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#901 PeterElleray

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 18:20

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Peter that would be Bill Bennett. Was the cutaway two colors, blue and black or just black ink?


David - yes i know, British Basil Fawlty sense of humour penetrated the us radar screen there ...

the autosport print was just a black and white job - like everthing else in those days - but there may have been a coloured version of it elsewhere. Bill Bennett did quite a few cutaways for a'sport, surtees ts7, brabham bt33,brm p153, lotus 72 - do you know of more or some background?

peter

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#902 PeterElleray

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 18:22

Originally posted by PeterElleray


British Basil Fawlty sense of humour penetrated the us radar screen there ...



as in 'some bloke called Montgomery who claims he was captain of the winning side at this place called El alamein'....

#903 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 21:21

Originally posted by PeterElleray


Tony - some bloke who signed himself 'Bennett MSIA Anglia Art' drew Tyrrell 001 for Autosport. You drew 003 for MN - i sitting here looking at the pair of 'em... you made a special point of drawing the full 360 deg roll over hoop as a separate drawing to illustrate the difference between them..


Peter, I did 001 with the 'Hammer-head' front wing, the roll hoop was drawn seperately because one of the journo's said it was of particular interest, and I agreed - it was a neat idea, taking the rear suspension trailing arm loads as well. Bill Bennet did the same car but the later version with the 'Chevron' nose, I think it was called. Mine also had the short-lived experimental twin-disc front brake set-up. I really liked Bill's illustration, and regarded it as a challenge to raise my game.

David, I think the two-colour version may have been used by Automobile Year.

Re the Shadow, a typically elegant Tony Southgate design, I seem to remember that initially it shook itself to pieces because it was not appreciated how much the DFV vibrated compared with the BRM V12, and bits like the rear-mounted oil coolers were solidly mounted - rubber bushes had to be hastily incorporated.

#904 PeterElleray

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 21:56

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


Peter, I did 001 with the 'Hammer-head' front wing, the roll hoop was drawn seperately because one of the journo's said it was of particular interest, and I agreed - it was a neat idea, taking the rear suspension trailing arm loads as well. Bill Bennet did the same car but the later version with the 'Chevron' nose, I think it was called. Mine also had the short-lived experimental twin-disc front brake set-up. I really liked Bill's illustration, and regarded it as a challenge to raise my game.


Tony - the Bill Bennett drawing i have from a'sport has the same 'hammer head' wing as that depicted on your cutaway - he may have done another, but i've never seen it.

Yours does have the twin disc setup.

But the rear bulkhead area on yours definately shows the full hoop , both on the scrap view and also on the main cutaway - its quite different to 001 structurally, not just a case of nailing the hoop on the back of the original chassis, and difficult to confuse the two when you have them alongside. likewise Bill Benntt's cutaway clearly shows the original fabricated bulkhead.

i would say that your cutaway approximates to 003, or 002 at the Spanish, Monaco or Dutch GP's in 1971. Did you perhaps use 002 as the reference, 002 and 003 are nominally identical?

i'll scan them in tomorrow if you cant lay your hands on your own copy(ies)?

rgds

peter

#905 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 22:11

Oh, well then! I obviously did 003 (or 002)! But I don't remember seeing Bill's 'hammer-head', only the prettier, later car. I went to 'Chopper's Wood Yard on May 27 1971 to take the photographs for the cutaway, if that helps.

#906 PeterElleray

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 22:22

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
Oh, well then! I obviously did 003! But I don't remember seeing Bill's 'hammer-head', only the prettier, later car. I went to 'Chopper's Wood Yard on May 27 1971 to take the photographs for the cutaway, if that helps.


