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#6551 werks prototype

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 20:08

Please feel free to ignore this if it is deemed 'waffle'!

Is this a discussion about the differing types of medium being used to colour an under-drawing? Or, instead the varying techniques used to colour the under-drawing?

For example, was Allington producing a kind of flat/uniform stain or wash or a single glaze to colour his work? (a little bit like the post production colouring of the b&w photograph). As opposed to the way Tony has painted, which sometimes appears to me the product of a series of carefully built up transparent layers? With all the depth that, that technique cultivates.

Are, we therefore talking about the differing techniques of colouring the technically 'necessary' under-drawing? We are not for example talking about painting a thing directly here are we? With no underlying drawing.







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#6552 werks prototype

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 20:15

Posted Image
Vauxhall Ten-Four 1938. By Leslie Cresswell.

Edited by werks prototype, 28 April 2012 - 19:39.


#6553 werks prototype

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 20:17

Posted Image
Longitudinal Section of a Speed Boat by G. Havis, 1947

Edited by werks prototype, 28 April 2012 - 19:38.


#6554 TWest

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 20:55

Posted Image
Longitudinal Section of a Speed Boat by G. Havis, 1947

Tough to read, but is that one of the Campbell Bluebirds? If not, what is it?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Tom West

#6555 helioseism

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 21:13

1959 Novi by Thatcher. To be compared with the 1960 version posted on page 148.

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#6556 helioseism

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 21:51

1964 Serenissima 308V Prototipo Sport by Cavara.

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#6557 werks prototype

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 22:11

Tough to read, but is that one of the Campbell Bluebirds? If not, what is it?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Tom West


Bluebird 2 I think Tom.

#6558 werks prototype

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 22:12

1964 Serenissima 308V Prototipo Sport by Cavara.

Posted Image


What a find!

#6559 helioseism

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 22:31

What a find!


It's from "60 Vetture Ai Raggi X" (60 cars in X-rays), all by Cavara. Great book, if you can find one.


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#6560 werks prototype

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 22:37

It's from "60 Vetture Ai Raggi X" (60 cars in X-rays), all by Cavara. Great book, if you can find one.


Marvellous stuff :up:

Edit: If I can afford one! :eek:

Edited by werks prototype, 24 October 2010 - 05:40.


#6561 helioseism

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 22:41

These are from the 1949 Ferrari annual (1969 reprint). Both are by Cavara.

First, the 1947 Ferrari 125 s. According to Ibsenop's index, we had one of these on page 96, but it seems to have vanished. Also, there are at least two versions of it. This one has the halftone screened body:
Posted Image

Ferrari 166 Inter gearbox:
Posted Image

#6562 helioseism

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 22:44

Marvellous stuff :up:

Edit: If I can afford one! :eek:



I'll be slowly posting the interesting ones we have not seen yet. Let me know if you have any requests,

#6563 helioseism

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 23:00

Here's the contents from "60 Vetture Ai raggi X" if people want to make requests.

Posted Image

#6564 macoran

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 23:01

It's from "60 Vetture Ai Raggi X" (60 cars in X-rays), all by Cavara. Great book, if you can find one.

There are three here at 200 Euros each
I stopped advertising when a certain American poster(an expert on Italian cars) said...........
oh why bother expalining, some dodo's don't know what a book is worth

#6565 macoran

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 23:02

Here's the contents from "60 Vetture Ai raggi X" if people want to make requests.

Posted Image

there go my sales, thanks mate !

#6566 TWest

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 02:25

I'll be slowly posting the interesting ones we have not seen yet. Let me know if you have any requests,


I had already started through the book from the front, but am still in the Alfas, if I remember correctly. Will have to pull that sucker out and do a few more.
Tom West

#6567 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 05:21

Posted Image
1968, 3.5-litre Rover V8. (Morgan).

Edited by werks prototype, 15 May 2012 - 19:36.


#6568 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 05:22

Posted Image
Morgan Plus 8. By Vic Berris.

Edited by werks prototype, 15 May 2012 - 19:35.


