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The cutaway drawing and its artists


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#8551 macoran

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 19:30

Marc,
Amazing to be seeing a new James Allington piece ...

and there are still many out there
bless my sister who is thumbing through loads of my old magazines !!
thanks Jeannette for your efforts !

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#8552 Tony Matthews

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 21:06

How did these projects all pan out, Tony, and have you still got them?

Seeing that photo was a bit of a shock. The Vincent was sold, not at a vast profit, mainly because a substantial engine re-build cost a lot. I have twice been take advantage of by specialist repair shops, once on my Lotus Cortina, and then the Vincent. "Please give me a quote before you start..." " Mr. Matthews? Your Vincent/Twincam is ready! " "How much?!" I suppose they realise that Joe Blow is going to baulk at a quote, but will inevitably pay up just to get his goods back. The Bubble went a few years ago, I was running out of space and realised that I had too much to do. I regret not finishing it as a Bubble car is the best cure for the blues yet invented. Face-ache is the main reason for stopping, as the ear-to-ear grin that starts as soon as you sit in one gets really painfull after an hour's driving.

The GN... Well, I still have all the parts that I've had for decades, bar a spare back axle, rear radius arms, their mounting brackets and a bevel box that I 'donated' to someone else' project, but I don't know what is going to happen. I still want to build it, but set-back after set-back doesn't help. I was about to start work on the chassis last year, as I was sharing a very large, if cluttered, barn, but no sooner had I made the decision then the barn was 'let go', and I had to move to a much smaller unit - so small that with all my gear in it there is no room for the GN! My current garage is 63 years old, made of asbestos sheet and held together by the biggest ivy plant outside the Cambridge Ivy Museum and Propagation Farm, the small birds that live in it have been reliably estimated to weigh, in total, 750kg. So, the plan is to demolish that, build a new garage, move my stuff into it and have enough space to build the GN. We'll see... When finished, the GN should look like my avatar.

#8553 JoeKane

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 23:12

So, the plan is to demolish that, build a new garage, move my stuff into it and have enough space to build the GN. We'll see...

Maybe we should declare a slow race to see who gets the new garage built first, you or I...
Winner gets a cigar prize put up by Tony Matthews, plus a pipe prize put up by Karabas. ;)

I do want to see that GN completed. If I get my garage built first you will be welcome to use a bay for your GN project.

Edited to include GN comments.

Edited by JoeKane, 29 March 2011 - 23:15.


#8554 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 23:31

When finished, the GN should look like my avatar.

Thanks Tony. I'm looking forward to seeing it in the flesh one day.

#8555 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 00:49

I have told you that I had some more of the Haynes covers scanned and just needed to get cleaned up, so I thought I would clear them out here. Maybe the general classification of the subjects has something to do with my lack of enthusiasm, as they might all fit under the LSB category (Little ShitBoxes).
You will see what I mean ...
We start with the infamous Ford Pinto from 1980. This was the car that had the allegedly exploding fuel tank that was really the result of getting hit in the rear by much heavier vehicles ... generally, anything else on the road. I was actually recruited to testify for a lawsuit on this deal, and the car had been re-welded together three other times from rear-end crashes. I was surprised that it held the rear axle in the thing. A few questions informed me that the driver had pulled out in front of other vehicles a couple of previous times, and the thing hadn't firebombed itself ... it finally did. I refused to have anything to do with it, and said that, if I was called, I would have a bit to say in Ford's favor, not the pathetic budding concert pianist whose career had been reduced by this tragic accident (caused by his own mother, of course).
Ah, well ... on to the culprit ...
Tom West

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#8556 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 00:51

Our next item is going to be Terry Davey's Honda Civic, dated 1986. I think I posted a couple of other versions of this earlier, so it is interesting to compare the design progression.
Tom West

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#8557 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 00:55

We go to the slightly larger Honda Prelude of 1980. These things are all over the place here yet, being in Southern California, so I would think that there are a lot of copies of that Terry Davey cover around on the Haynes Manual. Again, check the features against the Civic.
Tom West

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#8558 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:02

The next in our thematic series is the little Mazda GLL of 1978. Terry Davey ... Haynes Cover ... blah, blah.
Tom West

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Sorry, running out of ways to say this is a cutaway of X by Terry Davey ...