The Thursday after the Monaco GP... Not really, 003 had been rebuilt following its Silverstone shunt with a new monocque, which according to McNally in A'Sport made it 'to all intents and purposes a brand new car' - perhaps we should get him to post on the other thread thats running... 001 was taken to Monaco as the spare, and 002 ran initially with the twin disc setup you depict - although it didn't race them.

so i dunno - i reckon it might be 002 you used a reference.

peter

#907 macoran

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 22:48

Originally posted by PeterElleray


Yours does have the twin disc setup.


I really would like to see that !

#908 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 22:49

Originally posted by PeterElleray


The Thursday after the Monaco GP... Not really, 003 had been rebuilt following its Silverstone shunt with a new monocque, which according to McNally in A'Sport made it 'to all intents and purposes a brand new car' - perhaps we should get him to post on the other thread thats running... 001 was taken to Monaco as the spare, and 002 ran initially with the twin disc setup you depict - although it didn't race them.


I took the twin-disc reference photos at Silverstone, 7.5.71 is shown as a trip to the circuit, perhaps I took them then. I obviously should not have given away all my Automobile Year and Autocourse volumes, or thrown away my Motor Sports. Ho hum.

#909 PeterElleray

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 22:55

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


I took the twin-disc reference photos at Silverstone, 7.5.71 is shown as a trip to the circuit, perhaps I took them then. I obviously should not have given away all my Automobile Year and Autocourse volumes, or thrown away my Motor Sports. Ho hum.


YOU DID WHAT ??!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

#910 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 23:04

Divorce and down-sizing forces drastic action - at least the books went to a good home. As for the magazines, I contacted two well-known dealers in second hand printed matter and they could hardly bring themselves to speak to me - Nah, not much demand, nah, not worth anything, yeah, bring 'em down if you wanna get rid of 'en, nah, we don't collect - so about a tonne of magazines went in the skip. Don't forget, I am not in the business anymore, it's only TNF that has got my juices flowing again, but it doesn't change anything. And I still have the cutaways...!

And not to speak of the wheely-bin of video tapes and the 450 'D' Type cutaway prints...

#911 vadim

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 23:12

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
Oh, well then! I obviously did 003 (or 002)! But I don't remember seeing Bill's 'hammer-head', only the prettier, later car. I went to 'Chopper's Wood Yard on May 27 1971 to take the photographs for the cutaway, if that helps.


Sorry, do you mean this Bill's 'hammer-head' 003?
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#912 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 23:21

Originally posted by vadim


Sorry, do you mean this Bill's 'hammer-head' 003?


Hi Vadim - that is the version I have always thought of as the 'Chevron' nose, but I will have to leave it to Peter to tell me which Type number it is...but I can see the full 'roll-hoop' at the rear of the tub! The 'hammer-head' had a flat wing straight across, incorporating the top of the nose, I'll see if I can find it...

#913 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 23:35

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Actually it doesn't look too bad now I see it again - but as to which one it is...

#914 PeterElleray

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 23:47

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


Hi Vadim - that is the version I have always thought of as the 'Chevron' nose, but I will have to leave it to Peter to tell me which one Type number it is...but I can see the full 'roll-hoop' at the rear of the tub! The 'hammer-head' had a flat wing straaight across, incorporating the top of the nose, I'll see if I can find it...


well done - ive been looking for it aswell - it was published in autosport w/e oct 28th 1971, whereas the one i had referenced earlier was from a'sport w/e March 4th 1971. so i must have seen this before, despite what i said earlier, but had no recollection of it. Looks like Bill Bennett did two different cutaways then - they dont look like the same one 'doctored' , the perspective is slightly different.

The sports car nose version will be taken with ref to either 002, 003 or 004. The march version is definately 001 - or SP as it would have been known within the team.

Tony - I think whats caused the confusion, is that there are two different Bennett cutaways. You are quite right in saying that he did 003 with the sports car nose - and here it is. But i was also right about him doing 001 with the hammer head - i will post it tomorrow. where it went wrong was with what you thought you had done - as you can see in the last post, its the full roll hoop version with the hoop spiggoted into the rear of the tub - which makes it 002 or 003 (004 would not have been around in May 1971), but wearing its original, 001 like, hammmer head nose, as opposed to the chevron nose that everyone now associates with it - which first appeared at the French Gp in July 1971.

