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#651 fines

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 08:22

:)

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#652 Tony Matthews

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 08:22

Originally posted by aaron
Tony, did you do any of the M16 series? A1


Sorry aaron, I didn't - I wish I had. Mind you, there are so many cars that I would have loved to have drawn, either when they were new or as 'classics', but it wasn't to be...

Peter, between us I'm sure Nigel (hello Nigel) and I can tell you everything you want to know. I just have to root out the photographs. You certainly won't discover much from my cutaway!

#653 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 11:29

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
Posted Image

Here is the M26 Peter, my first freelance cutaway, as I left MN in Feb 1976. Done in the same way as the MS colour cutaways, poster paint on CS2 line board, before I learnt the error of my ways and started using proper materials. The artwork was given to Marlboro GB and I know it was used once, very small, in at least one publication, but only the Americans used artwork properly, getting some mileage out of the commission.

I may be able to find an M23, as I said, a very simplistic cutaway, but - I do have all the photographs!


Tony - many thanks for that - no, i havent seen that one before.... "I do have all the photographs" - i feel an invitation to lunch coming on here... !

rgds

Peter

#654 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 11:35

Originally posted by Nigel Beresford


Peter,

my dad oversaw the assembly of the tubs, and I watched them going together several times. What did you want to know?

Thanks, Nigel


Nigel - Hello! funnily enough i was wondering about that very thing after i posted - never met your father but very much aware of him from other McLaren contacts of the era. I was wondering specifically how the deformable structure was integrated into the side structure and those integral radiator ducts - i have a question in my mind as to which bits are glassfibre (or any), and which are aluminium, and where the foam core is. most of this era of car is fairly easy to read in this respect - indeed Tony's very welcome post of the M26 above has answered a few questions on that one - but the M23 has always confused me. i guess we need to mark up a suitable picture of the tub? the only picture i have seen of an m23 tub in construction is a very small one in , of all things, an Embassy Hill promo book from 1974!

Any clues most welcome.

rgds
Peter

PS Do you still keep in touch with Gene btw?

#655 Tony Matthews

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 12:33

Posted Image

M26. Not sure how to imageshack and post more than one pic per go, here is one Peter, two more to follow.

#656 Tony Matthews

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 12:36

Posted Image

#657 Tony Matthews

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 12:38

Posted Image

There are a few more, however, not nearly as much as I thought of the M23, that must be why the cutaway was a bit (!) basic - if you don't have the info...

#658 Pils1989

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 12:42

I really like this thread :up:

#659 macoran

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 13:20

some tub reconstruction going on here, which you may have already seen:M26 ?
http://images.google...ttp...l=nl&sa=N

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#660 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 15:37

Originally posted by macoran
some tub reconstruction going on here, which you may have already seen:M26 ?
http://images.google...ttp...l=nl&sa=N


hi- no i hadnt, very interesting, many thanks for the link. i see there are a march 761. williams fw04 and hesketh 308e tubs also pictured -excellent!

peter

#661 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 15:40

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
Posted Image

There are a few more, however, not nearly as much as I thought of the M23, that must be why the cutaway was a bit (!) basic - if you don't have the info...

Tony - those are EXACTLY the sort of pictures i was looking for! Many thanks for posting - and lots of questions answered - including the M26 'integral oil tank' construction. i think Anders will be salivating when he returns to the thread after his day trip out in Denmark!

Peter

#662 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 15:53

Originally posted by PeterElleray


hi- no i hadnt, very interesting, many thanks for the link. i see there are a march 761. williams fw04 and hesketh 308e tubs also pictured -excellent!

peter


Hi again - been having a closer look - i think the top two are definately Tyrrell type 006 - which 006 i am not sure. not aware of 005 , with similar tub having had a full up rebuild, or 006-2 (the stewart car, in Donnington for many years). so, i guess i am looking at either a reconstruction of the Cevert tub damaged at Mosport Park in 1973 - which has reemerged in recent years in historic racing - or something a bit darker - i think the former.

Peter

#663 bradbury west

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 22:03

Going through a raft of 60's Autosports, I had forgotten just how many Theo Page cutaways were published in those days. I have just come across a double page drawing of Len Terry's masterwork, the Eagle F1 car.
BTW this quarter's VSCC magazine has cutaways of a JAP Vee twin 8/75 from the 30s, and a Vic Berris/Autocar drawing of a 1914 Mercedes benz GP engine
Roger Lund

#664 Bonde

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 00:55

I'm salivating over my keyboard! I spend a Saturday at the factory and then all this happens while I'm away...that M26 tub looks mightily complex and challenging to build. It also looks quite strong.

Welcome back, Peter!