#8559 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:05

This is the only one in this string that departs the LSB category, although I don't exactly think of this as a luxury ride either ... the Range Rover from 1980. I would guess that this manual would have been developed for the international market, as you certainly see few of them over here.
Tom West

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#8560 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:14

The next illustration from Terry Davey was actually shown on the covers of two different Haynes Manuals, the 1978 Talbot Alpine and the 1982 Talbot Rapier. I am not familiar with it enough to know if that is correct or if I picked up a wrong label. The illustrations are the same down to the SKU number that is included.
Tom West

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#8561 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:17

This is one for Mr. Matthews, as he said he had a thing for the Victor ...
This, unfortunately, is the Vauxhall Victor, which may not be nearly as interesting as the V-Bomber. I just pulled an unsigned illustration of that this afternoon that will be included in a group of aircraft to come.
This Victor is shown as the 1978 model, as signed by Terry Davey for the Haynes Manual cover. Sorry for being so repetitive ...
Tom West

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#8562 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:18

This Terry Davey illustration seems like a bit older style, but I show it as the 1979 year of the Vauxhall Viva. Not sure what was going on with the illustration style.
Tom West

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#8563 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:22

We will end this evening's walk down LSB Lane with the uber-econo Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel out of 1979. Seems like that is a bit of gilding the lilly by going after more mileage on this econo-box, but there are folks who are obsessed with the mileage. My obsession tends in other directions ...
Tom West


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#8564 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:26

and there are still many out there
bless my sister who is thumbing through loads of my old magazines !!
thanks Jeannette for your efforts !



Having already experienced your sister's hospitality (not firsthand, so don't get worried), I must express my appreciation of her efforts. Can't say I would trust my sister to figure out what any of this stuff is to get her to do this kind of thing.
And, if that sounds a bit off-color regarding Marc's sister, it isn't in any way indicating anything illicit happening. Must be a real angel to be going through all those old magazines to find this strange stuff for a brother who is obsessed with a weird art hobby. Guess all of our sisters have one of those in the family ...
Please add my heartfelt thanks to your comments.
Tom West

#8565 rwstevens59

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 18:04

Here is the sum total of books from my library dedicated to technical illustration. Anyone know of anything better or different. These are all from the manual era from 1948 to 1968.


This one just recieved in the mail yesterday from the UK. Good, but all about constructing one, two and three point perspective grid underlays. Expected a bit more, oh well.

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By rwstevens59 at 2011-03-30

All isometric with seven pages dedicated to perspective. More houses and railroad tracks. :mad:

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By rwstevens59 at 2011-03-30

Probably the best of the lot, but again focusing primarily on isometric. It does include the only information I have on the use of the sphere and ellipse as a measuring device, but again primarily for oblique planes in isometric. Nineteen pages on perspective, but again a lot about constructing perspective grid underlays and little else.

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By rwstevens59 at 2011-03-30

Great aircraft cutaways but again produced by measured perspective using projection of the plan view, as in architectural perspective, or the use of a special drawing board developed by Douglas Aircraft.

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By rwstevens59 at 2011-03-30

Pretty much the same as the above.

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By rwstevens59 at 2011-03-30

None have been of any great value in unraveling how Tony Matthews or ??? (can't find the post on using the sphere and ellipses for generating an aircraft from side view to perspective, which means I forgot the posters name :confused: ) work with the ellipse and sphere to locate the proper view or ellipse angle.

I know Tom West will be back saying, 'come on Ralph just draw it', I have been working at it Tom I promise. Old draftsman are hard to break. :)

Ralph

Edited by rwstevens59, 30 March 2011 - 18:17.


#8566 Allan Lupton

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 18:17

Ah, de Havilland strikes again - Peter Manktelow was another of our Tech Pubs luminaries at Hatfield. :D

#8567 IrishMariner

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 18:28

...or ??? (can't find the post on using the sphere and ellipses for generating an aircraft from side view to perspective, which means I forgot the posters name :confused: ) work with the ellipse and sphere to locate the proper view or ellipse angle....

Ralph


You probably mean Tim Hall. Longtime staff member at Flight International.....currently a large part of Flightline Arts. Writer of some of Aeroplane's "Kings Of Cutaways" series.



#8568 bradbury west

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 18:47

Ah, de Havilland strikes again - Peter Manktelow was another of our Tech Pubs luminaries at Hatfield. :D


Not the most frequently encountered surname, so was Peter related to John of that ilk, as in JDM Engines, as he was from that area IIRC?
Roger Lund


#8569 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 19:23

Here is the sum total of books from my library dedicated to technical illustration. Anyone know of anything better or different. These are all from the manual era from 1948 to 1968.


None have been of any great value in unraveling how Tony Matthews or ??? (can't find the post on using the sphere and ellipses for generating an aircraft from side view to perspective, which means I forgot the posters name :confused: ) work with the ellipse and sphere to locate the proper view or ellipse angle.

I know Tom West will be back saying, 'come on Ralph just draw it', I have been working at it Tom I promise. Old draftsman are hard to break. :)