The easy way to tell them apart is that 001 had the roll hoop stays facing rear and bolted to the dfv cambox covers, the later cars had them facing forwards and spigotted into the box section structure built into the seatback...

Now this could start a sub thread on which Bill Bennett cutaway is the original, and which is a replica...

#915 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 00:12

Blimey, just shows how these things snowball...I'm considering starting a thread - 'Things I have forgotten', but I can't remember what they are...Well, time to tuck my head under my wing and get a good grip on the perch, don't want to fall off! Actually, it's more embarrassing when your grip just slackens a bit, due to mild cramp or something, and you end up hanging upside down. There's a couple of rooks round here with a nasty sense of humour...

#916 PeterElleray

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 08:09

this is the first bill bennett tyrrell cutaway, 001, cklearly a relative of the later, full nose version, but not the same drawing - i think. differences in rear bulkhead and roll hoop clearly visible when downloaded and opened full size ( ignore the cutaway of the wishbone, its from a later 'motor' feature - i will post the full cutaway from that shortly).

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peter

#917 vadim

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 09:31

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


Hi Vadim - that is the version I have always thought of as the 'Chevron' nose, but I will have to leave it to Peter to tell me which Type number it is...but I can see the full 'roll-hoop' at the rear of the tub! The 'hammer-head' had a flat wing straight across, incorporating the top of the nose, I'll see if I can find it...


Thanks Tony! ... and I'm sorry for my mistake :)

#918 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 09:44

Originally posted by vadim


Thanks Tony! ... and I'm sorry for my mistake :)


Vadim, you will have to work hard if you want to make more mistakes than me!;)

#919 David M. Kane

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 15:38

What great fun to contrast the two styles!

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#920 macoran

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 16:25

More styles to compare
D'Allesio Hammerhead and a Hatton Chevron nose

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Got to find some Betti's now

#921 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 17:41

All this makes me wonder - which car was the subject of the most cutaway? We're up to five for the Tyrrell (alright, slightly different models, but to me, essentially the same vehicle - Peter may disagree!) and what's the betting that macoran comes up with more! There must be a Ferrari that's been 'done' several times...

#922 PeterElleray

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 18:04

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
All this makes me wonder - wich car was the subject of the most cutaway? We're up to five for the Tyrrell (alright, slightly different models, but to me, essentially the same vehicle - Peter may disagree!) and what's the betting that macoran comes up with more! There must be a Ferrari that's been 'done' several times...


yes i was wondering that aswell ..

i agree, same basic model of tyrrell - but many more differences below the skin than initially apparent - and not just details. same thing happened when we did the first Bentley's - using the chassis tooling for the VW prototype that should have had the w12 in it - virtually nothing interchangeable by the end of the job, different wheelbase, overhang, tub, suspension, let alone a v8 turbo engine, but the two looked sufficiently similar that 'motor sport' in its 'low' period, and almost certainly in blissful ignorance, used a studio shot of the vw car to illustrate an article on the 'lemans winning Bentley'.

must be a designers disease - after all the effort, be it mine or usually someone else's, just like to get the facts straight...

peter

#923 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 18:31

Originally posted by PeterElleray
must be a designers disease - after all the effort, be it mine or usually someone else's, just like to get the facts straight...

peter


Peter, don't get me wrong, I have been called Mr Pedantic, and I am delighted that you have shone some light on the Tyrrell business. The problem is that I was very new to going to circuits and team headquarters, on my own, charged with handling an unfamiliar camera and having to collect enough information to prepare a cutaway - at that time, also a fairly daunting prospect. The result is that I did not always take enough note of exact types, chassis numbers and other detail that I now wish I had!