Tony, I'd never seen that M26 either. It's interesting to see how your style evolved over the years, although your first freelance cutaway is already of a remarkably high standard. Even in 1976 I remember savouring anything signed T. Matthews, although I must admit most of my earliest cutaway inspirations came from the 3-volume 'Marabout Dictionaire de Voitures de Sport et de Competition' by Erwin Tragatsch, which contains numerous older black-and-white cutaway pictures. The first of your cutaways I recall seeing were the yellow D-Type Jaguar and the 312T - from that point on you were the yard stick, with Bruno Betti second for colour work and Allington a very close second for line work.

I guess I'll begin by answering Marc's Inquisition, just to get it out of the way:

"But, I think your answers will be interesting enough for other posters to enjoy as well."

I hope so - otherwise I apologize for boring everyone to sleep...

Q: Did you have a sort of dream or “ingiving”..(for want of a better English word)..
when you started the IKANTIKI cutaway…?

A: I can't really remember, but the 'Dictionaire' mentioned above bought for my pocket money savings had something to do with it. I just made up the 'design' as I wen't along.

Q: what inspired you to undertake such a task, where other lads your age would have been happy with a few scribbles?

A: From an early age I was fascinated by the challenge of drawing 'photographs' of my own creations - a safe way for a boy to obtain praise from parents and peers. My dad was a much more naturally talented artist than I'll ever be, so something probably runs in the family - my 6 year old son is drawing all the time, too.

Q: Did you make all kinds of preliminary sketches?

A: No - not in those days (today I would)

Q: you detailed as you went along ?

A: Yes.

Q: Really amazing that you already had such in depth technical knowledge and insight to
produce the features which highlight IKANTIKI as a state of the art racer from Matlos.
Were there many other race car designers on the island ?

A: My technical knowledge was in fact highly superficial. I also had a 'brand' called ABC, which was mostly concerned with sidevalve small saloons and 2-stroke microcars and such like. For some reason I loved two-strokes when I was a kid - the funny sound, the smoke and its distinct smell.

Q: How many tracks were there ?

A: Can't remember, but they were true road courses with many dangerous features.

Q:... and was there a National Championship ?

A: I suppose there was, certainly in the lesser formulae.

Q: I presume as well that a certain Matleese driver named Bonde, Anders Bonde always
raced with number ..7 ?

A: No Bonde, but John Paul Clevert (sic), Howard McBride (sic), Bill Holland (sic) early champ-turned-team manager. I just happen to think the numeral "7" looks good on a racing car, if it can't be "1" ('twas also the easiest to piant onto my cardboard models...)

Q: How did team IKANTIKI travel to the Continental races in that 1957 Championship year ?
Did team IKANTIKI have a transporter ? I am sure your fellow countryman Bjorn Kjer would
like to see what it looked like for his transporter thread.

A: I don't recall ever thinking about transporters - sorry!

Q: As for some of the design features, I recognise a form of de Dion rear suspension with
a high mounted de Dion link. Does it have a central fulcrum or is the double jointed
connexion straight below the 5 of the *1957* one of two carrying it ? You have also
managed to design a lot of stiffness into the rear suspension to run it without radius rods.

A: Made up as I went along to look 'technical' when I was actually very ignorant of how the things worked.

Q: I don’t think your modern day Aquila even manages that ?

A: No! I'm not quite as technically ignorant as I used to be...

Q: As a quick sideline….did you ever consider naming your modern day race designs IKANTIKI ?

A: It actually did cross my mind - but the name is so awkward, IMO - and having to explain people what it means would have been tiresome. I did paint my real Formula Fords in my youth's imaginary sponsor's, NMP, livery. When asked what it was I usually answered 'Nu Mangles Penge' - 'Now I'm short of money'.

Q: Was the engine for the IKANTIKI a bespoke unit ?

A: Yes - like Ferrari and BRM, everything was 'in-house'.

Q: The extension to the right side of the cambox seems to house a drive to an aggregated distributor/coil unit.

A: Yes - ignorance dressed up to look good...

Q: It also seems that the oil pump drive has been taken off the front of the right hand camshaft ?

A: I have no idea - remember, I didn't design it - I just drew it!;)

Q: Am I mistaken to think that the IKANTIKI engine has its timing distribution drive (by chain ?)
on the rear of the engine ?

A: Well - it certainly looks that way...

Q: I see a “pannier” tank strapped to the right side of the chassis, was this for the longer
distance races ?, or was the tail tank too small anyway because of the transmission ?

A: All fuel was in side tanks - even then I thought it silly to house it outside the wheelbase, well aft of the C of G.

Q: Your Matleese engineering background (I presume you are a graduate of M.I.T ? ...Matlos
Institute of Technology? ) also seems to have helped you overcome the problem which
“threw” other designer gurus of the day, as you have managed a very low slung prop shaft
to the rear mounted gearbox.

A: Heh - transfer gears at poth ends of the shaft. You can actually see the casing for the gear train on the front of the transaxle.

Q: And…….do I see a form of disc brake on the end of the gearbox ?