Ralph


Ralph,
You are discovering the secret to how these guys actually do this ... it's called talent. If you have the vision to do this type of thing, it is, first, very unusual, and second, very clear. I am still saying to do this from photographs and don't worry about the complete creation of the drawing. If you get the photos done correctly, all those vanishing points get defined. Most of those lessons tend to be about surface drawing, not filling in the insides, so you are just taking the basics of the outside and applying them on an individual basis on the innards.
I am only playing Mr. Nike (Just Do It) because you have to just draw one. Copy something .. just don't claim it as your own. it is just a practice thing, and it will take that fear away. I did this when I was 16 because I wanted to draw and design cars, as complete process, not just the body or a particular part of it, but the whole thing. I ended up doing Modelkit design and development and later diecast cars, which allowed me to design everything on the project. Of course it is mirroring reality, but it is a rare skill, except for those here who do the cutaways. That is the equivalent in 2D, which is why this stuff I do is very similar.
It is also why I say to take that drafting background, which is all I ever had, and start working with that skillset, which is extensive. Don't worry about the actual drawing and use a crutch (photographic) until you can figure out exactly what else you want to do. I have done something like 80 or so of these things and, while they are not near the work of a Tony Matthews, still look fairly decent and are fairly satisfying.
If you are looking to do this for your own satisfaction, don't start by making every step of the way difficult ... it can be sort of a buzz kill.
I hope this is being encouraging, not pushy ... guess living in New York does that to one after a while (5 years back in the 70s).
Relax and have a good time with it, you have quite a group here that will be behind your efforts all the way.
Tom West

#8570 Karabas

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 19:56

Tom, IrishMariner, Motocar, tbolt - thank you very much for the wonderful illustrations devoted to aviation.

Another great master, who paid a lot of time to aviation cutaway art - Roy Cross

de Havilland/Hawker-Siddeley 4B Comet (Allan Lupton correction)
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Gloster Meteor F MK 8
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P-51 Mustang
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Bristol Brigand T.F. Mk. 1
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Mikoyan MiG 15
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FW 190
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Bf 109F1
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P-40 Tomahawk IIB
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Commonwealth CA-12 Boomerang
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Spitfire LFR Mark XIVE
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Fairey Firefly F.R. Mk.1
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Edited by Karabas, 30 March 2011 - 20:49.


#8571 IrishMariner

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 20:07

Another great master, who paid a lot of time to aviation cutaway art - Roy Cross

BAC Comet
Gloster Meteor F MK 8
P-51 Mustang
Bristol Brigand T.F. Mk. 1
Mikoyan MiG 15
FW 190
Bf 109F1
P-40 Tomahawk IIB
Commonwealth CA-12 Boomerang
Spitfire LFR Mark XIVE
Fairey Firefly F.R. Mk.1


Thank you so much for posting these. There's a couple of my favourite airplanes in there (Comet, FW-190 and Bf-109).

Lovely artwork.

May I ask where they came from? I've heard of Roy Cross but was unaware of his cutaway work.

Edited by IrishMariner, 30 March 2011 - 20:08.


#8572 Allan Lupton

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 20:17

Tom, IrishMariner, Motocar, tbolt - thank you very much for the wonderful illustrations devoted to aviation.

Another great master, who paid a lot of time to aviation cutaway art - Roy Cross

BAC Comet
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Wots with BAC, then?
It's a de Havilland/Hawker-Siddeley Comet 4B of BEA (so not even B[O]AC)

#8573 Karabas

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 20:23

Wots with BAC, then?
It's a de Havilland/Hawker-Siddeley Comet 4B of BEA (so not even B[O]AC)


Yes, yes, yes!!!

My mistake, shame on me :cry:
Thank you very much, Allan, that fix my stupid error...

Edited by Karabas, 30 March 2011 - 20:30.


#8574 Karabas

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 20:27

Thank you so much for posting these. There's a couple of my favourite airplanes in there (Comet, FW-190 and Bf-109).

Lovely artwork.

May I ask where they came from? I've heard of Roy Cross but was unaware of his cutaway work.


Two books:

"Celebration of Flight The Art of Roy Cross"
# Publisher: The Crowood Press (October 11, 2002)
# ISBN-10: 1840373261
# ISBN-13: 978-1840373264
and
"The Vintage Years of Airfix Box Art"
# Publisher: Crowood Press (August 1, 2009)
# ISBN-10: 9781847970763
# ISBN-13: 978-1847970763
# ASIN: 1847970761

#8575 rwstevens59

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 21:19

Ralph,
...
I hope this is being encouraging, not pushy ... guess living in New York does that to one after a while (5 years back in the 70s).
Relax and have a good time with it, you have quite a group here that will be behind your efforts all the way.
Tom West


I am very appreciative of your encouragement and your suggestions. I'm doing this for two reasons I guess. One, I have always been nagged by the limitations of isometric drawing and have always had an interest in, but never the time for, learning more about perspective techniques to improve my overall drawing skill. Two, it is mainly for pleasure but I would like to apply it more in my daily work in explaining blueprints to the non-technically minded. I have a situation right now in which I am trying to explain why tolerance stack up is creating a problem with a mechanism. The drawing must be built up from the assembly prints i.e. no photographs. A picture is worth a thousand words as they say and I would like to make better drawings. Drawing cars, airplanes and other vehicles is just a passion thing, I love them and it would be for me only as I have no aspirations to make this a commercial thing. If I did, I would be honing my computer skills like so many others.

