good and very prolific! It helps to have the demand from such magazines as Quattroroute, but there has always been a great support for artwork in Italy.

#557 jayban

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 12:08

Thanks for posting the Betti Montecarlo, Jeremy, the Betti brothers were very good and very prolific! It helps to have the demand from such magazines as Quattroroute, but there has always been a great support for artwork in Italy.



Hi Tony
I think it's the Italian obsessive appetite for detail. Have you noticed Autosprint is always full of spy photos way before anyone else and they analyse everything. Autosprints Yearbook always had dramatic illustrated covers as well (cant remember the artists name but his work was very slick) - I haven't seen any of the recent Yearbooks so I don't know if they still have the same feel.

Did you ever get any work from Italian sources?

Jeremy

#558 Tony Matthews

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 12:31

Originally posted by jayban
Did you ever get any work from Italian sources?


No, not directly, Ferrari were helpful with my F300 cutaway, i.e gave me access, and more helpful with info. for the F2000 project, mainly because the F300 had paved the way! However, the promised works drawings arrived in a rather haphazzard way and were sometimes missleading. I think I have already mentioned the 80° (done it - the ° I mean!) V10 drawings intermixed with the 90° ones - hours of fun!

There was serious talk of me doing a cutaway of the Enzo but like so many proposed projects it withered on the vine. Pity.

#559 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 16:48

Thanks Tony for your replies. For me drafting was an apprenticeship into engineering. I worked my way off the drawing board into the design side, using slide rules of course and directing a team of more junior staff who did the detail drawings. My life eventually became full of reports, correspondence, and meetings. My youngest son decided to becaome a dratsman and was trained as a CAD drafter, eventually becoming a part tile lecturer. Your step by step drawings of a wire wheel were fascinating, and I can see the circle that you used to get the detail on the ellipse in their correct locations. I could do something cruder, but not to your precise standards.

I just enjoy the artistry of people like you.

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#560 macoran

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 21:49

Originally posted by jayban


Hi Tony
I think it's the Italian obsessive appetite for detail. Have you noticed Autosprint is always full of spy photos way before anyone else and they analyse everything. Autosprints Yearbook always had dramatic illustrated covers as well (cant remember the artists name but his work was very slick) - I haven't seen any of the recent Yearbooks so I don't know if they still have the same feel.

Did you ever get any work from Italian sources?

Jeremy


Bruno Betti often did the pre-launch drawings, Giorgio Piola the engineering detail sketches, but I think you are referring to Antonio Sassi, who very often ... months in advance would come up with a "it might look like this" drawing.

#561 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 21:58

Have these been mentioned?

http://www.kaneroger...knoseprint.html

http://www.kaneroger.../digital/3.html

Vince H.

#562 Tony Matthews

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 22:40

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Peter Dron has asked me to post this interesting cutaway, much to my surprise it seems my skills in this department are minutely better than his! I will transcribe his notes and add them tomorrow.

#563 Stephen Miller

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 01:41

Originally posted by eldougo

Hi Fines Do we have any pics of the car i sure cannot see any wing in any i have of the Jim Rathmann in1962


I think the Smokey wing was only used in practice. It was pretty substantial.

There is a picture of the GMP model with wing in this document.

http://www.fireballr...key_yunick1.htm

Stephen

#564 eldougo

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 07:35

:up:

Thanks Stephen for that link great....I do like the man he was a one off that for sure.

#565 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 10:22

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread to post this as it seems to have turned into a model forum, but as this is to accompany an illustration posted earlier, here goes:-

Re: Rolls Royce V16 Quad Turbo.

Peter Dron wrote " ...do you know of Michael Stirm, a German exponent of the art? The attached cutaway first appeared in (I think) 'Auto Motor und Sport' (the Evil Empire) and this very bad photo of mine is taken from 'Fast Lane', April 1987. I got Brian Hatton to do an illustration of a Bentley coupe and wrote some silly copy to go with it. Some readers believed it was real, despite this paragraph, with an idea parodying Audi's then-new Pro-con 10 safety system:

As an optional extra, it will be possible to specify a new safety device, Pro-Pel 16. In the event of a frontal impact, this system, consisting of a series of hydraulic rams, forces the entire engine/transmission forwards with a force of 5000lb/sq in.