A: I must've seen pictures of BRM's 'bacon slicer'...

Q: Is this cutaway of the IKANTIKI of the original or modified car ? It looks like the wing mirror
bracing has been stiffened quite a bit due to too much vibration….possibly after the
Matleese GP….one of the toughest races on the 1957 calender.

A: I still had (have) a lot to learn about perspective. My imaginary tracks made Nürburgring look like a Tilkedrome (just kidding!), but strawbales, cobblestones, tram lines and all manner of solid objects lined the tracks...

Q: Well, once again I applaud your great teenage masterpiece, and I even dare say I find it better
(pro rata) than your 1981 Gr5 Comprex Escort.

A: Thank you! I do think the Grp 5 Escort is an improvement, technically much more realistic although it, too, was made up as I went along. The Escort original was coloured whereas the '1957' was only shaded with pencil greytone.

Q: I have also noted some of your other interests…….

A: Which?

Q: I’ll toast you with a shot of Auchantoshan now.

A: What?

Q: as to any cutaway I try doing having anything to do with a Connew ?? when I wrote BB I meant
Bulletin Board not Barry Boor.

A: :)


Yawn - the M26 etc. will have to wait until tomorrow...

#665 Rancethebus

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 11:51

Hello Everyone,

I have been waiting for a site like this ever since I got onto the Internet. I am a professional Technical Illustrator and the reality of that is that I have been working in the Aerospace sector on and off for over 36 years. This means that instead of drawing the wonderful cutaway illustrations that are on this forum, I spend my day drawing nuts, bolts, washers and P-clips. I have been an admirer of the work of Tony Matthews since I use to get Motoring News every week back in the sixties and seventies. In fact is was partly Tony's work that got me into Technical Illustration. The actual thing that got me illustrating was a cutaway of a Jensen Interceptor FF by Arthur Williams that was shown to me while I was on a vocational course at Art College.
As I said I have been an admirer of Tony Matthew's work since the Motoring News days and I have made a point of collecting as much of his work as I could over the years. I did collect the March 735 and the Trojan T102 and Brabham BT34. I will scan them and post at a later date.
I did not become aware of James Allington, Tony's Mentor until a few years ago when I came across an auction catalogue of his work and the associated vehicles that went with them. What amazes me is how he managed to acquire some of the vehicles which he had in his collection. I know he received some good commissions from Supercar Classics and such like but some of the cars he acquired were worth a fortune.
I have acquired some original illustrations over the years. Some time ago Christies and latterly Bonhams had auctions of the artwork that was produced by various artists for "The Autocar" and "Motor" magazines. I missed the first auction with the best stuff but managed to attend the last auction in Chelsea where I acquired around a dozen. After this auction there was a large number of "unsold" lots and I badgered the managing director of Haymarket Publishing, Mr Verdon-Roe until he succumbed to my offer. In total I acquired over 1500 individual pieces of artwork. Some were very simple diagrams but others were originals by Max Millar, John Ferguson,(one of my favourites) Mike Badrocke and Lawrence Watts. I have been selling them over the years out of necessity but still have some left. Many of these illustrations were in a sorry state where water had got into them. The corners were missing in some cases as well but even an illustration with great chunks of it missing is still worth a great deal to a collector of the work of Frederick Gordon-Crosby.
For those who are enthusiasts of Motoring Cutaway art, Haynes have recently published a book entited The Classic Cutaways. This is 100 of the favourite cutaways of the Haynes workshop manuals which were created by Terry Davey.
I wonder if Tony has thought of Auctioning his originals. I for one would love to own one. I know it is difficult to part with original artwork because of the sentimentality but I expect that Tony has an electronic copy of his artworks.
As you are fans of of motor racing some of you will also be fans of all things mechanical. I have attached two illustrations that I was lucky enough to carry out during my career. Not motoring based I'm afraid but I hope you will find them interesting nonetheless. Unlike Tony's these were not done on a board with pencil, rapidograph and then airbrush but with modern day software of Isodraw, and Adobe illustrator. I hope you like them.
As I said previously, I will at a later time scan the illustrations I have of Tony's work and upload them and at a later date again, the work of James Allington. Posted Image Posted Image

#666 macoran

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 12:23

Thanks for that Anders.....enlightening! I hope it didn't keep you up too late.

Now what's all this about M26, but reading between the lines some of you are very interested in how it goes together. I have just found an old copy of the Dutch magazine AutoVisie with an M26 cutaway. It's not signed by the artist, but by Technical Art. Not as much "tub" detail as in Tony's but some interesting different details.
So for our "study" case I'll scan and post it here for educational purposes.

bytheby Auchantoshan is a whiskey, but I should have spelled it Auchentoshan.

Posted ImagePosted Image

Copyright AUTOVisie / Technical Art
Could it be the "Graham Cooke" Peter speaks of ?

haven't had time to stitch the two together..so this'll have to do for now.