The other problem is that (and I may offend a few people here, I sometimes forget that this is not a fire-side chat) there were no natural heirs at Standard House, or so it seemed, to DSJ, and whilst I saw him every so-often, and we occasionally chatted, I got the impression that he was less interested in the F1 cars that were appearing in the early seventies than before. He certainly never discussed the technical detail of the cars I was illustrating with me, which I found slightly odd.

The only time I can remember any lengthy conversation was when he maintained that a reflection that I had painted in a 'chrome' part of the slightly garish paintwork of the Lotus 87 was wrong. I explained why I thought I was right, he maintained I was wrong! I found a photograph in the LAT Photographic department taken from a similar angle and lo!, there was the reflection! But on seeing it he just grunted something about it still being 'wrong'. However, when he wrote the text to accompany the Motor Sport colour cutaways, it was back to the usual DSJ. Perhaps he was just not that interested in technical illustration, or in my work.

So, please don't feel that I am somehow belittling your determination to correct me on detail - I think it is fascinating, more, more...!

#924 ibsenop

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 18:51

Betti's Tyrrell cutaway

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Ibsen

Edited by ibsenop, 18 February 2012 - 11:00.


#925 PeterElleray

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 19:09

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


Peter, don't get me wrong, I have been called Mr Pedantic, and I am delighted that you have shone some light on the Tyrrell business. The problem is that I was very new to going to circuits and team headquarters, on my own, charged with handling an unfamiliar camera and having to collect enough information to prepare a cutaway - at that time, also a fairly daunting prospect. The result is that I did not always take enough note of exact types, chassis numbers and other detail that I now wish I had!

The other problem is that (and I may offend a few people here, I sometimes forget that this is not a fire-side chat) there were no natural heirs at Standard House, or so it seemed, to DSJ, and whilst I saw him every so-often, and we occasionally chatted, I got the impression that he was less interested in the F1 cars that were appearing in the early seventies than before. He certainly never discussed the technical detail of the cars I was illustrating with me, which I found slightly odd.

The only time I can remember any lengthy conversation was when he maintained that a reflection that I had painted in a 'chrome' part of the slightly garish paintwork of the Lotus 87 was wrong. I explained why I thought I was right, he maintained I was wrong! I found a photograph in the LAT Photographic department taken from a similar angle and lo!, there was the reflection! But on seeing it he just grunted something about it still being 'wrong'. However, when he wrote the text to accompany the Motor Sport colour cutaways, it was back to the usual DSJ. Perhaps he was just not that interested in technical illustration, or in my work.

So, please don't feel that I am somehow belittling your determination to correct me on detail - I think it is fascinating, more, more...!


tony - i dint take you the wrong way, no need to explain - personally i cant imagine how you could produce such fine work without having the designers pedantry for detail and correctness, so it was assumed on my part that you had before i even started to type! i also share your preoccupation with getting the photography sorted - whenever i am at an historic meeting these days i am usually consumed with getting the pictures i am after to the detriment of enjoying the ambience. still, 10000 digi pics later, im not sorry about that..

interesting that you broach the subject of dsj's contemporary attitude to f1 cars.. in the early 70's he would have been a similar age to myself now, and i can understand where he might have been coming from - it certainly comes across in his writing from that pre turbo era (which seemed to fire him up again) that the cosworth generation of cars was perhaps not the era which stimulated him the most - although i think the engine itself got his attention.

anyway, for reasons almost certainly down to 'formative years', whereas i can struggle to identify one Cooper from another - but am still very interested - the 70's generation is the one that grabs my attention - and eye for detail ! as ive said here before, your early work will have had a lot to do with encouraging that.

cheers

peter

#926 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 19:22

Originally posted by ibsenop
Betti's Tyrrell cutaway
Ibsen


Thanks for that, Ibsen, how interesting! Strange to think we were all working away to achieve similar results, some of us oblivious of all the others! And you've beaten macoran to it...!

