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The cutaway drawing and its artists


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#9801 Tim Murray

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 06:37

This image came from the December 1962 issue of Road & Track and is cataloged in this forum's index as a BRM P51. L.J.K. Setright identifies the 1962 BRM as the Type 56 in his The Grand Prix Car 1956-1966. As drawn by Allington this was the final variation of the exhaust headers tried during 1962. No matter how it is identified, this is the car in which Graham Hill won his first Driver's World Championship in '62.

The designation P56 (not Type 56) refers to the V8 engine. The car itself was designated P57 when it was fitted with the Climax engine, and P578 when fitted with the V8 engine. P51 is incorrect.

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#9802 bradbury west

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 15:35

Frisky, copyright unknon, taken from C&SC magazine, duly recognised, and LAT from whose files it came, I believe. I think there imay be a similar cutaway in the Eagle book.
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#9803 tbolt

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 17:05

Frisky by L Ashwell Wood, from the second Eagle book of cutaways

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#9804 Embers

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 17:06

The designation P56 (not Type 56) refers to the V8 engine. The car itself was designated P57 when it was fitted with the Climax engine, and P578 when fitted with the V8 engine. P51 is incorrect.


Thanks for clearing that up, Tim. Is there any list showing the "P" numbers and what cars they refer to?

#9805 werks prototype

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 17:32

It is Frisky season. I told you. And now they start to appear in their droves!

#9806 werks prototype

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 17:42

Posted Image Here is the B&W version of the BRM illustrated by James A. Allington and previously shown (colorized) at Post 3980. This image came from the December 1962 issue of Road & Track and is cataloged in this forum's index as a BRM P51. L.J.K. Setright identifies the 1962 BRM as the Type 56 in his The Grand Prix Car 1956-1966. As drawn by Allington this was the final variation of the exhaust headers tried during 1962. No matter how it is identified, this is the car in which Graham Hill won his first Driver's World Championship in '62.


It is very interesting to see you discussing all the little variations like this Embers. :up: I think there is a similar case with James Allington's Dino 246 and Ferrari 156 having also been drawn in multiples, and with in-season (or prototype to final) variations added. It is sometimes a difficult thing to pick up on.

#9807 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 17:46

I think I'm right in saying that the Ferrari 156 was drawn once, then modified with an overlay.

#9808 Tim Murray

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 18:40

Is there any list showing the "P" numbers and what cars they refer to?

There's an excellent series of books by an eminent TNFer (roll on Volume 4).

For a summary of the BRMs of this period, here's what Doug wrote in an earlier thread:

No, not really....although the P48 Mark II indeed evolved into the P57-Climax cars there were critical differences between the two types of chassis frame.

And if by 'V8 P57s' Dave means the only two such cars that were in reality built - or converted - for Tony Marsh and Jack Lewis in 1962, no their original 1961 chassis serials were not changed at all.

Permit me...

P48 -

1959-1960 P48 basic form - 3 brakes, 1 on each front hub, plus 'bacon-slicer' on back of gearbox. Strut-type rear suspension with high rear frame to provide top spring/damper abutments. 1.5-inch 17SWG tube bottom chassis rails, 1.25-inch 17SWG top chassis rails, 1.25-inch 17SWG diagonals in side bays.

P48 Mark II -

1960-61 ICF P48 Mark II - 4 brakes, 1 on each hub both front and rear, double wishbone rear suspension, revised lowered-level rear frame - tubed as above.

P57 -

1961 F1 (Climax-engined) P57 - 4-brakes, all wishbone suspension etc, similar size top and bottom chassis rails to P48s but with rear frame sections around engine bay totally different from P48 'Mark I' and Mark II form, and with 1.0-inch 17SWG diagonals in this area - plus seatback bulkhead frame reclined more steeply than either P48.

'P57 V8' (Project 58 was the gearbox adaptor for same) -

P57 with rear end modified for V8 engine (Marsh and Lewis 1962) - completely new rear frame welded on behind seat-back bulkhead with detachable top tubes to allow engine installation and removal.

