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The cutaway drawing and its artists


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#6051 Tony Matthews

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 07:38

Yeah, and I got crap for loading my "small" files on here ...

Never crap, Tom, just a bit of gentle ribbing.

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#6052 Tony Matthews

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 07:44

Gentlemen, advice please.

For my own collection, I am in the process of completely removing the black background - which to my mind makes this splendid cutaway even more striking. Is it legitimate to post the result on the forum, or should the background be regarded as a fundamental part of David Kimble's interpretation and therefore not to be changed? Malcolm

I'm not quite sure why you would want to do it, Malcolm, it is so much part of the overall illustration. However, that is not the issue - go ahead with the challenging task, but without Dave Kimble's permission I don't think you should post it. I know I would be seriously upset if someone posted a heavily-altered illustration of mine - but having others clean and stitch some of my cutaways and re-post them is fine, in fact, a pleasure!

#6053 marlondylan

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:11

Are you sure Boudewijn ?


You are right, it was G.Betti.
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Edited by marlondylan, 11 September 2010 - 08:11.


#6054 MEI

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:52

I'm not quite sure why you would want to do it, Malcolm, it is so much part of the overall illustration. However, that is not the issue - go ahead with the challenging task, but without Dave Kimble's permission I don't think you should post it. I know I would be seriously upset if someone posted a heavily-altered illustration of mine - but having others clean and stitch some of my cutaways and re-post them is fine, in fact, a pleasure!

Thanks for the advice Tony. Personally I find the cars have more impact on a plain, light background - eg your own D-type (page 30) - although I take your comment about the Francois E-type above it. I have finished the Cobra - Photoshop is a wonderful (though time-consuming) tool.

Still on the subject of David Kimble, I have seen several references to a 2011 Calendar of his drawings, but none of the normal internet sellers appear to have it in stock. Has anyone actually seen a copy yet? Malcolm

#6055 Duc-Man

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 13:10

According to amazon (Germany) it was released on august 15th. Maybe it's already sold out.
BTW they don't have it in stock overhere either.

Edited to say that it does not appear anywhere on the Motorbooks International website...????

Edited by Duc-Man, 11 September 2010 - 13:20.


#6056 sixlover

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 15:09

Just back from my son's house,where I noticed his Allington print of a GT40 cutaway wasn't where he normally hung it. He said that as he had no real connection with the car and they were doing the stairs decorating he might as well sell it. He prefers his signed Craig Warwick montage of Maserati subjects as he always worked with Masers, but never had anything to do with a GT40. The Allington is signed with "With best wishes, James A. Allington" and given to him by Allington in person, since he was working on Allington's nostril nose 156 replica when it all went a bit t***up.
He left the firm and now doesn't see the point in keeping the print.
Any idea if there are some good sites (apart from the obvious) where he might get a realistic price for it?

Martin

#6057 Tony Matthews

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 16:47

... he was working on Allington's nostril nose 156 replica when it all went a bit t***up.
Martin

Your son must have been working not far from me then, Martin, as I live only a couple of miles ffom where Jim lived - unless some of the work was outsourced some distance. I know at least one local firm was involved in the project.

#6058 sixlover

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 09:11

Tony,
my son worked on it in Norfolk, where it had all been sent to be done properly. Previous attempts at the work were dire. Mis-bored Triple choke Webers, body shape wrong, you name it. The work really was bad. The entire project was passed up here and went into a sort of semi-storage. Sometimes they were told to work on it, sometimes everything had to stop.
Ultimately, the family told them to do no more as they were trying to sell it. I thought for not that much money considering no other replica had anywhere near so many genuine parts, but apparently nobody else thought so and last I heard it was still there, though that is a while ago now and I see that Jim Stokes has built a rather nice replica down in Waterlooville. They had a wooden buck built by a German company called Spyder which was appallingly wrong in shape, although beautifully made. I told them to keep to Etienne Becker's drawing for Model Cars magazine and they wouldn't go far wrong and they agreed, later doing the replica which appeared in their ads.
What has become of the Allington car, I know not.
I do have some nice pictures somewhere of all the genuine bits up on storage racks! Must be the modelmaker in me.