#927 werks prototype

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 21:50

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
All this makes me wonder - wich car was the subject of the most cutaway? We're up to five for the Tyrrell (alright, slightly different models, but to me, essentially the same vehicle - Peter may disagree!) and what's the betting that macoran comes up with more! There must be a Ferrari that's been 'done' several times...



I think a Formula 1 Williams would be in there with a shout. Even from what we've seen on these pages.

#928 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 22:08

Originally posted by werks prototype
I think a Formula 1 Williams would be in there with a shout.


You may well be right,wp, I know of several FW07's, including jayban's very nice version, but I'm blowed if I can remember any 14's and 15's etc., but I didn't take all the magazines. Quattroruote was probably full of 'em, but I didn't see them. Certainly Patrick Head never let on about other illustrators going to Didcot or Grove, perhaps he was saving my feelings. But there again, probably not...

He who knoweth, should showeth, as Chaucer said in an idle moment, later incorporating it in 'The Illustrator's Tale'. Unfortunately the miller used the manuscript, soaked in ale, to sooth his 'branded bumme' and it was then deemed unfit reading material, even by the very low standards of the day, almost National Health Service levels, and abandoned some way from Canterbury, and awaits discovery by Tony Robinson. God help 'im.

#929 werks prototype

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 23:03

:lol:


Yes, your right there Tony the FW 07. Actually I remember asking you about the multiple cutaway representations of this particular racing car previously, on page 13 of this thread. Do you remember what your response to the popularity of the FW07 was?

"it was a terrific car with green paint on it" And that was good enough for me. ;)


Ah, how I wish the 'Big book of ' Williams you previously mentioned had come to fruition. That would have been a truly seminal creation.

#930 Ivan

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 06:11

Art of the Cutaway

#931 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 07:14

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
You may well be right,wp, I know of several FW07's, including jayban's very nice version, but I'm blowed if I can remember any 14's and 15's etc., ...


Further to that, I would point out that the only Williams' that I was commissioned to do were the FW07, FW18, later modified to become a sort of FW19, and FW09 - out of sequence as it was done when the car was in the museum! - any others I did or photographed with the intention of illustrating, were done because of my admiration for the team, and love of the cars. Even then the demand for my cutaways anywhere other than in the USA was practically zero.

#932 Rancethebus

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 13:05

Mentioning cutaways of Tyrrells. I have never seen a cutaway of the P34 six-wheeler. Is anyone aware if one was ever illustrated?

#933 werks prototype

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 13:41

Originally posted by Rancethebus
Mentioning cutaways of Tyrrells. I have never seen a cutaway of the P34 six-wheeler. Is anyone aware if one was ever illustrated?



http://www.oto6.free...rell_20P34a.jpg


And for further external photography of the 'other' blue wonder.


http://images.google...l=h...sa=N&um=1

#934 ibsenop

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 16:48

Bruno Betti's Tyrrell P-34 cutaway

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Piola's Tyrrell P-34 cutaway

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Ibsen

Edited by ibsenop, 18 February 2012 - 11:02.


#935 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 17:28

Blimey! Cutaways comin' atcha! Terrific stuff...

#936 Duc-Man

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 17:42

Hallo Tony,
thanks for that Shadow DN1. I know quiet a few pictures of the car but was never aware about the bodywork at the rear. Great work like allways.

Now something different about cutaways in general: The Opel magazine 'start' used to have a poster with a Betti drawing in each issue until about maybe six (?) years ago.
Since then I haven't seen any new drawings anywhere in car magazines in ages (I speak about Germany here). Technical illustraitions like details of suspensions or wings of formula 1 cars yes but no full cutaways. Did they go out of fashion?

#937 macoran

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 19:43

Originally posted by PeterElleray


David - yes i know, British Basil Fawlty sense of humour penetrated the us radar screen there ...

the autosport print was just a black and white job - like everthing else in those days - but there may have been a coloured version of it elsewhere. Bill Bennett did quite a few cutaways for a'sport, surtees ts7, brabham bt33,brm p153, lotus 72 - do you know of more or some background?

peter


B Bennett Surtees TS8 Morand Chevy F5000,Eagle Weslake ?