#6569 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 05:34

Posted Image
The return (to the thread) of the 1949 Cisitalia Type 360. By Harold Bubb.

Edited by werks prototype, 15 May 2012 - 19:36.


#6570 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 05:53

Posted Image
B&W line version of the image first posted on page 81 of the V12 Matra M630 Sports Prototype. By Robert Roux.
(Also appears in a contemporary context in the book mentioned by Ibsen at post #5825 "Sports Racing Cars".)

Edited by werks prototype, 15 May 2012 - 19:40.


#6571 Tony Matthews

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 05:53

werks old chap, can't you sleep, or are you up for the GP?

#6572 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:00

Up for the GP, Tony. And with terrible cold!

#6573 macoran

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:06

or are you up for the GP?

Good Morning gents, I just got up for the GP as well :D

#6574 Tony Matthews

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:58

Please feel free to ignore this if it is deemed 'waffle'!

Is this a discussion about the differing types of medium being used to colour an under-drawing? Or, instead the varying techniques used to colour the under-drawing?

For example, was Allington producing a kind of flat/uniform stain or wash or a single glaze to colour his work? (a little bit like the post production colouring of the b&w photograph). As opposed to the way Tony has painted, which sometimes appears to me the product of a series of carefully built up transparent layers? With all the depth that, that technique cultivates.

Are, we therefore talking about the differing techniques of colouring the technically 'necessary' under-drawing? We are not for example talking about painting a thing directly here are we? With no underlying drawing.

Firstly - Tom W, that red glow you see in the East is me blushing.

wp, different media demand different techniques. As I see it, there are several ways of working in colour, not just a change of media - assuming that a technical illustration starts with a base pencil drawing of varying detail, this can then be treated as a guide to paint over in either transparent or opaque water colours or acrylics, or it can be inked, or traced and inked, as in the next step to preparing a shaded ink line illustration. Some of the colour illustrations I did for Motor Sport were also required by Motoring news in B&W, so I did a fine-line ink drawing without shading, this was photographed and a full-size print made. The line drawing was painted (after the lines had been lightened considerably with a hard erasor), and the mounted print was shaded and finished as normal line artwork.

Using ink on photographic paper is not a problem, but painting on line board, on which the initial drawing had been done, is difficult. I am sure that James Allington used line board, drew the cutaway in ink, and then coloured it with gouache - it may have been watercolour, or a mixture, but the lines were an integral part of the illustration. Now, the lines are also an integral, essential part of the illustration if you use the method that Tom Johnson and David Kimble use, where the line art is transfered to clear film, and airbrushed from the back. This involves the tedium that Tom J has mentioned, of cutting hundreds of masks, part of airbrushing in general, but there is, I think, the bonus of being able to wash off mistakes without damaging the film. The front side can then be worked on with ghosted bodywork, hi-lights, etc.

However, personal taste comes into the equation, and while I greatly admire the work that Tom J and David Kimble produce, it is not a way I ever wanted to work. I didn't want to airbrush cars, I didn't want to work on film, and most of all, I have a preference for 'internal' lines being white, or a light colour, rather than black. It's just the way I see things. I then had to go through a 'Tom West moment', brainstorming is not right, because the final method appeared gradually over four or five years. I abandoned line board in favour of watercolour board, but found drawing on it difficult, and it degraded the surface, especially in areas where a lot of re-working took place. Sometimes I would get a patch that was like painting on corduroy. To overcome this, if I hit a snag and was concerned that it might be a difficult to avoid roughing-up an area, I started using patches of tracing-paper. This was superceeded by drafting film, and then - the Eureka moment if there was one - the descision to use film for the entire working drawing. Lovely stuff to work on with pencil or ink, ideal for pushing the drawing through onto virgin watercolour board with a stylus, strong enough to take punishment, and an 'archive', if ever a second or third illustration was needed.

The outcome was a fresh board with a working drawing in - usually - very pale grey. Exactly what was needed for painting in gouache! No careful build-up of transparent layers for me, squirt the gouache out of the tube onto a china pallet, mix a colour, put it on the board and push it about a bit.

