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#6801 h4887

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 20:26

I think so many people are a bit blase' about living so close to a star!


Cliff Richard used to live about ten miles from here. I couldn't care less...

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#6802 Tony Matthews

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 20:28

Cliff Richard used to live about ten miles from here. I couldn't care less...

:lol: That's not blase', that's taste!

#6803 werks prototype

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 22:14

What car is this? Radial rear engine. Cutaway by Bob Temple.

Posted Image


How about this one off, prototype 'Julian' Ibsen, (What kind of a name is that for a car?)

http://www.flickr.co...202/4592646100/



#6804 ibsenop

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 23:22

Offenhauser Indy engine by Bob Temple

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#6805 werks prototype

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 23:56

I was just checking out your own illustrations, on your fotki site, Ibsen. They are pretty damn good! :up: And I didn't realise that you had done so many!

(I came across two similarly great Stuart Spencer profile drawings of Jaguar XJR-6's the other day. Alas, when I returned to the shop, just a few days later, the book was gone.)

#6806 T54

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 00:30

Offenhauser Indy engine by Bob Temple

Uh? An Offy without a barrel crankcase and big Webers? I don't think so... :)
OK, what is it? :drunk:

#6807 onelung

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 00:51

What car is this? 6 cylinder radial, air-cooled rear engine. Cutaway by Bob Temple.


SIX cylinder radial! Howdaydoodat?


#6808 macoran

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:14

SIX cylinder radial! Howdaydoodat?

aren't all radial engines multiples of 3 ?

#6809 ibsenop

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:17

Julian 6 1925

The unique design of the Julian 6, built by the Julian Brown Development Corp. of Syracuse, New York, incorporates a 60-hp. six-cylinder, air-cooled radial engine mounted horizontally under the rear deck.
The clutch, transmission and differential are located underneath the engine, with the rear wheels driven by axle shafts with universal joints.
Four forward and two reverse speeds are provided by a sliding gear and planetary gearing, located within the flywheel.
The frame consists of a 4 1/2-inch main tube with smaller diameter cross tubes at each end on which the body is mounted.
(Text from the web)

Edited by ibsenop, 07 November 2010 - 01:18.


#6810 onelung

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:22

aren't all radial engines multiples of 3 ?

Each bank will have an odd number of cylinders, so a 14cyl radial has two banks of 7, a 28 cylinder 4 rows etc.
It's possible to have an even number of cylinders if the radial is a two stroke or some other arrangement such as ...
Posted Image :eek:

#6811 macoran

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:49

Each bank will have an odd number of cylinders, so a 14cyl radial has two banks of 7, a 28 cylinder 4 rows etc.
It's possible to have an even number of cylinders if the radial is a two stroke or some other arrangement such as ...
Posted Image :eek:

OK, so should I rephrase. aren't all single bank/single row four stroke radials built as multiples of 3 or...even 5 ?

Edited by macoran, 07 November 2010 - 01:52.


#6812 werks prototype

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 08:26

OK, so should I rephrase. aren't all single bank/single row four stroke radials built as multiples of 3 or...even 5 ?


I see what you mean, I think it has to be an odd number, but not necessarily a multiple of 3 or 5. Because 7 is also used for a single row.

Edited by werks prototype, 07 November 2010 - 08:52.


#6813 werks prototype

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 08:37

It sounds as if the driver of the Julian had a 'McLaren F1' type seating position. As well as 'Victorian' type furniture, upon which to sit.

Julian

#6814 Tim Murray

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 08:42

An odd number of cylinders (for four-stroke engines) gives a more even firing order. As onelung indicated in his earlier post, there have been many successful radials with seven cylinders, or multiples thereof, eg Bristol Hercules (14 cylinders in two rows).

#6815 werks prototype

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 08:49

Posted Image
Sulzer R.N.D Marine engine. By John Marsden.

The three catwalks surrounding this engine, give you an idea of its scale.

#6816 ibsenop

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 09:51

Mclaren MP4 by Sergio Baratto

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from italian magazine "Rombo"

Edited by ibsenop, 07 November 2010 - 10:01.


#6817 ibsenop

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 09:59

Ligier JS17 by Sergio Baratto

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from italian magazine "Rombo"

Edited by ibsenop, 07 November 2010 - 10:01.


#6818 onelung

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 11:10

My final post on the radial engine theme - this one yet another way to get around the has-to-be-an-odd-number rule.
The designer of this probably tried to invent a better mouse trap, too... :stoned:
Posted Image

#6819 werks prototype

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 11:12

My final post on the radial engine theme - this one yet another way to get around the has-to-be-an-odd-number rule.
The designer of this probably tried to invent a better mouse trap, too... :stoned:
Posted Image


Jeepers! :up: Is that radial/rotary or rotary/radial?

Edited by werks prototype, 07 November 2010 - 11:13.