#938 monoposto

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 21:27

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


Further to that, I would point out that the only Williams' that I was commissioned to do were the FW07, FW18, later modified to become a sort of FW19, and FW09 - out of sequence as it was done when the car was in the museum! - any others I did or photographed with the intention of illustrating, were done because of my admiration for the team, and love of the cars. Even then the demand for my cutaways anywhere other than in the USA was practically zero.




And one you have forgotten Tony : the 1987 Williams FW11B

#939 macoran

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 21:33

Originally posted by monoposto

the 1987 Williams FW11B


I have never seen that one !

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#940 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 21:38

Originally posted by monoposto




And one you have forgotten Tony : the 1987 Williams FW11B


No, monoposto, I wasn't commissioned, I did it for love! And the FW9B was for a part-work, so hardly paid for a week's work, but I was happy to be able to add it to my portfolio.

#941 Paulo Coimbra

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 21:47

Tony, I am 49 years old and there is a long time I am admiring of your Cutways. I find them fantastic and it is being an enormous pleasure to read your comments. Congratulations!
Hugs
:clap:

#942 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 21:50

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Here you are Marc - I'm surprised there is a motor-racing cutaway that you have not seen!

#943 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 21:55

Paulo - thank you, what a nice thing to say! We all need hugs in our lives, I am very happy to have one! Actually, what I really wanted to be was an arquiteto!

#944 Paulo Coimbra

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 22:03

Tony, and I always wanted to have been born with your talent to visualize and to place in the paper that passion for the cars!
Do you know about some cutway of " Copersucar Fittipaldi "?
Here in Brazil, we have an illustrator Walter Brito that portrayed FD-01 very well. Do you know this work?

#945 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 22:08

Originally posted by Paulo Coimbra

Do you know about some cutway of " Copersucar Fittipaldi "?
Here in Brazil, we have an illustrator Walter Brito that portrayed FD-01 very well. Do you know this work?


I have seen the name Brito, and I'm sure that I have seen his Copersucar cutaway - but reproduced very small - I can't remember where!

#946 PeterElleray

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 22:25

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


I have seen the name Brito, and I'm sure that I have seen his Copersucar cutaway - but reproduced very small - I can't remember where!


there is also one of fd04 - emmerson's car from 1976/77, rear thre quarters, again, sadly, rather low def on the version i have seen on the net. same illustrator?

peter

#947 Paulo Coimbra

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 22:27

Tony,
Am I going escan the drawing and do I place here at the forum, ok?
hugs, good night.
:up: :up:

#948 Paulo Coimbra

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 22:34

Peter,
Everything well?
Fittipaldi to which I refer is FD-01 1975, he is in 3/4 frontal.
I didn't see this FD-04... Do I yellow or Silver? I am going escan the drawing that I have post here. Ok?
hugs

#949 macoran

macoran
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Posted 23 March 2009 - 22:41

Originally posted by Tony Matthews

Here you are Marc - I'm surprised there is a motor-racing cutaway that you have not seen!


Oh there must be loads I have missed Tony. I live near Rotterdam and frequently left office at quarter to five (to visit customers of course)...literally raced to a newsagent in Amsterdam to pop in just before doors closing at 6.30 to get my copy of Quattroruote. I am speaking of the late 70s early 80s, and.... : hadn't heard of the artist named Matthews then yet. But in the following years I have caught up and buy any lot of magazines I can.
Was just outbid on a lot of SCG mags from the 60s on E bay which should have contained some La Tourette cutaways

#950 ibsenop

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 23:08

Technical Art Fittipaldi FD-04 cutaway

Posted Image

Ibsen

Edited by ibsenop, 18 February 2012 - 11:03.