The Betti Bros. seem to work in watercolour, their colour looks transparent and clean, and I guess that they paint straight onto watercolour paper or board. The fewer stages in the preperation, the less time spent - TM's Rule of Thumb.

There are many variations on these basic methods - coloured pencil, coloured line, coloured paper, airbrush on board using gouache, watercolour or inks... Sorry to have rambled on, but I'm still interested in the techniques, even if I don't want to do it anymore.

Edited by Tony Matthews, 24 October 2010 - 11:59.


#6575 ibsenop

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 15:00

Honda NSX by David Kimble

Posted Image

TNF Cutaway Index - updated - page 160 - post 6362 => part A - post 6363 => part B

Edited by ibsenop, 24 October 2010 - 15:06.


#6576 simplebrother

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 19:13

QUOTE (helioseism @ Oct 23 2010, 15:44) *
I'll be slowly posting the interesting ones we have not seen yet. Let me know if you have any requests,

I had already started through the book from the front, but am still in the Alfas, if I remember correctly. Will have to pull that sucker out and do a few more.
Tom West


Wonderful - I only have about a third of them, and many are missing the detail insert. I am especially interested in the OSCAs if being out of order doesn't matter - I have a smaller (1600pixel) version of the 1500 without detail insert, but don't have any of the other three.
thanks - Peter

#6577 simplebrother

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 19:25

Since I am here I will add a couple of Jaguars I don't think we have seen...

Posted Image
Jaguar XJS - 1975 - attributed to Autocar - I'm not sure of the illustrator

Posted Image
Jaguar XK120 - 1948 - J. Crees

I have stitched together all of the illustrations from this source - most have been posted (except Tony's - I didn't want to infringe). I will post the last few over the next week or so, but if you want larger versions or if I have missed any, please PM me and i will email you what you want. Most are in versions about twice the size posted (i.e., 4000 pixel or so).

Peter

#6578 macoran

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 19:42

Since I am here I will add a couple of Jaguars I don't think we have seen...

Posted Image
Jaguar XJS - 1975 - attributed to Autocar - I'm not sure of the illustrator

Vic Berris posted page 115

#6579 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 20:08

Firstly - Tom W, that red glow you see in the East is me blushing.

wp, different media demand different techniques. As I see it, there are several ways of working in colour, not just a change of media - assuming that a technical illustration starts with a base pencil drawing of varying detail, this can then be treated as a guide to paint over in either transparent or opaque water colours or acrylics, or it can be inked, or traced and inked, as in the next step to preparing a shaded ink line illustration. Some of the colour illustrations I did for Motor Sport were also required by Motoring news in B&W, so I did a fine-line ink drawing without shading, this was photographed and a full-size print made. The line drawing was painted (after the lines had been lightened considerably with a hard erasor), and the mounted print was shaded and finished as normal line artwork.

Using ink on photographic paper is not a problem, but painting on line board, on which the initial drawing had been done, is difficult. I am sure that James Allington used line board, drew the cutaway in ink, and then coloured it with gouache - it may have been watercolour, or a mixture, but the lines were an integral part of the illustration. Now, the lines are also an integral, essential part of the illustration if you use the method that Tom Johnson and David Kimble use, where the line art is transfered to clear film, and airbrushed from the back. This involves the tedium that Tom J has mentioned, of cutting hundreds of masks, part of airbrushing in general, but there is, I think, the bonus of being able to wash off mistakes without damaging the film. The front side can then be worked on with ghosted bodywork, hi-lights, etc.