Cheers,
Martin

Your son must have been working not far from me then, Martin, as I live only a couple of miles ffom where Jim lived - unless some of the work was outsourced some distance. I know at least one local firm was involved in the project.



#6059 MEI

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 15:05

I'm not quite sure why you would want to do it, Malcolm, it is so much part of the overall illustration. However, that is not the issue - go ahead with the challenging task, but without Dave Kimble's permission I don't think you should post it. I know I would be seriously upset if someone posted a heavily-altered illustration of mine - but having others clean and stitch some of my cutaways and re-post them is fine, in fact, a pleasure!

Tony, by way of salutation here is a photo of my framed print of your D-type. I recall that it took KK Jigsaws three attempts (because the tubes were a bit flimsy) to get me a copy that was not dented.
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I also have a high resolution scan of the 3-pager from 100 Great Cars, but given your comment on page 149 (post 5939) I'm not sure whether you would want me to post it. Malcolm

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#6060 Tony Matthews

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:19

Tony, by way of salutation here is a photo of my framed print of your D-type. I recall that it took KK Jigsaws three attempts (because the tubes were a bit flimsy) to get me a copy that was not dented.
Posted Image

Nicely framed, Malcolm! The D-type prints were on heavy-weight paper, difficult to roll without creasing, and sourcing good quality cardboard tubes at a reasonable cost is tough. I marketed the same print a few years later, and mailed the very few orders I received in lengths of B&Q black plastic rainwater down-pipe - cheaper and much stronger than cardboard!

I also have a high resolution scan of the 3-pager from 100 Great Cars, but given your comment on page 149 (post 5939) I'm not sure whether you would want me to post it.


Thanks for your concern, but I think I have already posted it - I know I have posted the version on a white background. I think your framed version is good enough.

I will not be posting anymore medium- to high-res images of work that is my copyright, as the ignorant and sarcastic response that I had from someone called Rens Biesma has made me realise that I have been too liberal with my stuff. I have really enjoyed this thread, and fully understand people copying illustrations for their own pleasure - in fact, it's flattering, but why anyone would want to then post them on their own Facebook/web site is beyond me. I can only assume they get some satisfaction from the reflected glory. When you consider that Rens Biesma has contributed nothing to the thread, just lifted artwork without the courtesy of a request, it smacks of either a personality defect or a poor upbringing... That may sound bitter on my part, but it ain't, I am just being realistic. There's always someone who wants to spoil the party, or reveal the identity of The Stig. They, ultimately, are the losers.

#6061 Tom Johnson

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:29

Nicely framed, Malcolm! The D-type prints were on heavy-weight paper, difficult to roll without creasing, and sourcing good quality cardboard tubes at a reasonable cost is tough. I marketed the same print a few years later, and mailed the very few orders I received in lengths of B&Q black plastic rainwater down-pipe - cheaper and much stronger than cardboard!



Thanks for your concern, but I think I have already posted it - I know I have posted the version on a white background. I think your framed version is good enough.

I will not be posting anymore medium- to high-res images of work that is my copyright, as the ignorant and sarcastic response that I had from someone called Rens Biesma has made me realise that I have been too liberal with my stuff. I have really enjoyed this thread, and fully understand people copying illustrations for their own pleasure - in fact, it's flattering, but why anyone would want to then post them on their own Facebook/web site is beyond me. I can only assume they get some satisfaction from the reflected glory. When you consider that Rens Biesma has contributed nothing to the thread, just lifted artwork without the courtesy of a request, it smacks of either a personality defect or a poor upbringing... That may sound bitter on my part, but it ain't, I am just being realistic. There's always someone who wants to spoil the party, or reveal the identity of The Stig. They, ultimately, are the losers.