P578 (1962 World Champion car) -

P578 - 4 brakes, all-wizzer susp. of course - seatback bulkhead frame even more steeply reclined than in P57 - bottom frame rails only 1.25-inch 18-gauge tube-wall (about as thick as a razor blade) tube - top frame rails 1-inch 18SWG, diagonals in mainly 1.0-inch 18SWG tube...a very, very, lightweight structure even by the standards of the time.

These are distinctively different cars and I repeat - do not be mislead by past attribution of P48/57 classifications - really there was no such animal

P49? - very interesting...

Incidentally, when Tony Rudd designed the monocoque-chassised 1 1/2-litre V8 - the P61 then P261 - he enthused to young team maths boffin Mike Pilbeam - "It will fit inside a Lotus 25"... which gives a vivid picture of ithat those cars' tiny cross-sectional size.

DCN


Here's quite a good BRM site listing the major P-numbers:

http://members.madas...son/brmcars.htm

#9809 werks prototype

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 18:47

I think I'm right in saying that the Ferrari 156 was drawn once, then modified with an overlay.


Can you remember what was altered on the 156 drawing? The rear suspension, cam-cover heads, gearbox placement?

#9810 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 22:08

The rear suspension, cam-cover heads, gearbox placement?

In a word, werks, yes! But now I am beginning to think that the revised rear end was drawn seperately, and not added to the unchanged front end. I think the complete car and modified rear end were printed together as two illustrations. I think... It was a long time ago!

#9811 helioseism

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 23:04

1962 Ferrari 156 Sharknose F1 by Allington.


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Tony - Is this the Ferrari 156 you mean? It's on page 176.

#9812 ibsenop

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 23:37

The designation P56 (not Type 56) refers to the V8 engine. The car itself was designated P57 when it was fitted with the Climax engine, and P578 when fitted with the V8 engine. P51 is incorrect.


No more BRM P51.
P578 in the index. Thank you.

#9813 Tim Murray

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 23:39

Excellent - thanks Ibsen.

#9814 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 06:01

Tony - Is this the Ferrari 156 you mean? It's on page 176.

Yes, Frank, although when I was writing, the image I had in my head was of a vehicle drawn from the rear, going from R to L. That must have been another cutaway! I should have made a point of cataloging what we did, but we didn't even have job sheets when I started, Jim was churning out cutaways, I was flat out doing parts list and service illustrations with whoever else was working there at the time. It didn't seem important! I have a much better idea of what I did as I kept work diaries, and I can also roughly date things by the fact that I put the year behind my signature... Cool, eh?

Edited by Tony Matthews, 23 August 2011 - 06:02.


#9815 tbolt

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 18:41

There was a photograph of the Schroeder Cyclogyro in a Newspaper today, the only time I have seen an aircraft like this was in a film clip about 100 years old, and the aircraft was thrashing itself to pieces, never though anyone actually built and flew one, a quick search shows that they were being built into the 30's, there is a picture of one in flight here cyclogyro also found a cutaway, but nothing saying if this one got further than the drawing board. After digging deeper I have found reference to several being built and being tested in wind tunnels but not of any being flown.

Cyclogyro 1935 artist unknown
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Edited by tbolt, 23 August 2011 - 20:14.


#9816 Motocar

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 04:59

AVIC FTC-2000 cutaway :p :rotfl: :cool:
This is my modest contribution, Cutaway of new chinese training fighter aircraft AVIC FTC-2000, author unknow. Xinhui Scan CDF, this drawing modified by my from nose of J-7MG, P.D. Excuse my poor english.

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Success

Edited by Motocar, 24 August 2011 - 05:05.


#9817 Tony Matthews

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 05:41

Success indeed - I can't see the join! :up:

#9818 thiscocks

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 09:08

Posted Image
Matra 60 degree, V12. Artist, Robert Roux/Matra Sport.

B&w line version of the 60 degree Matra V12. As posted previously in glorious 'Technicolor' (Left over 3d-glasses from the cinema perhaps at last required) by Marc, way, ..............................way back on page 22.