However, personal taste comes into the equation, and while I greatly admire the work that Tom J and David Kimble produce, it is not a way I ever wanted to work. I didn't want to airbrush cars, I didn't want to work on film, and most of all, I have a preference for 'internal' lines being white, or a light colour, rather than black. It's just the way I see things. I then had to go through a 'Tom West moment', brainstorming is not right, because the final method appeared gradually over four or five years. I abandoned line board in favour of watercolour board, but found drawing on it difficult, and it degraded the surface, especially in areas where a lot of re-working took place. Sometimes I would get a patch that was like painting on corduroy. To overcome this, if I hit a snag and was concerned that it might be a difficult to avoid roughing-up an area, I started using patches of tracing-paper. This was superceeded by drafting film, and then - the Eureka moment if there was one - the descision to use film for the entire working drawing. Lovely stuff to work on with pencil or ink, ideal for pushing the drawing through onto virgin watercolour board with a stylus, strong enough to take punishment, and an 'archive', if ever a second or third illustration was needed.

The outcome was a fresh board with a working drawing in - usually - very pale grey. Exactly what was needed for painting in gouache! No careful build-up of transparent layers for me, squirt the gouache out of the tube onto a china pallet, mix a colour, put it on the board and push it about a bit.

The Betti Bros. seem to work in watercolour, their colour looks transparent and clean, and I guess that they paint straight onto watercolour paper or board. The fewer stages in the preperation, the less time spent - TM's Rule of Thumb.

There are many variations on these basic methods - coloured pencil, coloured line, coloured paper, airbrush on board using gouache, watercolour or inks... Sorry to have rambled on, but I'm still interested in the techniques, even if I don't want to do it anymore.


Very interesting reading, as usual!

I like the philosophy behind this.

"No careful build-up of transparent layers for me, squirt the gouache out of the tube onto a china pallet, mix a colour, put it on the board and push it about a bit."

I have to raise a smile though when you mention the stylus and this 'calco' like technique in this way, especially considering that the traditional, and very specific use of such a technique can be traced right back, through almost the entire history of European Fine Art. I understand that here, it is firmly the result of a pragmatic approach to things, but nevertheless it does add even further 'art-historical' resonance to the discussion of your technique .

Edited by werks prototype, 24 October 2010 - 20:09.


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#6580 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 20:14

Honda NSX by David Kimble

Posted Image

TNF Cutaway Index - updated - page 160 - post 6362 => part A - post 6363 => part B


Great effort in keeping track of all the old, new and replacement content submitted here Ibsen. You must have some kind of photographic memory. And the Serenissima posted by helioseism has officially created a new entry, having just pulled up on the cutaway grid.

#6581 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 20:14

Posted Image
1952-53 Type 500 Ferrari? Artist unknown.

Edited by werks prototype, 15 May 2012 - 19:37.


#6582 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 20:15

Posted Image
Brian Hart designed turbocharged 415T. By John Way.

Edited by werks prototype, 15 May 2012 - 19:40.


#6583 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 20:15

Posted Image
Volkswagen Golf. Artist unknown.

Edited by werks prototype, 15 May 2012 - 19:41.


#6584 Tony Matthews

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 20:17

I have to raise a smile though when you mention the stylus and this 'calco' like technique in this way, especially considering that the traditional, and very specific use of such a technique can be traced right back, through almost the entire history of European Fine Art. I understand that here, it is firmly the result of a pragmatic approach to things, but nevertheless it does add even further 'art-historical' resonance to the discussion of your technique .

Blimey!

#6585 macoran

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 20:19

Posted Image
Brian Hart designed turbocharged F1 Cosworth. By John Way.

hmmm

I know I am not posting much, so maybe I should shut my face, but a Hart Cosworth ?

Edited by macoran, 24 October 2010 - 20:21.


#6586 Tim Murray

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 20:49

Agreed, Marc - that's definitely the Hart 415T, which had no connection with Cosworth.

#6587 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 20:49

You are right Marc and 'sharp as a pin', delete the Cosworth. This is what comes from reading Graham Robson's Cosworth book for about three hours today. I have 'Cosworth on the brain'. There was a Hart-Cosworth relationship though, but I don't think it resulted in that!

Edited by werks prototype, 24 October 2010 - 21:01.