By the way, I had a look at your facebook page and that reunion art work is, ahem, exquisite. I am slowly reading through all of the posts, albeit selectively, and I am somewhere in the 240 range EDIT: Make that the 140 range. I think that is where you mentioned your page.

Oh, and another bad thing I have been a New York state resident my entire life. There is hope as it was not spent in the city.

One last thing. When you study Tony Matthews layout drawings, which actually I enjoy as much if not more than the finished painting, you can see he is using certain sphere and ellipse measurement techniques which I was never taught. And OK I'll admit it, it bugs me that I haven't figured it out yet. Uh, that's the draftsman talking I guess.

Thanks, as always, for your input,

Ralph

Edited by rwstevens59, 30 March 2011 - 22:24.


#8576 TWest

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 21:42

Thank you so much for posting these. There's a couple of my favourite airplanes in there (Comet, FW-190 and Bf-109).

Lovely artwork.

May I ask where they came from? I've heard of Roy Cross but was unaware of his cutaway work.


IM,
There was a book by Roy Cross published a while ago, but it was more about his Airfix art days, as he was really much better known for that aspect of his art. He was the main artist for Airfix covers for many years. I had seen some of his cutaways, but am not really sure where most of them were published.
And, I kept putting off buying that book and it is now off the shelves, of course ...
Tom West

#8577 Tony Matthews

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 23:01

One last thing. When you study Tony Matthews layout drawings, which actually I enjoy as much if not more than the finished painting, you can see he is using certain sphere and ellipse measurement techniques which I was never taught. And OK I'll admit it, it bugs me that I haven't figured it out yet. Uh, that's the draftsman talking I guess.
Ralph

I dunno, I look at this thread when I get in from work, note one or two posts, I have a glass of wine and too much to eat, fall asleep in front of the haunted fishtank and while I dream fitfully of studwork and cement board all this happens!

Ralph, Tom W is right, forget the construction work for a while, just draw something. Your earlier sketches, especially the part where you have shown a lever with four-way movement and the crossed arrows over it show that you have the necessary talent. You are fretting needlessly about the construction. My first cutaway was done without knowing how to draw an ellipse, it was done in feverish excitment after I had been introduced to James Allington, and I was desperate to finish it and show it to him. I have searched for it over the years, a small piece of card with a Mills 75 diesel engine, cut away and shaded in pencil, with Jim's little sketch showing the correct ellipse shape, major and minor axes.

Most of my car cutaways were done without any construction apart from the vanishing points, and these were 'reverse engineered' from a photograph of the complete car, or where conjured out of thin air if I drew the car from scratch. One or two have a small sphere and ellipses somewhere when I wasn't happy with eye-balling an ellipse, when I had to find an ellipse in an area of the drawing where it either wasn't intuitive what the angle should be (within 10° or so), or I just wanted to check that I was right. You can't use photographs slavishly, as the lens distorts perspective, or rather, shows perpective differently, and unless the camera was so far from the subject that the vanishing points are out near the Oort Cloud, there will be an element of difference to what you would draw.

When I can summon up the energy to draw a sequence showing the sphere and it's ellipses I will do it - I sketched one in my work note-book, but it's very rough - because it is a help to know, not because it is of vital import. Jim Allington never used the system, everything was done by eye... well, plus a hand to hold the pen.

#8578 rwstevens59

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 00:09

I dunno, I look at this thread when I get in from work, note one or two posts, I have a glass of wine and too much to eat, fall asleep in front of the haunted fishtank and while I dream fitfully of studwork and cement board all this happens!

When I can summon up the energy to draw a sequence showing the sphere and it's ellipses I will do it - I sketched one in my work note-book, but it's very rough - because it is a help to know, not because it is of vital import. Jim Allington never used the system, everything was done by eye... well, plus a hand to hold the pen.



Tony,

The technique and method demon strikes again. :confused: Must have been caused by all those technical drafting professors holding my vellum up to the window and critiquing my line weights, lettering and the intensity of my construction lines that caused all this. :drunk:

Yep, just fear of that old uncontrolled pencil I guess. Just have to press on and improve my freehand.

I do have a question from one of your earlier posts where you state that up until the 500 I engine cutaway you worked from the inside out which seems logical to me. Make a start with the crank centerline and build out. But on the 500 I and, I believe the rest of the engine cutaways you worked from the outside in. Why the change? It would seem more difficult to me. But then again, what do I know. :)



Ralph

#8579 TWest

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 00:21

I am very appreciative of your encouragement and your suggestions. I'm doing this for two reasons I guess. One, I have always been nagged by the limitations of isometric drawing and have always had an interest in, but never the time for, learning more about perspective techniques to improve my overall drawing skill. Two, it is mainly for pleasure but I would like to apply it more in my daily work in explaining blueprints to the non-technically minded. I have a situation right now in which I am trying to explain why tolerance stack up is creating a problem with a mechanism. The drawing must be built up from the assembly prints i.e. no photographs. A picture is worth a thousand words as they say and I would like to make better drawings. Drawing cars, airplanes and other vehicles is just a passion thing, I love them and it would be for me only as I have no aspirations to make this a commercial thing. If I did, I would be honing my computer skills like so many others.