I have tried googling "Stirm", but have drawn a blanc so far."

#566 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 10:30

Computer animation has killed the wonderful cut-away line illustration that the likes of Tony, Alan and me were trained to do and try and make a living from. Take a look at this, very impressive...but I would still prefer producing artwork by hand, not a computer keyboard.
http://link.brightco...tid=10497901001

#567 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 10:45

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Take a look at this, very impressive...


Yes it is Andrew, it doesn't surprise me that cutaways have lost a lot of their appeal - but I have no desire to sit at a computer producing work like that, and I wonder how the people that do can feel happy that someone else's software is doing all the rendering, etc. The more digitization, the less my interest, but I'm not the market.

#568 alansart

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 13:08

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Computer animation has killed the wonderful cut-away line illustration that the likes of Tony, Alan and me were trained to do and try and make a living from. Take a look at this, very impressive...but I would still prefer producing artwork by hand, not a computer keyboard.
http://link.brightco...tid=10497901001


I've tried to get the same result from computer art as I did from paint and airbrush, but I sometimes feel I'm fighting a losing battle :

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#569 werks prototype

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 14:46

Originally posted by jayban
For Werks Prototype

Bruno Betti's Montecarlo


Posted Image

Regards
Jeremy



Thanks very much for that Jeremy, I did try looking for this image after you tipped me off that Betti had, had a crack at this car. I have always been interested in this car and last year managed to see it in 'person' externally at Goodwood in the Martini livery. Really fascinating. Thanks once again for locating this cutaway image of the car.

#570 jayban

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 15:16

It can be done Alan.

I have been on both sides of the fence here.
I ( like Tony, Andrew and Yourself ) was trained in the traditional methods way back in the seventies and spent many years drawing, masking, airbrushing and painting ( usually into the early hours).

About 20 years ago I was working out of an agency in the West End and they were beginning to introduce computers for layout and page makeup tasks. I was lucky enough to be offered some free training by the agency (even though I was freelancing for them!)
Just a few weeks of trying out the various Drawing and Photo Imaging packages told me enough to realise that the writing was on the wall and I could either swim hard or sink slowly.
Lots of my illustrator colleagues couldn't grasp it (or refused to) and have gone off to do other things. I have tried to remain dispassionate about the 'art' side of it all and just regard the changes as inevitable. Number One priority for me is that it is a job and it pays the bills. 2006 was my 30th year as a freelance artist and considering the current work climate I am glad I took the opportunities when they came my way.
I have now progressed into the dark and mysterious world of 3D software and although I will probably never be on Pixars list of 'wanted illustrators' I have to admit to rather enjoying learning something new everyday.

The computer route does have its pros and cons - the pros are mainly that you can change things with ease - the main con is that Clients think the computer does all the work (a myth - it's just another tool!) and they want twice as much for half the money!

I do miss the airbrushing sometimes - for the kicks of the sense of achievement (but for work I can live without it)


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I did this several years back for Honda - the pencil work was done in the traditional way (not by me this time) and then scanned and I did the colour work in Photoshop.

Jeremy

#571 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 15:57

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
...someone else's software is doing all the rendering, etc.


I may have overstated the case here, Jeremy, a habit of mine, and I hope you didn't take offence. I think your Honda cutaway is excellent, and I think your early 'traditional' grounding must be a help in achieving these results. Perhaps I'm wrong there, too! It doesn't alter my attitude towards working on a computer, however - it doesn't interest me.

#572 jayban

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 16:35

Hi Tony

No offence taken. I can entirely sympathise where you are coming from - if I had been drawing the subjects that you have for some 30 plus years I would feel more than a bit miffed at the rug slowly disappearing from underfoot. (I noticed recently how difficult it is to even get some of the materials these days - artboard etc.)