#6588 ABG

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 21:14

Ferrari Testa Rossa by James Allington
Posted Image


I have never been one to ignore an excuse to waste time. Played with both Allington 250TR drawings for a while to try to improve the resolution of the engine and transmission in the complete drawing. This is what I ended up with.

http://img156.images...50tredited.jpg/

Would like to know if it is odd that what I assume is the fire bottle is green rather than red.

Al

#6589 Tony Matthews

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 21:39

I have never been one to ignore an excuse to waste time. Played with both Allington 250TR drawings for a while to try to improve the resolution of the engine and transmission in the complete drawing. This is what I ended up with.

http://img156.images...50tredited.jpg/

Would like to know if it is odd that what I assume is the fire bottle is green rather than red.

Al

You've been busy, Al! The engine/transmission looks crisper.

The green fire extinguisher is a now-illegal halon unit.

Edited by Tony Matthews, 24 October 2010 - 21:39.


#6590 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 22:13

Blimey!


Believe it or not, I don't actually mean to do a bad impression of Brian Sewell. I surprise myself. I can see the funny side though.

It's the enthusiasm, it gets the better of me!

For those not familiar with the 'horror' of Brian Sewell's take on things.

Edited by werks prototype, 25 October 2010 - 12:44.


#6591 werks prototype

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 22:16

Posted Image
1986 Ford Sierra RS Cosworth, Cosworth YBB engine. Ford's official cutaway. (Not sure if that means Collins).

#6592 macoran

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 22:24

I have never been one to ignore an excuse to waste time. Played with both Allington 250TR drawings for a while to try to improve the resolution of the engine and transmission in the complete drawing. This is what I ended up with.

Al

damn !! that's good I am ashamed i didn't try it

#6593 simplebrother

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 22:31

Vic Berris posted page 115


missed it - sorry for the duplication (it has shifted to page 114)

#6594 simplebrother

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 22:41

Posted Image
1952-53 Type 500 Ferrari? Artist unknown.


Can anyone read the valve cover? I agree that the car certainly looks like a type 500, but the valve cover has me puzzled. It has horizontal bars on each side of the name (though the number seems to be optional - Cavara uses three on his version, Betti uses five, and this one appears to have four) but the writing sure doesn't look like the familiar Ferrari with the elongated F.
Peter

#6595 TWest

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 22:56

I have never been one to ignore an excuse to waste time. Played with both Allington 250TR drawings for a while to try to improve the resolution of the engine and transmission in the complete drawing. This is what I ended up with.

http://img156.images...50tredited.jpg/

Would like to know if it is odd that what I assume is the fire bottle is green rather than red.

Al


ABG,
Having been a fan of Allington's line work, this brings his color work up to a new level. Thanks for putting the effort into the upgrade. Much appreciated from this corner.
Tom West

#6596 TWest

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 23:03

Firstly - Tom W, that red glow you see in the East is me blushing.

wp, different media demand different techniques. As I see it, there are several ways of working in colour, not just a change of media - assuming that a technical illustration starts with a base pencil drawing of varying detail, this can then be treated as a guide to paint over in either transparent or opaque water colours or acrylics, or it can be inked, or traced and inked, as in the next step to preparing a shaded ink line illustration. Some of the colour illustrations I did for Motor Sport were also required by Motoring news in B&W, so I did a fine-line ink drawing without shading, this was photographed and a full-size print made. The line drawing was painted (after the lines had been lightened considerably with a hard erasor), and the mounted print was shaded and finished as normal line artwork.

Using ink on photographic paper is not a problem, but painting on line board, on which the initial drawing had been done, is difficult. I am sure that James Allington used line board, drew the cutaway in ink, and then coloured it with gouache - it may have been watercolour, or a mixture, but the lines were an integral part of the illustration. Now, the lines are also an integral, essential part of the illustration if you use the method that Tom Johnson and David Kimble use, where the line art is transfered to clear film, and airbrushed from the back. This involves the tedium that Tom J has mentioned, of cutting hundreds of masks, part of airbrushing in general, but there is, I think, the bonus of being able to wash off mistakes without damaging the film. The front side can then be worked on with ghosted bodywork, hi-lights, etc.