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#6820 Allan Lupton

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 13:04

My final post on the radial engine theme - this one yet another way to get around the has-to-be-an-odd-number rule.
The designer of this probably tried to invent a better mouse trap, too... :stoned:
Posted Image

As it isn't a conventional crank/piston/four-stroke engine all sorts of rules are suspended!
Here's a bit of what Paul Christiansen wrote about it (the Fairchild-Caminez Engine):
In 1923, while in the employ of the U.S. Army at McCook Field, Ohio, Mr. Wilbur Caminez became curious about the possibility of replacing the traditional crank and connecting rod method of converting linear motion to rotary motion. He suggested the use of a double-lobed cam on the driveshaft, the cam being directly driven by pistons with large roller bearings in their base, the bearings being kept in constant contact with the cam with paired link rods connecting the adjacent pistons in a rhombic parallelogram. The design produced a driveshaft (camshaft from hereon) running at half normal crankshaft speed, with every cylinder completing a power stroke on every revolution of the camshaft.

#6821 Tony Matthews

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 14:17

As it isn't a conventional crank/piston/four-stroke engine all sorts of rules are suspended!

The pistons look fairly weighty with those huge rollers on two-row ball bearings, a lot heavier than a conventional gudgeon pin and little-end I would think. However, I don't suppose it reved. very fast. It's always nice to see a fresh take on an internal combustion engine layout.

#6822 simplebrother

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 16:01

The pistons look fairly weighty with those huge rollers on two-row ball bearings, a lot heavier than a conventional gudgeon pin and little-end I would think. However, I don't suppose it reved. very fast. It's always nice to see a fresh take on an internal combustion engine layout.


Good observation - Citing an internet source:
In the mid-1920s, Harold Caminez designed a radial engine that was lighter and used about half the parts needed for a conventional radial while producing the same power. Instead of a crank shaft, his engine used a large camshaft. There was no need for connecting rods, crankshaft throws or counterweights, or valve timing gears. The engine produced its rating at only 1,000 rpm.
The Caminez 447 first flew in 1926. Because of its light weight and low rpm, it vibrated excessively and plans to market the engine were abandoned in 1929.
Bore x stroke: 5.625 x 4.5 inches = 447 cubic inches (7.3 liters, 125 hp).
Proposed as a replacement for the Wright E engine in the Consolidated PT-1 (US army/navy trainer) as the Consolidated XPT-4.

#6823 Tony Matthews

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 19:24

The engine produced its rating at only 1,000 rpm. The Caminez 447 first flew in 1926. Because of its light weight and low rpm, it vibrated excessively and plans to market the engine were abandoned in 1929.

The combination of light weight and low revs seems an odd combination for excess vibration. Surely it could have been balanced - although I know this isn't necessarily as straightforward as it might sound. Couldn't they move the prop a few degrees?

#6824 macoran

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 20:19

Another Giulio Betti for your study
The "Grosser 600"
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#6825 ibsenop

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 21:31

Packard by Bob Temple. What model? What year?

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#6826 werks prototype

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 00:39

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A very different type of engine from Mr Millar. Giant Cornish beam pumping engine. By Max Millar.

#6827 werks prototype

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 00:39

Posted Image
Some would say, the rather vulgar, 1980 Talbot Matra Rancho. By J. Mignon.

#6828 werks prototype

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 00:40

Posted Image
Bosch magneto for the Antoinette aircraft engine. Artist unknown.

#6829 Allan Lupton

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 08:37

Posted Image
Bosch magneto for the Antoinette aircraft engine. Artist unknown.

Oh, where can we get an advance mechanism like that for our cars' Bosch mags? So much more correct than just moving the contact points.

#6830 DOHC

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 09:29

I see what you mean, I think it has to be an odd number, but not necessarily a multiple of 3 or 5. Because 7 is also used for a single row.



As is nine. And in two banks, 18, like e.g. in the (somewhat bulky) P-47 Thunderbolt, which had a P&W "Double Wasp" behind the prop.

#6831 DOHC

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 09:33

I wonder if the centrifugal effect of the cooling fan made it easier to turn right rather than left.


Hardly. The differential angular momentum of the turning car would be negligible. In case the fan had a big moment of inertia, it might be a bit scary to floor it (the car), though.


#6832 werks prototype

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 09:49

As is nine. And in two banks, 18, like e.g. in the (somewhat bulky) P-47 Thunderbolt, which had a P&W "Double Wasp" behind the prop.


:up:

You mention the Wasp, two things that I would dearly like to see, in cutaway form, are the Wasp Major and the magnificent Lycoming R-7755.


#6833 DOHC

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:07

You naturally want something better than this, but this animation shows that it can't be a simple task to make a real cutaway.

#6834 Allan Lupton

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:23

An odd number of cylinders (for four-stroke engines) gives a more even firing order. As onelung indicated in his earlier post, there have been many successful radials with seven cylinders, or multiples thereof, eg Bristol Hercules (14 cylinders in two rows).