#667 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 12:36

Originally posted by PeterElleray


Nigel - Hello! funnily enough i was wondering about that very thing after i posted - never met your father but very much aware of him from other McLaren contacts of the era. I was wondering specifically how the deformable structure was integrated into the side structure and those integral radiator ducts - i have a question in my mind as to which bits are glassfibre (or any), and which are aluminium, and where the foam core is. most of this era of car is fairly easy to read in this respect - indeed Tony's very welcome post of the M26 above has answered a few questions on that one - but the M23 has always confused me. i guess we need to mark up a suitable picture of the tub? the only picture i have seen of an m23 tub in construction is a very small one in , of all things, an Embassy Hill promo book from 1974!

Any clues most welcome.

rgds
Peter

PS Do you still keep in touch with Gene btw?


Peter, look at a Yardley liveried M23 - all of the exterior areas painted orange are a thin fibreglass moulding, including all of the inner surfaces and leading edges of the duct. The construction was a kind of cavity wall, with the outer white painted surfaces aluminium, obviously. The cavity was filled under pressure with a 2 part foam using a special mixing gun my father obtained. The feed and bleed holes are at the back of the tub, in the recesses where the rads fit. Along the flank of the tub there was obviously a curved aluminium panel set in from the fibreglass, to form an inner wall to encapsulate the foam. I remember my dad and Gordon Coppuck spending ages discussing the construction of the car, i.e. how to build it, while I hung around in the background in the DO listening in. I was lucky enough to spend my school holidays as a gofer at McLarens during the early 70s - the advantage of having a dad who was works manager. Not many 14 year olds get to do that these days.

Thanks, Nigel

#668 PeterElleray

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 13:47

Originally posted by Nigel Beresford


Peter, look at a Yardley liveried M23 - all of the exterior areas painted orange are a thin fibreglass moulding, including all of the inner surfaces and leading edges of the duct. The construction was a kind of cavity wall, with the outer white painted surfaces aluminium, obviously. The cavity was filled under pressure with a 2 part foam using a special mixing gun my father obtained. The feed and bleed holes are at the back of the tub, in the recesses where the rads fit. Along the flank of the tub there was obviously a curved aluminium panel set in from the fibreglass, to form an inner wall to encapsulate the foam. I remember my dad and Gordon Coppuck spending ages discussing the construction of the car, i.e. how to build it, while I hung around in the background in the DO listening in. I was lucky enough to spend my school holidays as a gofer at McLarens during the early 70s - the advantage of having a dad who was works manager. Not many 14 year olds get to do that these days.

Thanks, Nigel


Nigel - many thanks for that. the power of tnf, its only taken me 36 years to work that one out! one final question would be to confirm that the upper face of what we can call the side tank bay, which flares out to become the upper outer face of the rad duct, is aluminium (white on the yardley car, so i believe this is correct?). im also assuming that the tub floor is all aluminium? i know think that the small shot i have of the m23 under construction shows the tub before the glass moulding is attached. i will try to post it -its very small im afraid. i knew Gordon C quite well and worked for him briefly in the 80's but it isnt easy to drop into casual conversation, "oh, by the way, how did you do the deformable structures on the m23?..." i knew Maurice Phillippe a little better and soon worked out that a similar question would get a very detailed and full discorse until he worked out that i'd knobled him again(!) when it would be 'but that was in the past, this is now(!)" - until i knobled him again. wonderful man.

rgds
peter

ps marc - thanks for the additional m26 cutaway - am i the only one here who thinks that the m23 structure was actually more elegant than the m26? - over to Anders i think...

#669 ibsenop

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 13:47

Hi everybody,
This forum is all I hoped see. Cutaways and detail shots of my dream cars.
I'm a big fan of cutaway and four view drawings and the most impressive of them are the cutaways of Tony Matthews.
I've working on a architectural studio for over 30 years. I love draw cars. I never tried to do a cutaway, but I have designed "five views" of some my favorite cars (just for fun).
I learned to draw in the old method but moved to the computer and I like it.
The computer, for me, is only an eletronic drawing board. All shapes, lights, shadows, etc. are done by me like a hand drawing. I can copy, strech and deform any shape with less effort than by hand.
I will be glad if Tony post the Lola T280 cutaway (size 1280x747 like the Ferrari 312P).