My work has to a large extent been occupied by drawing things that were/are hard to get excited about ( interspersed with the odd gem that I could get my teeth into!) so anything that makes life easier is a blessing.
I would agree that my background probably does give me some advantage over some of the 'greener' artists that are just starting out (some that I have come across recently are geniuses on a keyboard but can't draw for toffee!) - you would be surprised how little some of them know (about anything!)

Jeremy

#573 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 18:53

Originally posted by jayban
- you would be surprised how little some of them know (about anything!) Jeremy


Actually - I don't think I would!

#574 alansart

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 19:08

Originally posted by jayban

I would agree that my background probably does give me some advantage over some of the 'greener' artists that are just starting out (some that I have come across recently are geniuses on a keyboard but can't draw for toffee!) - you would be surprised how little some of them know (about anything!)


My daughters are both at Uni studying Architecture. I was pleased that spent at least the first year of their courses away from the computer and have had to physically draw their work. Teaching or improving drawing skills was seen as a priority :)

Like Tony I'm not surprised how little some people know. I was trying to explain how to work out which degree ellipses to use to a "so called" artist a few years back. He had no idea ellipses had degrees :confused:

#575 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 19:09

Originally posted by jayban
I would agree that my background probably does give me some advantage over some of the 'greener' artists that are just starting out (some that I have come across recently are geniuses on a keyboard but can't draw for toffee!) - you would be surprised how little some of them know (about anything!)

Jeremy


I can see where you are coming from Jeremy. About 12 years ago I popped back for a few weeks to help out on an illustrating project in Germany. A couple of young lads from the Blackpool college illustrating course ( pretty quick on the keys, but hopeless with a pencil ), were sent into the Opel works ( by our German boss ) to get the info we needed to illustrate the brake system on a particular new model. They brought back hardly anything useful! Opel would not allow photography in the factory and the task involved walking along the moving production line with sketchpad, pencil and a tape measure..and that was it. Also trying to stay out of the way of the line workers who were trying to put wheels on! It meant a return appointment and journey by shall we say 'an old school illustrator'! Not their fault I suppose if the courses do not include the basics these days. Freehand drawing was a pretty important part of the course that I did 30 years ago.

#576 alansart

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 19:21

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Opel would not allow photography in the factory and the task involved walking along the moving production line with sketchpad, pencil and a tape measure..and that was it. Also trying to stay out of the way of the line workers who were trying to put wheels on! It meant a return appointment and journey by shall we say 'an old school illustrator'! Not their fault I suppose if the courses do not include the basics these days. Freehand drawing was a pretty important part of the course that I did 30 years ago.


Andrew, did you ever go into the R&D department at VW to sketch bits of development cars. There were a couple of engineers who used to take the p*ss out of us English, whose German was limited, and they had a laugh at our expense. It didn't bother me that much as it was all fairly light hearted but a had to raise a smile when they tried it on with someone who fully understood what they were saying and he only told them so as we were leaving. Their faces were a picture :blush: :eek:

Happy days.

Like Jeremy I often still draw roughs in pencil then scan it to use as a template :)

#577 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 19:26

Yes, went in there often Alan. I couldn't believe how big the Wolfsburg plant was when I first went there, 68,000 workers at the time, must have been about the same when you first went to Eckards. I liked the benchmarking department in the FE. That huge hall full of 4 poster lifts with every type of opposition manufacturers vehicle you could think of being pulled apart! Even saw a Roller in there one day.

#578 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 23:13

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For no reason at all, other than that it was a very attractive Nigel Bennet design, another yellow Penske...

#579 Stephen Miller

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 02:23

Tony

Interesting story to go with the '88 Penske PC17. I lived in the UK at the time. It was not uncommon knowledge in the car modeling world that AMT was planning to produce a plastic model kit of the PC17 with engine detail. So I thought what the heck, I'll ask the Penske works in the UK if they had any information they would be willing to share to help a detail modeler? I was quite prepared for the worst they could say, which would have been no! The response was a copy of your excellent cutaway and an interesting query wanting to know who was launching a model kit of their car? I remember thinking, wouldn't the factory known something like that? After all, since they did design and build the cars, it would seem reasonable that a sanctioned model kit would have some access to the cars or some of its plans!