By the way, I had a look at your facebook page and that reunion art work is, ahem, exquisite. I am slowly reading through all of the posts, albeit selectively, and I am somewhere in the 240 range EDIT: Make that the 140 range. I think that is where you mentioned your page.

Oh, and another bad thing I have been a New York state resident my entire life. There is hope as it was not spent in the city.

One last thing. When you study Tony Matthews layout drawings, which actually I enjoy as much if not more than the finished painting, you can see he is using certain sphere and ellipse measurement techniques which I was never taught. And OK I'll admit it, it bugs me that I haven't figured it out yet. Uh, that's the draftsman talking I guess.

Thanks, as always, for your input,

Ralph



Ralph,
If you are doing this for work, to be able to do explanatory drawings for toolmakers, patternmakers, etc., they would relate better to the standard Isometric view, which relates back more to the dimensioned drawings. A perspective drawing can be figured out, I am sure, but I don't think that anyone does this stuff by dimensions. You create maybe a side view on one side of your perspective box, then draw back from it into the third dimension, which gives the shape. Again, if it looks right, it is right. I think that most of the material that we are seeing was probably done visually, not mathematically. Very different skill.
If you are looking at that Facebook stuff (assuming you were talking about my Profile) are you speaking of the Photo Albums? Yeah, there is a lot of stuff in there that could be amusing if you are interested in drag racing and associated subjects. I even have a F1 photo album of things from a couple of US Grand Prix.
I am trying not to hold that New York thing against you, but it would be much tougher if you had said you were from the City.
I think you are trying too hard with the techniques. You end up with a set of ellipse guides that are broken into sets at 5° increments. Usually, you can get three different sets from 5° to 80°, up to 2-inch, 2-inch to 4-inch, and 4-inch to 12-inch major radius. There are also handy small ellipse guides that are all of them up to 1/2-inch on one. Not sure who really handles them any more, but I know that I have to have the largest collection of these things in Southern California if you throw in the Ships Curves, French Curves and the rest. I have to use them for anything where a line is over maybe 1/4 inch section so it keeps the lines controlled.
Told you that I am not that great an artist. Watching these pics of guys doing this "freehand," as I know used to be done, just blows me away. I think you are being intimidated a bit by that process.
There are many ways to skin a cat in this circumstance, and starting with one to copy won't hurt. Look at it as your elementary education.
Tom West

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#8580 rwstevens59

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 00:41

Ralph,
If you are doing this for work, to be able to do explanatory drawings for toolmakers, patternmakers, etc., they would relate better to the standard Isometric view, which relates back more to the dimensioned drawings. A perspective drawing can be figured out, I am sure, but I don't think that anyone does this stuff by dimensions. You create maybe a side view on one side of your perspective box, then draw back from it into the third dimension, which gives the shape. Again, if it looks right, it is right. I think that most of the material that we are seeing was probably done visually, not mathematically. Very different skill.
If you are looking at that Facebook stuff (assuming you were talking about my Profile) are you speaking of the Photo Albums? Yeah, there is a lot of stuff in there that could be amusing if you are interested in drag racing and associated subjects. I even have a F1 photo album of things from a couple of US Grand Prix.
I am trying not to hold that New York thing against you, but it would be much tougher if you had said you were from the City.
I think you are trying too hard with the techniques. You end up with a set of ellipse guides that are broken into sets at 5° increments. Usually, you can get three different sets from 5° to 80°, up to 2-inch, 2-inch to 4-inch, and 4-inch to 12-inch major radius. There are also handy small ellipse guides that are all of them up to 1/2-inch on one. Not sure who really handles them any more, but I know that I have to have the largest collection of these things in Southern California if you throw in the Ships Curves, French Curves and the rest. I have to use them for anything where a line is over maybe 1/4 inch section so it keeps the lines controlled.
Told you that I am not that great an artist. Watching these pics of guys doing this "freehand," as I know used to be done, just blows me away. I think you are being intimidated a bit by that process.
There are many ways to skin a cat in this circumstance, and starting with one to copy won't hurt. Look at it as your elementary education.
Tom West


Tom,

Yes, I was speaking of your facebook photo albums. I love the drags! The Nationals at Englishtown are a semi-regular stop on my busy racing schedule. Had a chance to watch the entire day of finals quite a number of years back from just behind the tree courtesy of my then employer Texaco R&D. WOW! A whole new perspective on the true path of fuel funny car down the quarter. I was making specific reference to the album of all of the nicely posed young ladies. :eek:

Can't help the NY thing. :wave:

I have all the drafting tools you mention except for the really large ellipse guides. They are still available in the U.S. new from Timely Templates. Many can be found new old stock on eBay as well.

The drawings for work are for maintenance department managers who manage people and are, IMHO, technically challenged. Thus the need for some really expressive line work.

I am in the process of doing several tracings of simple mechanisms as a starter.