Here some of my drawings:
http://images23.fotk...rdLarrousse.jpg
http://images30.fotk...riguezPiper.jpg
http://images33.fotk...steinDibley.jpg
http://images28.fotk...erVonTripps.jpg

Ibsen

#670 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 14:07

Originally posted by PeterElleray


Nigel - many thanks for that. the power of tnf, its only taken me 36 years to work that one out! one final question would be to confirm that the upper face of what we can call the side tank bay, which flares out to become the upper outer face of the rad duct, is aluminium (white on the yardley car, so i believe this is correct?). im also assuming that the tub floor is all aluminium? i know think that the small shot i have of the m23 under construction shows the tub before the glass moulding is attached. i will try to post it -its very small im afraid. i knew Gordon C quite well and worked for him briefly in the 80's but it isnt easy to drop into casual conversation, "oh, by the way, how did you do the deformable structures on the m23?..." i knew Maurice Phillippe a little better and soon worked out that a similar question would get a very detailed and full discorse until he worked out that i'd knobled him again(!) when it would be 'but that was in the past, this is now(!)" - until i knobled him again. wonderful man.

rgds
peter

ps marc - thanks for the additional m26 cutaway - am i the only one here who thinks that the m23 structure was actually more elegant than the m26? - over to Anders i think...


Peter,
you are right, the top surface was all aluminium - one of these days I'll do a sketch. The floor was ally too, as you suggest. To digress slightly, the M24 Indy car, whilst superficially similar to the M23, was constructed somewhat differently, with a thick steel sheet floor pan (to get the tub up to the weight required) and a taller fuel storage behind the driver, but cut off at the car centreline, if I recall correctly. That is to say, no fuel in the RHS of the monocoque, as mandated by the rules of the time. The fuel was carried in one big L shaped bag. The M23 and M26 constructions were very different. The M26 used aluminium honeycomb in structural panels (as can be seen in some of the pics on the forum), and the cockpit side panels were glass with a nomex core. I know my dad was very proud of the work they did in this area (i.e. the introduction of cored construction) - McLaren were for sure at the forefront of composite application to race cars even before JB's MP4/1.

Maurice was a lovely guy - he gave me my first job in F1 at Tyrrell. As you imply, he was good for a story about the past. He never seemed to get the credit he was due. Let's face it, the 49, 56 and 72 were pretty good to have on your CV. Gordon is well, I saw him at Teddy Mayer's memorial recently and he is enjoying retirement.

#671 PeterElleray

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 14:19

Nigel - thanks for that - you are right about the M26 being leading edge in technology, i wouldnt want to decry that - but i do think the m23 is quite 'neat'. i will try to post the one shot i have of it under construction:
Posted Image

does that work for everyone?

peter

#672 PeterElleray

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 14:23

well - i can see it (!) but that doesnt mean everyone else can from previous experience. anyway, if you can (Nigel), what is happening at the transition between the sloping footbox outer panel , and the outer tank (aluminium) panel, just behind wher the dash panel is fixed?

rgds

Peter

glad to hear Gordon is well btw.

#673 PeterElleray

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 14:33

Here's one a took s few years ago :
Posted Image

not in yardley colours but im assuming that rivet line denotes the joint between grp and ally ?

looking at this and the first one i posted i guess that i am looking at a small traingular diaphram at the front of the tank outer side skin, bridging the gap to the footbox outer(and with a reflection showing on this in the picture)? the grp then comes forwards of this and lands daigonally on the footbox skin and thats the rivet line ? is that the way it works?

peter

#674 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 14:44

Originally posted by PeterElleray
well - i can see it (!) but that doesnt mean everyone else can from previous experience. anyway, if you can (Nigel), what is happening at the transition between the sloping footbox outer panel , and the outer tank (aluminium) panel, just behind wher the dash panel is fixed?

rgds

Peter

glad to hear Gordon is well btw.


If I recall correctly, and understand your question correctly, the sloped surface ran back to the small transverse bulkhead panel which can be seen in the picture. This area was then boxed in on the side by the fibreglass panel, which was bonded and riveted to the sloped surface. I don't think the deformable structure extended forwards of the small bulkhead panel. The picture isn't very clear, and it makes it look like the floor panel is cut away in front of that small bulkhead, but I think it's black tape or somesuch on those surfaces. The floor panel covered the whole of the silhouette of the base of the chassis.

Thanks

Nigel

#675 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 14:45

Originally posted by PeterElleray
Here's one a took s few years ago :
Posted Image

not in yardley colours but im assuming that rivet line denotes the joint between grp and ally ?

looking at this and the first one i posted i guess that i am looking at a small traingular diaphram at the front of the tank outer side skin, bridging the gap to the footbox outer(and with a reflection showing on this in the picture)? the grp then comes forwards of this and lands daigonally on the footbox skin and thats the rivet line ? is that the way it works?

peter


Yes! Your explanation was much more succinct than mine.

Nigel

#676 B Squared

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 14:52

Peter - I will confirm for you that I can see your posted images. Thanks to Tony, Nigel, you, and so many others in the thread with far more knowledge than I. The detailed descriptions and drawings even make sense to a sideline wanker like myself! I thoroughly enjoy the collective insight.

Brian

#677 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 15:22

Posted Image
The honeycomb layer that Nigel mentioned can be seen in the photo above.