Just to get this straight, it is not a "more even firing order" but the only natural way of operating a four-stroke radial.
Remember that a four-stroke does everything during two crank turns so a radial is arranged to fire alternate cylinders in rotation so an odd number of cylinders fired alternately gets you back to the beginning in two revs having fired them all (e.g. in the order 1-3-5-7-9-2-4-6-8-1 (for a nine cylinder)). The other thing to remember is that the valves are operated by cam rings, one inlet and one exhaust, which are co-axial with the crankshaft and in order for them to work there has to be a simple and continuous sequence. Of course there's always one to "prove" one is wrong as the Lycoming XR-7755 had its four rows of 9 arranged without stagger and had twin OHC on each of the nine groups of four.
From (rusty) memory I don't think anyone used more than nine cylinders/row but I can offer examples of 3, 5, 7 and 9.

#6835 Christianus

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 11:58

Uh? An Offy without a barrel crankcase and big Webers? I don't think so... :)
OK, what is it? :drunk:

It doesn't look like an Offy. It looks like a Maserati engine.

#6836 werks prototype

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:19

You naturally want something better than this, but this animation shows that it can't be a simple task to make a real cutaway.


Magnificent!

#6837 Tony Matthews

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:34

Magnificent!

My word for it would be 'interesting', no more.

#6838 fnqvmuch

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 21:59

My word for it would be 'interesting', no more.


magnificence - i think - is to be found in Shinpachi's Shade 3DCG radials and other artifacts on this thread;
http://www.ww2aircra...d-19372-18.html
and for some interesting discussion of the 'inexact science' of radial engines;
http://www.warbirdin.../...f=3&t=38416
steven


#6839 werks prototype

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 22:13

magnificence - i think - is to be found in Shinpachi's Shade 3DCG radials and other artifacts on this thread;
http://www.ww2aircra...d-19372-18.html
and for some interesting discussion of the 'inexact science' of radial engines;
http://www.warbirdin.../...f=3&t=38416
steven


Some of the links to be found on those forums are pretty interesting. :up: 'old engines' etc

I'm now looking for a 'magnificent' animation of that Mitsubishi!

Edited by werks prototype, 08 November 2010 - 23:14.


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#6840 onelung

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 22:47

magnificence - i think - is to be found in Shinpachi's Shade 3DCG radials and other artifacts on this thread;
http://www.ww2aircra...d-19372-18.html
and for some interesting discussion of the 'inexact science' of radial engines;
http://www.warbirdin.../...f=3&t=38416
steven

Engines with slave/master rod arrangements are "inexact" - this is also the case for inlines (including V configuration) using master/slave.
The master cylinder has a slightly different stroke cf the slave cylinder(s).
BTW there was also an 11 cylinder rotary in WW1, the Siemens-Halske Sh.III, a single row motor in which the prop turned one way at 900 rpm and the engine turned in the opposite direction at 900. Siemens-Halske There's an example also in the Science Museum, Kensington.
Perhaps we should be getting back OT? :)

#6841 fnqvmuch

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 22:58

related - and not unattractive - technical illustrations, 14-cylinder radials; Nakajima 'Sakae' 21 schematic Posted Image
(from Shinpachi), and BMW 801;
Posted Image
Posted Image
(early 'iDrive' ) schematic in-house i guess, but don't have the cutaway's provenance i'm sorry ...

Edited by fnqvmuch, 08 November 2010 - 23:22.


#6842 werks prototype

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 23:12

Posted Image
'Rolling' with the engine theme, a rather nice, Ariel Square Four. Artist unknown (beyond, RIC...)

#6843 werks prototype

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 23:13

Posted Image
Renault Turbo V6. By Patrick Grace.

#6844 werks prototype

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 23:13

Posted Image
Twin Rotary Mazda. By Schlenzig.

#6845 Tony Matthews

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 23:45

Posted Image
'Rolling' with the engine theme, a rather nice, Ariel Square Four. Artist unknown (beyond, RIC...)

It's a shame that you can't tell from that that there are two crankshafts geared together.

#6846 fivestar

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 00:08


A few more automobile related cutaways.
1. Rotary Engines
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Posted Image

Gear box
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Enjoy Mike[5*]

#6847 onelung

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 01:18

I hope these satisfy the topic title in part...
Posted Image........................................................Posted Image
BTW, I recently got to heft a square 4 Ariel cylinder head: LOTS of weight! Big lump of engine indeed.

#6848 Tony Matthews

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 08:03

Offenhauser Indy engine by Bob Temple

Posted Image



Uh? An Offy without a barrel crankcase and big Webers? I don't think so... :)
OK, what is it? :drunk:

It might be a 1953 180 cu in Offy.

#6849 helioseism

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 21:32

1962 Ferrari 156 Sharknose F1 by Allington.


Posted Image

#6850 Tony Matthews

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 21:48

1962 Ferrari 156 Sharknose F1 by Allington.


Posted Image

Wow! Another from the 'Mists of Time' series! That rear end would make a good 'Spot the Difference (or Differential)' competition, not so much because of their minuteness or concealment, just the sheer number of them! I stippled the RF tyre, and may have fiddled with some other small bits, but I had been working full-time for Jim for no more than a year at this stage - 18 years old - and Jim drew most of this, I think, in France at his parents-in-law's mill near Le Mans. He probably brought it back with one tyre unfinished and handed it to me while he finished the alternative rear end.

Edited by Tony Matthews, 09 November 2010 - 21:49.