I agree with you Tony! I once had a chap at an airshow want me to take the framed print of my Pitts Model 12 out if the booth into the sunlight so he could get a good photo of it. Sure, I thought....sounded harmless and as you mentioned, a bit flattering. Then he said that he wanted a good photo of it so that he could make quality copies of it to sell to his mates! At this point I introduced myself as the artist and figured he would back off, but he didn't. Instead, he was outraged that I wouldn't cooperate.


#6062 Tony Matthews

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:58

It fascinates me, Tom, that people who are intent on that kind of 'theft' are so often the most indignant, outraged and aggressive when foiled or confronted! It's like road-rage, the lawbreakers, the dangerous drivers are also, in my experience, the nastiest people in other aspects of life. A philosophical moment in Cutawayland!

Edited by Tony Matthews, 12 September 2010 - 16:58.


#6063 macoran

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 18:28

Thanks for your concern, but I think I have already posted it - I know I have posted the version on a white background. I think your framed version is good enough.

I will not be posting anymore medium- to high-res images of work that is my copyright, as the ignorant and sarcastic response that I had from someone called Rens Biesma has made me realise that I have been too liberal with my stuff. I have really enjoyed this thread, and fully understand people copying illustrations for their own pleasure - in fact, it's flattering, but why anyone would want to then post them on their own Facebook/web site is beyond me. I can only assume they get some satisfaction from the reflected glory. When you consider that Rens Biesma has contributed nothing to the thread, just lifted artwork without the courtesy of a request, it smacks of either a personality defect or a poor upbringing... That may sound bitter on my part, but it ain't, I am just being realistic. There's always someone who wants to spoil the party, or reveal the identity of The Stig. They, ultimately, are the losers.

Tony, I can absolutely understand your point.
I must have missed the Rens Biesma "ignorant and sarcastic response".. so I'll have to pedal back through the thread.

What I did notice recently is that:

He has a site on the net ( I am not going to get him any custom by mentioning the www. ............. here) which you have to subscribe to
@ euro 12.50 per year. Oh BTW I am not stupid enough to subscribe.....the service is offered by the magazine I speak of below.
The magazine is published by Sanoma .
This site is an F1 info site where he blatantly traces photos of cars and gives short write-ups on the car's history.
His articles are published in a Dutch language autosport magazine, published by above publisher.
Each article states : illustrations by Rens Biesma !!
What really got me going was a recent story on the resurrection of Lotus.
There is a reversed tracing of the Bill Bennett Lotus 72 cutaway !!! accredited to the same Rens Biesma

edit to say.......very funny business by Biesma, because he is a good cutaway artist in his own right, but one I no longer hold in any esteem.

Edited by macoran, 12 September 2010 - 18:48.


#6064 TWest

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 19:06

Guys,
I have been coasting a bit, although busy, so not drifting ... if the difference is significant. Just pulled a couple of things that I had in my files so I hope there is something amusing here. I am starting with a couple of pieces from Schlenzig ... I am presuming that he is German..
This is a Front-Wheel-Drive DFW out of Sports Car Illustrated from January, 1957.
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#6065 TWest

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 19:14

Here is another DFW from Schlenzig. If anyone has any information on who he is, I would appreciate it just for background.
I found this in Sports Car Illustrated from November, 1956.
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#6066 TWest

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 19:17

This is an illustration by Robert Thatcher out of Road and Track from June, 1961. A relatively simple drawing of the Ferrari 246 Dino.
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#6067 TWest

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 19:19

We have another Robert Thatcher illustration here out of Road and Track from June, 1961. The classic Vanwal Formula One.
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#6068 macoran

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 19:21

Here is another DFW from Schlenzig. If anyone has any information on who he is, I would appreciate it just for background.

Along with Sigfried Werner, best known for cutaways and technical illustrations for German automotive publications in the 50s.