Edited to remove most of the photos, as I didn't think it correct to have them here, apart from the one showing the honeycomb that Nigel mentioned. If anyone is interested in seeing them in another thread I can re-post them.

#678 PeterElleray

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 15:33

Originally posted by Nigel Beresford


Yes! Your explanation was much more succinct than mine.

Nigel


Nigel - excellent - interesting to read earlier of the conversations between your father and Gordon -knowing how Gordon was very good at talking practicalities through with the guys at the sharp end, on the shop floor, i'm curious where the original idea for this methodology came from? recalling most of the cars from that year, even some of the new ones built specifically to the deformable structure regs were happy to just add 'thick bodywork' to the tub flanks, the M23 is much more sophistocated.. downside of that was the damage to m23-3 (?) as demolished by scheckter at silverstone - but i guess Gordon and everyone else had taken that possibility onboard from day 1 and were prepared to accept it for the benefits they saw in adding stiffness and strength instead of just extra weight and somewhat 'token' protection - i dont ever recall an m23 going up like a bonfire in its long lifesapn and few hard knocks?

Posted Image

copied from autocourse 1973/4.

peter

#679 PeterElleray

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 15:43

Tony - excellent, many thanks - but i fear i have hijacked the thread and turned it into a mclaren -fest - shall we start a new one??..

peter

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#680 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 15:45

Originally posted by PeterElleray


Nigel - excellent - interesting to read earlier of the conversations between your father and Gordon -knowing how Gordon was very good at talking practicalities through with the guys at the sharp end, on the shop floor, i'm curious where the original idea for this methodology came from? recalling most of the cars from that year, even some of the new ones built specifically to the deformable structure regs were happy to just add 'thick bodywork' to the tub flanks, the M23 is much more sophistocated.. downside of that was the damage to m23-3 (?) as demolished by scheckter at silverstone - but i guess Gordon and everyone else had taken that possibility onboard from day 1 and were prepared to accept it for the benefits they saw in adding stiffness and strength instead of just extra weight and somewhat 'token' protection - i dont ever recall an m23 going up like a bonfire in its long lifesapn and few hard knocks?

Posted Image

copied from autocourse 1973/4.

peter

The worst M23 accident was undoubtedly Mike Hailwood's at the Nurburgring in 1974. If you had seen how compressed and twisted the tub was afterwards you'd wonder that he survived at all - I was astonished. I can't answer you specifically on the genesis of the M23 method of construction. I clearly remember the scheme Gordon drew, and I clearly remember the conversations I referenced earlier, but I don't think there was a moment of epiphany. The whole place was stuffed with clever and creative people, all of whom had the opportunity to conceive, create and test their ideas. As you say, the Lotus and Tyrrell approach to incorporating the deformable structure was much less integrated, but perhaps this was simply due to where each team happened to be in its development cycle at the start of '73. The other teams were developing existing cars whilst McLaren were at the point where they were doing a new car, so it was "easy" to integrate the requirements of the new rules. I don't recall any stiffness testing being done on the tubs at that time, but they must have known that any gains in that area would be a benefit.

#681 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 15:51

Well I've run out of 'tub' shots of the M26 anyway - and nothing worth showing of the M23. Typical, the one you really want I can't help with! Perhaps I'd better stick a drawing on next time, but I don't want to hog the thread, I'd like to hear more from Rancethebus - hello - and he's not the only illustrator to draw hardware, I may have mentioned before having to illustrate every item of Ford hardware! One thousand two hundered-odd parts, I seem to remember.

#682 PeterElleray

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 16:13

Originally posted by Nigel Beresford

The worst M23 accident was undoubtedly Mike Hailwood's at the Nurburgring in 1974. If you had seen how compressed and twisted the tub was afterwards you'd wonder that he survived at all - I was astonished. I can't answer you specifically on the genesis of the M23 method of construction. I clearly remember the scheme Gordon drew, and I clearly remember the conversations I referenced earlier, but I don't think there was a moment of epiphany. The whole place was stuffed with clever and creative people, all of whom had the opportunity to conceive, create and test their ideas. As you say, the Lotus and Tyrrell approach to incorporating the deformable structure was much less integrated, but perhaps this was simply due to where each team happened to be in its development cycle at the start of '73. The other teams were developing existing cars whilst McLaren were at the point where they were doing a new car, so it was "easy" to integrate the requirements of the new rules. I don't recall any stiffness testing being done on the tubs at that time, but they must have known that any gains in that area would be a benefit.


Understood - funny how the best cars seem to evolve when there is a collective creative synergy between like minded people who know their stuff - or perhaps not surprising at all come to think of it!