Ralph

Edited by rwstevens59, 31 March 2011 - 00:48.


#8581 TWest

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:46

Tom,

Yes, I was speaking of your facebook photo albums. I love the drags! The Nationals at Englishtown are a semi-regular stop on my busy racing schedule. Had a chance to watch the entire day of finals quite a number of years back from just behind the tree courtesy of my then employer Texaco R&D. WOW! A whole new perspective on the true path of fuel funny car down the quarter. I was making specific reference to the album of all of the nicely posed young ladies. :eek:

Can't help the NY thing. :wave:

I have all the drafting tools you mention except for the really large ellipse guides. They are still available in the U.S. new from Timely Templates. Many can be found new old stock on eBay as well.

The drawings for work are for maintenance department managers who manage people and are, IMHO, technically challenged. Thus the need for some really expressive line work.

I am in the process of doing several tracings of simple mechanisms as a starter.

Ralph


Ralph,
Considering the fact that I lived on Long Island for five years when I got into the modelkit business with Aurora, out in West Hempstead, Englishtown was a regular haunt. If you look in those FB Albums, you will see some photos from that track, as well as New York National. Part of the reason that I began, and ended up sticking with the drag racing was that I had moved out to Los Angeles around that time and was able to jump right into the middle of this stuff without a problem, both for photos and to get associated with the teams to do my cutaways. I think that might be a good place for you to start if you know someone who has a car, maybe an Altered, a dragster or something like that. The bodies can be removed and you can sort of strip it to its essentials the create your own drawing. Get your son to help, assuming he has a tripod and shoot base pictures, then shoot the hell out of it for details. Unless you can have the car sitting in your "studio," that is the easiest way to preserve information for this kind of thing. With some fixed position shots, you can pretty much copy the lines and build a drawing. I, personally, start on the outside and move forward like a deli meat slicer (New York reference). Start with the first things you see, generally a body, then just move back through the illustration until you show all the levels of the subject that you want.
You describe your drawings for the maintenance guys at your work, which reminds me of workorders that we used to come up with for the millwrights at the GM plant back in the 60s-70s. I was in Industrial and Methods Engineering, so we would get all the fixtures, shelves and miscellaneous little production aids installed along the assembly line with drawings and instructions very similar to what you showed. Each of them would end with the closing line, "BTF/PTM"
Which was our acronym for "Beat to Fit/Paint to Match." Familiar with the process ...
Tom West

#8582 rwstevens59

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:45

...
You describe your drawings for the maintenance guys at your work, which reminds me of workorders that we used to come up with for the millwrights at the GM plant back in the 60s-70s. I was in Industrial and Methods Engineering, so we would get all the fixtures, shelves and miscellaneous little production aids installed along the assembly line with drawings and instructions very similar to what you showed. Each of them would end with the closing line, "BTF/PTM"
Which was our acronym for "Beat to Fit/Paint to Match." Familiar with the process ...
Tom West


Tom,

BTM/FTF/PTM we add the middle term FTF 'File to Finish'. Yes I'm very familiar with the term. :rotfl: And ain't it the truth.

Ralph


#8583 TWest

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 18:24

Tom,

BTM/FTF/PTM we add the middle term FTF 'File to Finish'. Yes I'm very familiar with the term. :rotfl: And ain't it the truth.

Ralph


Well, this was a GM assembly plant .. they were much less worried about fit and finish ... :)
Back around 1970, you know.
German cars were only for elitists or weirdo poor volk and hippies.
Japanese cars were for traitors.
English cars were for snobs.
We were kings of the World, and this was only for the plant anyway ...
Tom West

#8584 tbolt

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 18:52

A couple of web finds, cannot remember where this one is from, but there are two other Mills by David Ray and Barre Funnell here.

http://www.norfolkmi...-machinery.html

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One of HMS Devastation's gun turrets

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There is a cutaway of the ship, but not as detailed as this

http://cityofart.net/bship/devast.htm





#8585 rwstevens59

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 21:46

Well, this was a GM assembly plant .. they were much less worried about fit and finish ... :)
Back around 1970, you know.
German cars were only for elitists or weirdo poor volk and hippies.
Japanese cars were for traitors.
English cars were for snobs.
We were kings of the World, and this was only for the plant anyway ...
Tom West


Tom West,

Oh, I remember the '70's era GM cars well. Second car was a 1972 Cutlass S that I worked at with scrounged parts to make it 'look' like a 442. Didn't want to be embarrassed at those street drag meets you know.

First car was a 1963 VW Bug convertible I started resurrecting from the dead when I was fourteen. Took my drivers test in that car when I was 16. All the examiner kept asking was, 'did you make all those ribs yourself'. I had to remake all of the oak ribs that had rotted out of the convertible top and had no headliner.

1975 to 1978 are the years GM experimented with the water base lacquer top coat paint, I think. The paint would be falling off the car in three years or less. Had to completely strip and repaint my Dads 1977 Olds 88. Man that was a lot of sheet metal area to cover. Would body two cars today.