However, personal taste comes into the equation, and while I greatly admire the work that Tom J and David Kimble produce, it is not a way I ever wanted to work. I didn't want to airbrush cars, I didn't want to work on film, and most of all, I have a preference for 'internal' lines being white, or a light colour, rather than black. It's just the way I see things. I then had to go through a 'Tom West moment', brainstorming is not right, because the final method appeared gradually over four or five years. I abandoned line board in favour of watercolour board, but found drawing on it difficult, and it degraded the surface, especially in areas where a lot of re-working took place. Sometimes I would get a patch that was like painting on corduroy. To overcome this, if I hit a snag and was concerned that it might be a difficult to avoid roughing-up an area, I started using patches of tracing-paper. This was superceeded by drafting film, and then - the Eureka moment if there was one - the descision to use film for the entire working drawing. Lovely stuff to work on with pencil or ink, ideal for pushing the drawing through onto virgin watercolour board with a stylus, strong enough to take punishment, and an 'archive', if ever a second or third illustration was needed.

The outcome was a fresh board with a working drawing in - usually - very pale grey. Exactly what was needed for painting in gouache! No careful build-up of transparent layers for me, squirt the gouache out of the tube onto a china pallet, mix a colour, put it on the board and push it about a bit.

The Betti Bros. seem to work in watercolour, their colour looks transparent and clean, and I guess that they paint straight onto watercolour paper or board. The fewer stages in the preperation, the less time spent - TM's Rule of Thumb.

There are many variations on these basic methods - coloured pencil, coloured line, coloured paper, airbrush on board using gouache, watercolour or inks... Sorry to have rambled on, but I'm still interested in the techniques, even if I don't want to do it anymore.



I don't usually just go around throwing complements, unless it has to do with breasts and their unveiling somehow ... so don't think that applies here. Just remember thinking this guy Matthews is amazing, where the hell did he drop from?
Long time ago, and have never seen one of your pieces that ever let me down. Thank-you for your amazing talent.
And, thanks even more for taking the time to explain much of this technique and approach here. I hope everyone appreciates how rare it is to get a chance to have someone give an impromptu seminar like happens here almost constantly. I need to copy this stuff out, just for reference for that cutaway project I want to do ... maybe next lifetime, as it is currently going.
Thanks to all for their recent active contributions, comments, cutaway files, updates, instructions, etc. Makes this truly a major treasure for folks who enjoy this type of thing.
Tom West

#6597 Tony Matthews

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 23:07

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1986 Ford Sierra RS Cosworth, Cosworth YBB engine. Ford's official cutaway. (Not sure if that means Collins).

I'm fairly sure that is not a Terry Collins cutaway. I think I've seen it in colour some years ago, attributed to a studio, possbly Studio Collins, but not the man himself - it doesn't look like his work.

#6598 macoran

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 23:17

I need to copy this stuff out, just for reference for that cutaway project I want to do ... maybe next lifetime, as it is currently going.
Tom West

what I am thinking Tom

#6599 TWest

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:39

Been a busy few days here, with the California Hot Rod Reunion last weekend, and a bit of an upset with some friends during the week. As a result, I have had a couple of illustrations sitting here that I have wanted to post, but haven't had the chance.
Both are David Kimble pieces from promotional inserts. We will start with the Ford Duratec V6 engine from 2000, as run in the Lincoln CS.
Tom West

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#6600 TWest

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:46

The second offering is the underneath side of the hyper-sophisticated NASCAR chassis as run in the Dodge Intrepid prototype car in 2000, just prior to the car actually running on the track. Pretty standard stuff, as they really restrict chassis mods, and even the bodies ought to be made in a mold. It is amazing how well these things run, considering that they run a GM A-body front suspension out of 1972 (basic configuration), and a 60s era rear suspension setup. Not to mention being a bit tank-like at almost 4000 pounds. Plus, when you do make a change, or have a bad crash, just weld in another diagonal tube, then make it standard to the rules.
Don't have to be a Nobel laureate to spec this series, believe me.
Tom West

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