Tyrrell 006 and the Lotus 72 are the two that do some to mind as you say, but when 007 was produced in 1974 that had a sort of 'add-on' bodywork version of the m23's integrated rad ducts.. Bit like the 75 ensign (or should that be the 75 ensign was a bit like the 74 tyrrell..). of the constructors that built new cars in '73 i think that the Brabham BT42, Surtees TS14, Williams FW01, Shadowe DN1 and Ensign N173 did all have integated structures - usually foam in between two sheets of aluminium - and infact the 'hard bodywork' perhaps crept in a little later, the Tyrrell and Ensign being good examples, also the contemporary Ferrari's (including Lauda's Nurburgring T2..).

i think Gordon once told me how stiff the tub was, typically i cant remember but i do seem to think that it put the Arrows (A9) carbon tub that we were standing over at the time, and collectively crying into, to shame... !

peter

#683 macoran

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 16:31

Tony's photos of the front bulkhead beat me to it, but this is from
the article in Autocar w/e 25 Feb 77, with J.Hostler centrespread cutaway.
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#684 PeterElleray

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 17:12

hi marc - yes, got that thanks - do you have the piola sketches from autosport (and doubtless elsewhere ) from 1974 ? i can scan and post if not..
rgds

peter

#685 macoran

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 17:43

Originally posted by PeterElleray
do you have the piola sketches from autosport (and doubtless elsewhere ) from 1974 ? i can scan and post if not..
rgds

peter


Hello Peter,
The last months of 73 and most of 74, I missed out on F1 coverage, because I was on the road travelling from Bangkok to Rotterdam. The countries in the Far and Middle East as well as the Eastern part of the continent weren't really the place to be, to get a copy of any type of magazine with F1 content.
Finally, of course I started hitting gold when passing through Italy and France what with all the fabulous magazines they had. But..horror !! by that time I had gone through so much money I had to leave the Autosprints and the Quattroruote and go for a bag of baguettes and a chunk of chorizo or formaggio.
I will PM you as well Peter.

#686 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 17:55

Originally posted by Rancethebus
,I did not become aware of James Allington, Tony's Mentor until a few years ago when I came across an auction catalogue of his work and the associated vehicles that went with them. What amazes me is how he managed to acquire some of the vehicles which he had in his collection. I know he received some good commissions from Supercar Classics and such like but some of the cars he acquired were worth a fortune.


Don't think for one moment that commisions such as Supercar Classics paid for Jim's cars! It is also worth remembering that in the sixties and seventies classic cars were a lot cheaper, even in real terms. Wouldn't you like to go back 40 years with a copy of Motor Sport, open at the classified section, and £10,000 in your back pocket?

I think Jim was paid £30 per cutaway by Road and Track, I may be wrong, but if I am it ain't by a lot. I am sure that Jim was never paid as much for an illustration as I was, I think his enthusiasm for competition cars began to wane in the seventies whereas I was as interested in the latest shapes and techniques, only in the last few years finding F1 a bit 'samey', with suspension only changing in detail and engines looking really bland - all the real innovation was in electronics, which you can't see, or aerodynamics, which you don't need a cutaway to see. But at least I was working in the era of sponsorship, and that, as I've said before, made it possible to earn a reasonable living.

Up to the end Jim was working for FMC producing workshop manual illustrations, all to a specified style, the sort of work that induced me to leave his employ in 1970.

#687 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 18:01

Originally posted by macoran
...haven't had time to stitch the two together..so this'll have to do for now.


Even un-stitched it looks better than mine, Marc!

#688 Stephen Miller

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 18:45

Hi Tony

I found your M26 cutaway as the advertising centre fold in the 1977 Monaco Grand Prix Program. Unforunately your name as the illustrator is not included. But it is definitely your illustration!

Stephen



Here is the M26 Peter, my first freelance cutaway, as I left MN in Feb 1976. Done in the same way as the MS colour cutaways, poster paint on CS2 line board, before I learnt the error of my ways and started using proper materials. The artwork was given to Marlboro GB and I know it was used once, very small, in at least one publication, but only the Americans used artwork properly, getting some mileage out of the commission.

I may be able to find an M23, as I said, a very simplistic cutaway, but - I do have all the photographs! [/B][/QUOTE]

#689 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 19:41

Originally posted by Stephen Miller
I found your M26 cutaway as the advertising centre fold in the 1977 Monaco Grand Prix Program. Unforunately your name as the illustrator is not included. But it is definitely your illustration!


No wonder I never saw it, Stephen!

#690 vadim

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 21:13

Originally posted by macoran


...haven't had time to stitch the two together..so this'll have to do for now.


Hi Marc,
I found couple of minutes :)

Sorry, I really made it in haste. Only after I posted an image I've detected a difference in the tint of front and rear tyres.

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#691 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 21:44

Tony - is this the pic we've discussed off-line? Might be my eye-site but I can't see a signature anywhere. I've just bought an A3 version but the bloke selling it has done (copied) an A1 version too - not sure if I have any walls at home ready for re-papering!!