Just some random reflections of a 50 something.

Ralph


#8586 TWest

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 22:31

Tom West,

Oh, I remember the '70's era GM cars well. Second car was a 1972 Cutlass S that I worked at with scrounged parts to make it 'look' like a 442. Didn't want to be embarrassed at those street drag meets you know.

First car was a 1963 VW Bug convertible I started resurrecting from the dead when I was fourteen. Took my drivers test in that car when I was 16. All the examiner kept asking was, 'did you make all those ribs yourself'. I had to remake all of the oak ribs that had rotted out of the convertible top and had no headliner.

1975 to 1978 are the years GM experimented with the water base lacquer top coat paint, I think. The paint would be falling off the car in three years or less. Had to completely strip and repaint my Dads 1977 Olds 88. Man that was a lot of sheet metal area to cover. Would body two cars today.

Just some random reflections of a 50 something.

Ralph


I think a lot of your problems also had to do with the road conditions back there ... if you had anything with relatively limited ground clearance, the roads would clean everything off the bottom of the car. I had my '72 GTO back there ... drove it onto Long Island when I moved there, and drove it off when I moved to Michigan. In between, I tried to go to Englishtown one time, and it cleaned my transmission pan off on the Belt Parkway through Brooklyn.
Refinished it twice during the five years ...
Tom West

#8587 rwstevens59

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 00:32

...No two jobs are the same.
The appearance of a finished drawing in no way reflects the effort that has gone into it. An apparently simple drawing, because of the circumstances may have required much more skill and effort to produce than many a more impressive one. In every case though, when the drawing is finished and cleaned up and the pencil rubbed off, one wonders what took so long!
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Tim,

First let me apologize for not remembering your name in a recent post I made. I looked back and at first could not find this post.

This method has been very helpful and as you stated pretty easy to apply. However, I have encountered one problem which will probably be overcome only with experience. It is the initial set up of the first three ellipses for the x, y and z axis as shown in diagram 2 of your instructions. The selection sets up your view and that I am finding a bit difficult, one axis OK, say the x axis along the length of the fuselage. Now I am of the opinion at the moment that this initial selection should then influence the selection of the y and z axis ellipses. Am I correct in this assumption? All axes are then defined by the ellipse minor axis for that plane.

The work displayed on your website is amazing.

Thanks again for your help,

Ralph

Edited by rwstevens59, 01 April 2011 - 00:34.


#8588 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 06:03

It is the initial set up of the first three ellipses for the x, y and z axis as shown in diagram 2 of your instructions.

The sphere, Ralph, the fabled sphere!

#8589 alansart

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 08:03

Tim,

First let me apologize for not remembering your name in a recent post I made. I looked back and at first could not find this post.

This method has been very helpful and as you stated pretty easy to apply. However, I have encountered one problem which will probably be overcome only with experience. It is the initial set up of the first three ellipses for the x, y and z axis as shown in diagram 2 of your instructions. The selection sets up your view and that I am finding a bit difficult, one axis OK, say the x axis along the length of the fuselage. Now I am of the opinion at the moment that this initial selection should then influence the selection of the y and z axis ellipses. Am I correct in this assumption? All axes are then defined by the ellipse minor axis for that plane.

The work displayed on your website is amazing.

Thanks again for your help,

Ralph


Ralph,

This how I've always done it (and still do even on the computer) in 2 point perspective (and at a bit of an acute angle).

Put in my vanishing points and draw my sphere where axis A, B & C dissect. Draw an ellipse, inside the sphere on Axis A. You can check the ellipse is correct by drawing 2 vertical lines. The points where they touch the outside of the ellipse should align with Axis C.

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Draw an ellipse on Axis B. The ellipse should dissect the first ellipse on Axis C.

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Draw an ellipse on Axis C. The ellipse should dissect the others as shown.

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All other ellipses and dimensions can be projected from this.

Posted Image

Cheers,

Alan












#8590 rwstevens59

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 13:15

Ralph,

This how I've always done it (and still do even on the computer) in 2 point perspective (and at a bit of an acute angle).

Put in my vanishing points and draw my sphere where axis A, B & C dissect. Draw an ellipse, inside the sphere on Axis A. You can check the ellipse is correct by drawing 2 vertical lines. The points where they touch the outside of the ellipse should align with Axis C.

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Draw an ellipse on Axis B. The ellipse should dissect the first ellipse on Axis C.

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Draw an ellipse on Axis C. The ellipse should dissect the others as shown.

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All other ellipses and dimensions can be projected from this.

Posted Image

Cheers,

Alan


Alan,

Thank you for taking out the time to make up the drawings and get the starting point through this thick skull of mine. As I suspected but was not clear about in reading Tim's explanation, you need the axes first, regardless of how they are obtained, and then you can start to work with the ellipses.

I feel better now. And so will everyone else, as I will take a break from method and just keep drawing as per Tom West and Tony Matthews suggestions.