Someday I will have to complete that project.

Stephen

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#580 Jones Foyer

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 03:15

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Computer animation has killed the wonderful cut-away line illustration that the likes of Tony, Alan and me were trained to do and try and make a living from. Take a look at this, very impressive...but I would still prefer producing artwork by hand, not a computer keyboard.
http://link.brightco...tid=10497901001


I guess I have toyed with murder then.

I don't do this on a regular basis (full mechanical detailing under the body), normally I just do body surfacing. But it is VERY enjoyable, an a lot less automated than one would expect, there is a large amount of artistic decision making involved. I come from a drawing background and never expected to become a digital modeler, but after the tools become as natural to use as analog devices, it is quite pleasurable. I think of it as building a model kit on the tube.

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#581 IrishMariner

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 06:41

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
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For no reason at all, other than that it was a very attractive Nigel Bennet design, another yellow Penske...


Wow, that's one I've not seen before. Brilliant as always.

It reminded me straightaway of one of my favourite Autosport covers. Back in the day when a single picture sufficed on the cover, the 88 Penske sat in a sunny Indianapolis pit lane - looking fantastic in it's yellow bodywork and chrome suspension.

#582 Duc-Man

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 09:29

...the 88 Penske sat in a sunny Indianapolis pit lane - looking fantastic in it's yellow bodywork and chrome suspension.



I allways liked the blue Sunoco Penskes more. They look more precious...

#583 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 09:47

One thing you can say is, RP always did, I'm sure still does, run immaculate cars. The wishbones were polished, not plated, IM, I thought they were chromed but was quickly put right by the staff at Penske Cars, plating was not allowed. Not for RP the natural-finish wheels, either, always polished. I thought the blue was terrific too, but the thing I like most is change, and although I thought the cars looked great in yellow, I found it very difficult to paint, so the change to Marlboro was welcome in a way. Not that I didn't do any more Pennzoil cars...

And of course, on a couple of occasions two or three Penskes ran with different schemes.

#584 fines

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 09:49

Originally posted by alansart
Like Tony I'm not surprised how little some people know. I was trying to explain how to work out which degree ellipses to use to a "so called" artist a few years back. He had no idea ellipses had degrees :confused:

An "artist" wouldn't need to know that, only a "technical illustrator".;)

Yes, I like splitting hairs, how'd you know?

#585 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 09:58

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Same car, 90% the same artwork, miraculously, a different sponsor!

#586 alansart

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 10:54

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
That huge hall full of 4 poster lifts with every type of opposition manufacturers vehicle you could think of being pulled apart! Even saw a Roller in there one day.


They liked it so much, they brought the company :)

On my first visit there was a Jag and of all things a Cadillac!

#587 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 11:20

Originally posted by fines
An "artist" wouldn't need to know that, only a "technical illustrator".


You are right Michael, personally I have, I think, avoided the term 'artist' throughout - James Allington refered to himself as a Technical Artist, I always, at least since a couple of years into my apprenticeship, used the term Illustrator. As far as I am concerned a lot of 'artists' are illustrators, some illustrators are artists and there is a grey area where I find it difficult to place people's work.

The Pop artist Richard Hamilton did a pencil construction of, I think, a motorcycle tyre, and a print of it hung in the corridor of the Art Department at Luton Tech., an illustration if ever I saw one, but as it was the product of an 'artist', so it became 'art'.

Damn, no chance of sneaking in a °!

#588 alansart

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 11:32

Originally posted by Tony Matthews

As far as I am concerned a lot of 'artists' are illustrators, some illusrtrators are artists and there is a grey area where I find it difficult to place people's work.


Agreed. I classify myself as a Technical Illustrator who occasionally tries a bit of art.

#589 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 11:48

Originally posted by Jones Foyer
I guess I have toyed with murder then.