(Inlight of the possible appearance of the Meadows Frisky, coincidentally, the Moveo above, was another, reputedly designed with a Meadows engine in mind)


is that the one used in the F1 cars? Didnt realise it had the intakes in the middle of the cams, quite unusual...

#9819 TWest

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 17:21

is that the one used in the F1 cars? Didnt realise it had the intakes in the middle of the cams, quite unusual...


I believe that most of the top engines of the day had those DOHC heads with intake in the valley between, thinking the Ford, the Flat-12 Ferrari, the BRMs, etc. Don't think it was that unusual.
Tom West

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#9820 Tony Matthews

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 20:32

I like the look of those engines, somehow they look fierce! Race engines should look fierce, exciting, not like the engines in most top-of-the-range prestige cars, you lift the bonnet of most of them and the engine looks as exciting as a Samsonite suitcase.

Samsonite suitcases are superbly designed and not only do their job incredibly well, but are astonishing value. Ow, look, that hurts... I've said I'm sorry.

#9821 thiscocks

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 20:51

I believe that most of the top engines of the day had those DOHC heads with intake in the valley between, thinking the Ford, the Flat-12 Ferrari, the BRMs, etc. Don't think it was that unusual.
Tom West


Didn't the dfv have them on the middle of the banks? I'll have to have a closer look at the engines of that era and see.

Agreed- love the aggressive look (and sound!) of those matras: especially the late 60s (?) one with 'those' exhaust pipes- which I'm sure you have probably drawn at some point tony!

#9822 Tony Matthews

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 20:55

The DFV did, but not all engines did.

#9823 Tim Murray

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 21:00

The point here is that the Matra has its intakes between the camshafts on each bank of cylinders, not in the valley between the banks.

#9824 werks prototype

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 21:16

is that the one used in the F1 cars? Didnt realise it had the intakes in the middle of the cams, quite unusual...


This is the Sports Prototype engine. But I think you are right to pick up on that, because I think the intakes were later moved to inside the V?

#9825 werks prototype

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 21:23

Posted Image
McLaren MP4-4. Artist unknown. Antonio Eiras?

Edited by werks prototype, 24 August 2011 - 22:51.


#9826 werks prototype

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 21:23

Posted Image
Alfa Romeo 155 TS. Artist, Milanesi.

#9827 werks prototype

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 21:24

Posted Image
Bentley 8-litre, engine. 1930. Artist, Max Millar.

#9828 werks prototype

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 21:32

Dreadful quality I'm afraid, but the Röhr-Werke ball, is now rolling in this thread!

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Röhr-Werke AG, 8-Cylinder? Artist unknown.

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Röhr-Werke AG, F? Artist unknown.

#9829 thiscocks

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 21:47

This is the Sports Prototype engine. But I think you are right to pick up on that, because I think the intakes were later moved to inside the V?

Ah ok, perhaps it didn't work then... interesting.

#9830 macoran

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 22:11

This is the Sports Prototype engine. But I think you are right to pick up on that, because I think the intakes were later moved to inside the V?

I am still checking, but I am sure it was used in the 1968 MS120 for the first few races

Edited by macoran, 24 August 2011 - 22:15.


#9831 Paulo Coimbra

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 22:28

Posted Image
McLaren MP4-4. Artist unknown.


Friends,
Was this Raio -X made by Antonio Eiras, artist Portuguese, correct?
rgds
Paulo Coimbra

#9832 Tim Murray

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 22:44

I am still checking, but I am sure it was used in the 1968 MS120 for the first few races

Yes indeed. The original version of the V12 was the MS9, and this was the version with the intakes between the camshafts. This was raced in F1 in the MS11 (not MS120) during 1968. During 1969 the engine was completely reworked to become the MS12. One of the changes was the moving of the intakes to the more conventional location between the cylinder banks.

Edited by Tim Murray, 24 August 2011 - 22:49.


#9833 werks prototype

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 22:50

Friends,
Was this Raio -X made by Antonio Eiras, artist Portuguese, correct?
rgds
Paulo Coimbra


I think you might be right there, Paulo!