#6069 TWest

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 19:21

This piece appeared in Car & Driver July, 1971, but there was no identification for the illustrator. Any suggestions here? Ferrari 246 Sport.
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#6070 macoran

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 19:23

We have another Robert Thatcher illustration here out of Road and Track from June, 1961. The classic Vanwal Formula One.
Tom West

 ;) Now the BRM please !

#6071 TWest

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 19:24

OK, last one for today ... just wanted to make up a little lost ground to compensate for all of the great stuff that has been posted in the last while.
This is a Lawrie Watts illustration of the Panther Six. Not sure where I found it, but it was out of February, 1978.
I would think this was a pretty small printing in the magazine, as it sort of falls apart, but I tried to hold as much here as I could.
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#6072 Tony Matthews

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 19:51

This is an illustration by Robert Thatcher out of Road and Track from June, 1961. A relatively simple drawing of the Ferrari 246 Dino.
Tom West

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We have another Robert Thatcher illustration here out of Road and Track from June, 1961. The classic Vanwal Formula One.
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Thanks Tom. 'Simple' is probably the right word, but you could also say 'economical', and there is a time and place for simple, just as there is for complicated!

#6073 Tony Matthews

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 19:57

Tony, I can absolutely understand your point.
I must have missed the Rens Biesma "ignorant and sarcastic response".. so I'll have to pedal back through the thread.

It wasn't on this thread, Marc, it was a reply from his Facebook address. I asked him to remove certain illustrations, including a photograph of me, but he was not 'helpfull'. Essentially he said that it was in the public domain - which is true, but still my copyright - and I should stop being 'silly' and 'get on with my drawings'. So he can steal them, I suppose.

No worries, he can plough his own selfish furrow, it's not as if I'm in the business anymore! Let's get on with the show!

#6074 TWest

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 00:22

;) Now the BRM please !


Marc,
I have the BRM illustration, so will send it out later this evening. Have another of the Thatcher pieces that I will include, as well.
Thanks for asking.
Tom West

#6075 TWest

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 00:26

Thanks Tom. 'Simple' is probably the right word, but you could also say 'economical', and there is a time and place for simple, just as there is for complicated!



Tony,
Considering that most of this type of artwork done for the US magazines was paid pretty badly over the years, they sort of got much more than what was paid for in the first place. I have certainly been a victim of that, but I was on top of the world just taking over the Car Craft series, or doing a fairly regular series for Drag Racing USA. More money would have just confused the issue ... :)
Remember that much of this wasn't done for sponsors, so there wasn't that marketing money behind it either. In drag racing especially, I am not sure why anyone did that stuff, even photography, as that was pretty low-buck, too. And, I was doing that, too.
Non-commercial motivations, I have to tell you.
Tom West

#6076 TWest

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:36

OK, Marc, Here you go.
This is the Bob Thatcher illustration of the BRM Formula 1 out of Road & Track Magazine in June, 1961.
As we discussed, a much simpler style than those classic Allington, and later our own Mr. Matthews work. They didn't exactly have departments working in any of the US publishing groups specializing in this kind of thing, ala Iliffe.
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#6077 TWest

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:41

Marc,
Here is the other Thatcher illustration that I told you I would include. This is the Ferrari 555 SuperSqualo from Road & Track in June, 1961.
No more for this evening, but thanks for playing along.
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#6078 TWest

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:34

OK, I gave in and pulled up another one of those old shots. No idea who did this Peugeot 404, but it ran in Sports Car Illustrated, September, 1960.
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#6079 fnqvmuch

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 06:37

OK, I gave in and pulled up another one of those old shots. No idea who did this Peugeot 404, but it ran in Sports Car Illustrated, September, 1960.
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1,403 images in the Peugeot file and i didn't have that one - thanks for posting; it's quite good.
One early '70s - 204 - brochure has something that looks pretty similar, but my copy is not legible enough to be sure of the hand ...
thanks again, everyone
steven

Edited by fnqvmuch, 13 September 2010 - 06:38.