JF, the renderings are wonderful, I've seen your work previously, and the first time it took a few seconds to realize what they were - I think it was the pure perfection that rang a bell! However, I wonder if you feel that your background helps, possibly gives you an edge over those who have gone straight to software. As I have said before, Tom Johnson has mentioned in the past that computer renderings that he saw produced by engineers could be vastly improved with some 'artistic' input. He, like you, seems to have cracked it...not to mention jayban, Alan and others who toil at a keyboard and tablet.

#590 fines

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 12:11

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


You are right Michael, personally I have, I think, avoided the term 'artist' throughout - James Allington refered to himself as a Technical Artist, I always, at least since a couple of years into my apprenticeship, used the term Illustrator. As far as I am concerned a lot of 'artists' are illustrators, some illustrators are artists and there is a grey area where I find it difficult to place people's work.

The Pop artist Richard Hamilton did a pencil construction of, I think, a motorcycle tyre, and a print of it hung in the corridor of the Art Department at Luton Tech., an illustration if ever I saw one, but as it was the product of an 'artist', so it became 'art'.

Hopefully nobody construes this as a sort of criticism (why do I think of Joseph Cotton now?), I am a full-blooded admirer of all the work presented in this thread!! But there are two meanings to the word "art", which is not always appreciated: 1) has to do with skills, and for that all of you qualify, and 2) has to do with the object that's created, and technical illustrations simply don't qualify as art in that sense.

#591 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 12:18

Originally posted by fines
and technical illustrations simply don't qualify as art in that sense.


I quite agree, Michael.

Edited to say that when I said 'some illustrators are artists' I did not mean technical illustrators, but general illustrators, not sure if that is the correct term, but the sort of people who's work filled the Illustrator's Yearbook that I once subscribed to. Prescious little technical work appeared in there! However I still maintain that there is a grey area, and my opinions about some 'artists' and some works of 'art' do not belong here.

#592 fines

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 12:32

Yes, definitely a lot of "grey area"! That's what makes it (art) fun, for me at least.;)

#593 alansart

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 12:49

Originally posted by fines
Yes, definitely a lot of "grey area"! That's what makes it (art) fun, for me at least.;)


Very true!

Unfortunately my grey area covers my head, but that's just an age thing :)

#594 Jones Foyer

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 17:29

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


JF, the renderings are wonderful, I've seen your work previously, and the first time it took a few seconds to realize what they were - I think it was the pure perfection that rang a bell! However, I wonder if you feel that your background helps, possibly gives you an edge over those who have gone straight to software. As I have said before, Tom Johnson has mentioned in the past that computer renderings that he saw produced by engineers could be vastly improved with some 'artistic' input. He, like you, seems to have cracked it...not to mention jayban, Alan and others who toil at a keyboard and tablet.


Thanks, Tony, from you it means a lot.

#595 fines

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 19:08

Originally posted by alansart


Very true!

Unfortunately my grey area covers my head, but that's just an age thing :)

I wish I had some grey area left to cover my head... :(

#596 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 21:14

I've got some white if you want to borrow it, Micheal. Only borrow, mind...

#597 fines

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 22:01

Well, I can lend you a % in exchange!;)

Damned, he already noticed! :


Edited to make sense... :blush:

#598 Tony Matthews

Tony Matthews
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Posted 18 February 2009 - 22:52

Originally posted by fines
Well, I can borrow you a % in exchange!;)

Damned, he already noticed! :


Ha! So you noticed too!

#599 fines

fines
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Posted 18 February 2009 - 23:03

Course!;) :smoking:

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#600 racer2racer

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 23:05

Many years ago I had the pleasure to visit Tony in England after being a fan of him for many years. It all began with a letter to Motoring News asking about those great cutaways being published in this tabloid type of magazine. After a while I got a real nice letter from Tony along with some Cibachrome prints of his paintings. After that we began corresponding much because my interest in Indycars. My favourite among those are his rendering of the blue Foster March Porsche which by the way never made it to the brickyard. Anyway, these two prints were sent to Penske hoping that my 10 dollars in return postage would get them signed..........and much to my surprise they did!! So Tony, thanks once again for all those wonderful prints.

Johnny in Sweden

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