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#692 macoran

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 21:51

Originally posted by vadim


Hi Marc,
I found couple of minutes :)

Sorry, I really made it in haste. Only after I posted an image I've detected a difference in the tint of front and rear tyres.


Very well done Vadim, and I don't really see too much colour difference from the original !

#693 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 22:23

Originally posted by vadim
Sorry, I really made it in haste. Only after I posted an image I've detected a difference in the tint of front and rear tyres.

Thanks for posting that Vadim, very interesting. I still think it looks nicer than my effort, but whoever did the drawing had a problem with lack of information, there are obvious errors, but I quite understand that, the reason my version of the M23 was so simple was that I didn't have the information either, but I have a pathological aversion to making things up or deliberately falsifying detail. Perhaps I should have been collaborating with Anders, we could have ruled the World of Technical Illustration!

#694 Rancethebus

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 22:28

Further to my last post, where I omitted to post my illustrations, I have tried this time to include them. Enjoy!http://[IMG]http://img124.images...awayrigh.th.jpg[/IMG] http://[IMG]http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6307/apachecolourcutawayleft.th.jpg[/IMG]

#695 vadim

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 22:43

Originally posted by macoran


Very well done Vadim, and I don't really see too much colour difference from the original !


Marc, you absolutely right.

Since I can't find a sharp colour border between ex-right and ex-left part, I would say that it was not a mistake under printing. So I can find only one reason for this difference: an author made the front tyre especially in a bit warmer tint 'cause the warm tint always pretend to put in the forefront.

#696 macoran

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 22:45

Great looking stuff Rancethebus !

#697 macoran

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 22:50

Originally posted by vadim


Marc, you absolutely right.

Since I can't find a sharp colour border between ex-right and ex-left part, I would say that it was not a mistake under printing. So I can find only one reason for this difference: an author made the front tyre especially in a bit warmer tint 'cause the warm tint always pretend to put in the forefront.


Yes vadim, there should not be any colour difference, because my original posting is scanned from a two page spread centrefold....so it is a a print run with identical ink mixing.
Artists, like poets have license to..tint !

#698 Bonde

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 23:37

If it ain't work, it's family requiring my attention...

Peter,

I think that we'd better find, or open, a more appropriate thread regarding the M23 and M26 chassis details, so I'll defer comment for now (or maybe I just don't have anything to contribute?). I've seen a series of photos taken the moment poor Hailwoods M23 snapped sharp right and into the barrier, with an embankment right behind it. There were only a few metres to brake and rub off speed, so the impact must've been at very high speed. The fact that Hailwood survived at all seems to me to indicate that by any standard, the M23 chassis was quite strong. I have a photo somewhere of Hunt's M26 after the Canada 1977 misunderstanding with team-mate Mass - it pretty graphically illustrates how Hunt was saved from serious injury by the honeycomb sandwich chassis panels. I'll scan and post it when I recall where I have it.


Marc,

Technical Art was (is?) primarily the work of German Norbert Schäfer - another artist who was one of my early favourites and source of inspiration. I've mostly seen German cars from Schäfer's hand, so I'm a bit surprised to see an M26 from him, and in the original (prettier, IMO) version without the nose oil cooler. I suspect it may originally have been published in a German publication like Rallye Racing or German Sport Auto. Was it actually ever raced in that configuration? ISTR that by the 1977 racing season the front oil cooler had appeared.


Tony,

Thanks for sharing the fascinating in-build photos - just the sort of thing that REALLY catches my attention! It looks to me like the M26 had a NACA air inlet in the floor - perhaps to cool Master James' privates? Those 1970s steel sheet and tube fabrications were works of art, IMO - another dying skill. Nowadays it's mostly all machined or mould-tooled directly from the 3D CAD models. Working out complex fabrications in 2D on the drawing board and then having real craftsmen turn the thoughts into metal just has this something to it.

I can only echo your sentiment concerning the almost complete standardization of single seater architecture (including those IMO hideous raised noses) over the last decade and a half - makes me proud of my Formula Ford pull rod suspension...

Had I been born earlier, who knows what we could have accomplished together in the field of technical illustration (though I fail to see what my contribution would have been...). With the massive encouragment you're giving me, I will definitely be producing more racing car cutaways in the future (old cars and my own stuff) - when I find the time. I will probably need to invest in a collection of ellipse templates - and perhaps in a trip to the UK to pay you a visit... I think I'll accept that "my style" is pencil and that by sticking with it, I can improve it, even my free-hand ellipses...

#699 Tony Matthews

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 00:14

Originally posted by Bonde
...I think that we'd better find, or open, a more appropriate thread regarding the M23 and M26 chassis details,


I've been wondering whether I should delete most of my chassis photos, I got a bit carried away and I don't think they belong here. I'll sleep on it and tackle it tomorrow morning.

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#700 PeterElleray

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 00:19

looks like one of us should be opening an m23/m26 thread tomorrow then...

rgds

peter