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#6080 TWest

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 06:52

1,403 images in the Peugeot file and i didn't have that one - thanks for posting; it's quite good.
One early '70s - 204 - brochure has something that looks pretty similar, but my copy is not legible enough to be sure of the hand ...
thanks again, everyone
steven


Wow, very impressed with that 1403 number. I presume that those aren't all cutaways ...
I pulled up quite a few things from that Russian site. I especially liked the brochure illustrations, as they seemed to be, as I haven't been able to pick up a lot of those.
Since I try to file everything by author name, I can't tell how many of any particular car type I have until I get them all listed in my full list, which is something around 3900 automotive cutaways that I have referenced, not counting a ton of new ones from this Board and other such Internet resources.
Thanks for everyone's participation.
Tom West

#6081 fnqvmuch

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 08:23

sending PM, but; apart from what has come from here - this is about it for peugeot as cutaway, , and i dont know anything about it, i'm afraid - so feel free to chip in, fellows ...
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#6082 MEI

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:16

Nicely framed, Malcolm! The D-type prints were on heavy-weight paper, difficult to roll without creasing, and sourcing good quality cardboard tubes at a reasonable cost is tough. I marketed the same print a few years later, and mailed the very few orders I received in lengths of B&Q black plastic rainwater down-pipe - cheaper and much stronger than cardboard!

Good thinking, Batman!

#6083 scorerr770

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:22

Good to see Schoellershammer is still around. We used that in Wolfsburg and it was available in huge sheets. I didn't think it was as good as CS10 but still pretty good. I'm not sure what line board would be used for these days, but I can see a use for something similar to CS2 as there are a lot of budding artists using watercolour etc.

I've not really used watercolour boards that much on the few things I've done over the last few years as I've found heavyweight watercolour paper easier to get hold of.

I'd imagine 20 year old sheet of CS10 is a bit faded by now!


here at work we have 20 x pads of A2 CS10 paper collecting dust, too much materiel going to waste these days..

#6084 TWest

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 15:56

here at work we have 20 x pads of A2 CS10 paper collecting dust, too much materiel going to waste these days..


Maybe we should start a non-profit organization to distribute aging art board and supplies to aging cutaway artists ...
I could use a roll of 5 mil Mylar at the moment ...
:)

Tom West

#6085 DHFiallo

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 16:21

I had to take a look at that "Rens" guy. Should be pronounced as "runs" as in I had some bad chili and I have the runs now! I saw one car and instantly recognized it as a Makato Ouchi and he's putting his own name on it. Wow, I cannot fathom that.

#6086 marlondylan

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 16:26

California LWB Spider cutaway.
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#6087 Tony Matthews

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 16:34

I had to take a look at that "Rens" guy. Should be pronounced as "runs" as in I had some bad chili and I have the runs now!

If I meet him it will be best for him if he runs... That's a joke, in case anyone feels a rumble coming on - I don't like the idea of prison regime, I don't suppose he likes hospital food.

#6088 macoran

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 18:40

I had to take a look at that "Rens" guy. Should be pronounced as "runs" as in I had some bad chili and I have the runs now! I saw one car and instantly recognized it as a Makato Ouchi and he's putting his own name on it. Wow, I cannot fathom that.

I'll tell you more...Rens actually means runs in Dutch !
as for Biesma, add a few letters and you have "pack your stuff and git!! "

#6089 macoran

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 19:50

Right, where was I ?

Ah, Herbert Mudsam's Volvo P1800ES looking a little less sleek than Simon Templar's ride
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#6090 scorerr770

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 20:25

latest work, maybe not F1 Grand Prix but if you managed to stay up late the last few Mondays BBC1 Gears and Tears, this was one of the major stars cars.

also a JADE Open Sports Car Series raced by Steve Griffiths


http://www.hubgarage...hs-Jade-web.jpg

and

http://www.hubgarage...ile-car-web.jpg

all comments and critque welcome..