Especially looking at the colouring! I'll edit my original post and add his name provisionally. :up:

#9834 macoran

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 23:13

Yes indeed. This was raced in F1 in the MS11 (not MS120) during 1968.

Oeps yes Tim !!

#9835 ibsenop

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 23:19

is that the one used in the F1 cars? Didnt realise it had the intakes in the middle of the cams, quite unusual...


The Matra MS9 engine was raced in F1 by Matra MS11 (see post 6534 - page 164) as Tim Murray wrote and by Matra 630 (see post 3204 - page 81), 630-650 and 650 (see post 2995 - page 75) Prototypes.

Posted Image Posted Image

The Matra MS12 engine was raced in F1 by Matra MS120 (see post 4324 - page 109) and by Matra 660 (see post 850 - page 22), 670 (see post 3963 - page 100) and 680 (see post 6534 - page 164) Prototypes.

Edited by ibsenop, 24 August 2011 - 23:27.


#9836 harerton

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 11:44

Posted Image

McLaren MP4-4. Artist unknown.

Friends,
Was this Raio -X made by Antonio Eiras, artist Portuguese, correct?
rgds
Paulo Coimbra



I remember I had a big poster with a modified version of that illustration - the number 11 and the name Prost were taken out - otherwise it wouldn't had sold that much in Brazil at that time...

I have a '88 season yearbook by portuguese journalist Francisco Santos, where a small black and white version of that illustration is included. The signature is very small, but it seems to be Antonio Eiras (who, by the way, did all the other drawings on that book).

Harerton


#9837 CVA

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:12

hotchkiss grégoire proto 1949
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#9838 bradbury west

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:05

hotchkiss grégoire proto 1949 [


What a good find. The whole Gregoire story fascinates me for a variety of reasons.
Roger Lund


#9839 werks prototype

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:10

Posted Image
Alfa Romeo,'Spica' fuel injected version of the double-overhead camshaft 4 cylinder engine.

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#9840 werks prototype

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:12

Posted Image
Alfa-Abarth-Pinin Farina 1100 Record. Perforated box section chassis structure. (Not a cutaway, but revealing nonetheless)

#9841 werks prototype

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:12

Posted Image
Lotus 78. Artist, Giorgio Piola.

#9842 werks prototype

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:12

Posted Image
Lotus 79, 1978. Artist, Giorgio Piola.

#9843 werks prototype

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:14

Posted Image
Lotus 87. Artist, Giorgio Piola.

#9844 Tony Matthews

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:16

What a good find. The whole Gregoire story fascinates me for a variety of reasons.
Roger Lund

A very interesting car, and a very nice illustration. A different style from most, but not too loose. Ah, suicide doors!

Edited by Tony Matthews, 27 August 2011 - 10:18.


#9845 TWest

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 17:23

hotchkiss grégoire proto 1949
Posted Image


That signature is not ringing any bells for me. Anyone recognize it, or know anything about the artist? I do not believe that we have seen his work before.
Thanks for the help.
Tom West

#9846 TWest

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 20:32

Not quite as interesting as the Gregoire Prototype, but here are a couple of items from the Terry Davey collection of Haynes Manual covers, both from Nissan.
The first was their sports car entry of the time, the Nissan 300ZX from 1986.
Tom West

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#9847 TWest

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 20:35

My second Nissan entry from the board of Terry Davey is the Pulsar from 1985. Again, this appeared on the cover of the Haynes Manual on the type.
I apologize for the ratty appearance on these, but I copied them all at the time, so this scan is from a photocopy, for better or for worse.
At least it presents some of those basic cars that you would not otherwise see.
Tom West

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#9848 werks prototype

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:27

That signature is not ringing any bells for me. Anyone recognize it, or know anything about the artist? I do not believe that we have seen his work before.
Thanks for the help.
Tom West


Something......something.....audefoy?

Or

Something......somethingau....defoy?

Is this any help? (It must be, surely)

#9849 werks prototype

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:27

Posted Image
Triumph Dolomite. Artist Max Millar.

#9850 werks prototype

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:28

Posted Image
Railton. Artist, Max Millar.