Thanks Again,

Ralph


#8591 smarjoram

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 13:16

I thought that was jolly useful too - thanks Alan.

#8592 rwstevens59

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 14:24

The sphere, Ralph, the fabled sphere!


Yes, that magical sphere that only those who have been in the illustration work place seem to know anything about. Although I'm sure it is the same with tool and model making, a lot of setup, machining and measurement techniques we take for granted were learned on the job and not recorded anywhere.

I think I have boiled down my basic problem to selecting the vanishing points out of thin air for a drawing made solely from assembly prints and coupled with that how near or far and at what angle I am viewing the object. This brings us back to your suggestion to draw from actual parts you can position at will and draw what you see. Training your eye, so to speak, to pick good view points instinctively.

It is all coming together albeit slowly.


#8593 alansart

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 14:52

I think I have boiled down my basic problem to selecting the vanishing points out of thin air for a drawing made solely from assembly prints and coupled with that how near or far and at what angle I am viewing the object. This brings us back to your suggestion to draw from actual parts you can position at will and draw what you see. Training your eye, so to speak, to pick good view points instinctively.


Drawing from actual parts is obviously easier although it still takes the odd photograph to work out the correct vanishing points.

Working from drawings is a bit more difficult. I'd probably do some rough sketches first and work it from that. There were several occasions were the angle was just wrong and I had to bin it all and start again - generally that happened when there was a tight deadline!


#8594 rwstevens59

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 15:34

Drawing from actual parts is obviously easier although it still takes the odd photograph to work out the correct vanishing points.

Working from drawings is a bit more difficult. I'd probably do some rough sketches first and work it from that. There were several occasions were the angle was just wrong and I had to bin it all and start again - generally that happened when there was a tight deadline!


Ah yes, Mr. Murphy and his law apply to all fields. And he always seems to show up when the pressure is on. Thank you again Alan and I hope you can sustain your illustration business. It seems with the dumbing down of American society the more of the general public I talk to have no interest at all in discovering how things work. They honestly just don't care. It is just supposed to work and I don't care how. It's a shame really, and a little scary.

Ralph


#8595 TWest

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 18:55

Alan,

Thank you for taking out the time to make up the drawings and get the starting point through this thick skull of mine. As I suspected but was not clear about in reading Tim's explanation, you need the axes first, regardless of how they are obtained, and then you can start to work with the ellipses.

I feel better now. And so will everyone else, as I will take a break from method and just keep drawing as per Tom West and Tony Matthews suggestions.

Thanks Again,

Ralph



Ralph,
I was just going to suggest that you pick up a full set of those Ellipse guides. They will get you pretty close with the 5° increments for any of the detail work, and you can make adjustments on much larger things (wheels and tires) with the Curves if you need to. Glad you feel better knowing what this is, but things will go incredibly much faster just sighting it, coming up with a front and rear wheel ellipse angle, and adjusting for intermediate areas between the wheelcenters, and for the distance back through the car (or whatever). As has been said, if it looks right, nobody is going to criticize, or even realize that it isn't the perfect ellipse.
You worry too much ...
Tom West

#8596 rwstevens59

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 00:49

Ralph,
...
You worry too much ...
Tom West


Tom,

You are correct sir! Recognizing this problem is half way to a cure..........right.

It has been a lifelong curse passed down from my father I think. If I come across some technical subject or problem, be it a system, a machining technique, mathematical problem whatever I am like a dog with a bone until I understand it. I will read, take it apart, ask questions, search the internet until I am satisfied I have come to grips with the subject.

Time to take my medication now.

Ralph


#8597 IrishMariner

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 07:01

A couple of Russian aircraft from the June 1958 issue of the RAF's 'Flying Review'

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#8598 Karabas

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 12:56

A couple of Russian aircraft from the June 1958 issue of the RAF's 'Flying Review'


Thank you very much. I sent you a PM. Hope, it will be interesting for you. :wave:

#8599 TWest

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 00:42

This has seemed to now be fairly evenly split between aviation and automotive work .. with ellipse process thrown in. Going to tip the scales a bit more aero with a couple of pieces for your weekend. These are always interesting to me as the last real bastion of the original cutaway linework. The commercial side definitely tipped to the amazing color work, but these are still rather fascinating.
These are a bit random in subject, as always, following Air International and Aeroplane issues and their feature subjects.
The first is the Alenia Aeronautical C-27 Spartan transport. Unusual in being a European production that has become one of the standards for US forces, winning out over domestically built craft. this is out of Air International, June, 2008, by Mike Badrocke.

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#8600 TWest

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 00:46

Another 4-engined aircraft, this illustration details the Avro Shackleton MR Mk. 3, Phase 3. This is the modernized version of the patrol aircraft by Mike Badrocke. There is some interesting comparison to be done, as many times, these aviation drawings are updated to later variants, not redrawn, so you get an overlay comparison of you are so inclined. The is Mike Badrocke's work reprinted in the February, 2002 issue of Aeroplane.
Tom West

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