#6091 DHFiallo

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 21:44

I'll tell you more...Rens actually means runs in Dutch !
as for Biesma, add a few letters and you have "pack your stuff and git!! "


That is too funny. I have zero knowledge of the Dutch language and it was just a lucky reference; again I am reminded what a great place to visit that Cutawayland is. There's knowledge, beauty, humor and I hear the ladies are....

#6092 macoran

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 21:49

I hear the ladies are....

Some aren't I can tell you !
I think the term fish-wife originated in a little Dutch fishing village !

Edited by macoran, 13 September 2010 - 21:49.


#6093 Tony Matthews

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 22:04

All the ladies in Cutawayland are lovely - the term 'beautiful' is over-used and shallow - are good fun, like a drink but don't overdo it, are self-assured and even-tempered, are fit but don't go to the gym, are loving and faithful, like all your friends and are liked and admired in return, and, most important for illustrators, they know which end of a pencil to suck.

#6094 macoran

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 22:48

they know which end of a pencil to suck.

is that why one end of a pencil has an "eraser" on it ?

#6095 TWest

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 22:57

All the ladies in Cutawayland are lovely - the term 'beautiful' is over-used and shallow - are good fun, like a drink but don't overdo it, are self-assured and even-tempered, are fit but don't go to the gym, are loving and faithful, like all your friends and are liked and admired in return, and, most important for illustrators, they know which end of a pencil to suck.



Wow, you really make Cutawayland sound like a vacation paradise. I am just up the road from Disneyland (the original), so maybe they can make the next 'land into this wond'rous place that you describe. Does sound a bit like the Stepford Wife influence is at work here ... not that there is anything wrong with that.
Tom West

#6096 Tony Matthews

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 06:33

Wow, you really make Cutawayland sound like a vacation paradise. I am just up the road from Disneyland (the original), so maybe they can make the next 'land into this wond'rous place that you describe. Does sound a bit like the Stepford Wife influence is at work here ... not that there is anything wrong with that.
Tom West

Well, I don't want any sort of Stepford associations here, really, so I will add what I missed out - independent, self-sufficent and feisty, especially the red-heads - they just happen to like illustrators and those with an interest in the subject. They also know the difference between an eraser and a rubber, Marc!

#6097 TWest

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 16:07

Well, I don't want any sort of Stepford associations here, really, so I will add what I missed out - independent, self-sufficent and feisty, especially the red-heads - they just happen to like illustrators and those with an interest in the subject. They also know the difference between an eraser and a rubber, Marc!


Should have figured that you would get the Stepford reference ... wasn't sure if that movie and the book ever made it across to you guys. Good to see folks with wider interests. Personally, I have been retesting the waters for the last ten years since my divorce, and have probably had more fun than I ever did when I was younger. More involved with the historic race cars (drag racing and Cacklefest cars) than I ever would have thought, always seem to have women who are now finding me intelligent and charming (instead of geeky, before the concept was a concept), and, in general, life isn't so damned bad.
Now, if I could get my back repaired, I would be just spiffy.
Tom West

A bit more demand for cutaways would be nice, too.


#6098 Tony Matthews

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 16:53

...who are now finding me intelligent and charming...

Have they actually met you Tom? :)

Yeah, a lot of stuff has made it over the water - more incoming than outgoing, I fear.

#6099 TWest

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 17:34

Have they actually met you Tom? :)

Yeah, a lot of stuff has made it over the water - more incoming than outgoing, I fear.


This country has always had a thing about exporting culture as our major product ... which is a massive overstatement for the material referenced.
And, yeah, they have, smart-ass. I make a better 60 year old than I did a 20 year old, I am finding. Considering that I still work out, take photos of women, do the drag racing and all of that, I come off younger than I am. Also, never having smoked, I don't sound 60 on the phone, so I can do a good sell prior to actually meeting. A bit of tension going in advance is a wondrous thing, I have found.
Wish I knew at 20 a few of the things I seem to know now ...
Say hello to the child bride for me.
Tom

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#6100 alansart

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 17:43

Wish I knew at 20 a few of the things I seem to know now ...


Don't we all :)