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The cutaway drawing and its artists


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#201 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 11:41

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#202 seldo

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 11:42

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


..snip...

Seldo sir, I work mainly from photographs that - I keep writing in the present tense, Freudian or what? - that I took myself, usually 2 or 3 35mm films, B&W, and had my own darkroom so I could tell any paranoid designer - that's not criticsm - that no-one would see them but me. If it was not a top secret or embargo'd subject then I'd use a roll of colour too. It difficult but not impossible to do an engine without works 'blue-prints', at least a couple, but if, as in the case of the first Ilmor engine, the 265A, no engine exists, it's a struggle. but, hey, what's life without the occaisional struggle? Less exhausting but ultimately less satisfying.
That's today's philosophying over and done with.

Thanks Tony - I appreciate your response. So - in almost every case, you obviously must have "intimate" access to the subject for quite some length of time in order to produce the end masterpiece...? Makes sense of course, but a mug outside observer does not appreciate the lead-time, and effort involved...
It just makes your amazing productions all the more ...ermmm....amazing... Thanks!

#203 alansart

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 11:53

Originally posted by Tony Matthews

Roger, Vincent coming soon. Hitchin is four miles from Stevenage, home of HRG, and Vincent sprinter George Brown used to have his shop and workshop in the old town centre.


I was born and bred in Stevenage and used to pass George Brown's place on my way to school everyday. He was a bit of a local hero :)

#204 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 11:57

Seldo, if the car is there, all in one piece, I could cover it photographically in a couple of hours. If I could do it as it was being stripped, as I was able to at WGPE on several occaisions after a race, a bit longer, mainly because when I've got a camera in my hand there's no stopping me! The oft-heard cry of the photographer:- "Just one more shot!"

Then, nine times out of ten, rush home, into the darkroom, cup of tea while the negs dry, bash out a load of 7"x5" prints and down the pub for a late drink. It's all in the planning.

Longest wait I had at a factory, you ask. thirteen hours waiting for a PC 21 to be finished - endless delays- but that goes with the job, and while I was hanging around feeling spare and trying not to get in the way, a big bunch of very tired people were trying to meet a deadline - heroes one and all. Five minutes after my last shot the car was of to Heathrow and Reading PA. Then two and a half hours drive through the emerging dawn to bed. Happy days!

#205 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 12:04

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#206 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 12:10

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#207 alansart

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 12:14

Originally posted by seldo
in almost every case, you obviously must have "intimate" access to the subject for quite some length of time in order to produce the end masterpiece...? Makes sense of course, but a mug outside observer does not appreciate the lead-time, and effort involved...


The VW engine I have already posted was an interesting one.

I flew out to Germany on the thursday. Was in the VW factory where a complete engine was available plus a few dozen photos. I was given various blueprints and pretty much all the info I needed. Using one of the external photos as a template I produced a pencil layout of the external engine view. I then found all the centre lines of the shafts, crank, cam, pistons etc and did a layout (similar to Tony's). Once I was happy that everything was in the correct place and all the components fitted, I worked out where the cutaways needed to be and if I had to do any cheats i.e. move things very slightly if they are hidden but not enough to make it look wrong. I tended to use separate sheets for all the main parts, drawn roughly and then put them all together at the end for a final presentable draft. All this was done by the monday lunchtime! It went in to VW for approval and I was back home by tuesday. About 3 weeks later I drove back to Germany with the final artwork in the back of the car although the extra view was added afterwards.

Cheers,

Alan

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#208 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 12:15

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#209 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 12:19

Very speedy, Alan, and all part of the job. Well done. I have spoken to many people who not only thought it was a hobby, were amazed to hear that, no, it didn't take a year to do that,sir, it was three damn hard weeks! TTFN

#210 GeoffR

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 12:46

Some absolutely fantastic stuff in this thread - many thanks to all those that have contributed the results of many hours of hard work.

Tony Matthews, those pencil engine drawings are interesting, any chance you can tell us what engines they are??

Thanks again.

#211 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 13:02

Greetings to Tasmania! That makes me sound like 'Two-way Family Favourites'!

The 2000 Ferrari F1 engine, factory designation 049, 3 litre V10. The complete drawing is too big to scan, but I may be able to get round that.

TM

#212 seldo

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 13:06

Thank you Tony and Alan - I remain in total awe...!
I'm also sure that you must need a very special type of brain capacity where one is able to visualise layers or almost x-ray visualise the internal components...fabulous! Makes my mind boggle..... :stoned:
You did not address my query on technical or engineering skills...?

#213 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 13:21

I never knew you did stuff for the IGS agency Alan! Marion's outfit.
I was there to help out for only about a week in '89, Helmstedt right
on the East German border just before the wall came tumbling down!
Owen Howe, Richard Brandon, Brian Hancock...some good illustrators there
all ex-Eckard Design blokes as we were.

20 years ago back in '88 I did some enjoyable work with Allen Randall at his
St.Neots office, work for Lola and Hewland. Cirrus & co will no doubt recognise
the Hewland 'exploded' illustration from the LD200 parts manual.

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#214 alansart

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 14:00

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
I never knew you did stuff for the IGS agency Alan! Marion's outfit.
I was there to help out for only about a week in '89, Helmstedt right
on the East German border just before the wall came tumbling down!
Owen Howe, Richard Brandon, Brian Hancock...some good illustrators there
all ex-Eckard Design blokes as we were.

20 years ago back in '88 I did some enjoyable work with Allen Randall at his
St.Neots office, work for Lola and Hewland. Cirrus & co will no doubt recognise
the Hewland 'exploded' illustration from the LD200 parts manual.


Yes I stayed in touch with Marion after I left Eckard and she set up IGS with Owen. They gave me a bit of work on occasions.

I did the engines just after the wall came down. I drove through the night to deliver the stuff and couldn't believe the amount of lorries on the road. Apparently they prefered to drive at night to avoid all the slow smoky Trabants that seemed to have taken over the Autobahn between Hanover and Berlin during the day.

I think anybody who lasted any sort of time at Eckard/IGS were pretty reasonable illustrators. Those that weren't or couldn't cope with the hours soon went.

There were 2 Randalls at Eckard Allen from St Neots and Alan from the Norwich area who was an ex England team fisherman who was so laid back he was almost falling over and had a sense of humour that was totally lost on anybody other than the English.

Happy days :)

#215 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 15:08

Originally posted by alansart


Yes I stayed in touch with Marion after I left Eckard and she set up IGS with Owen. They gave me a bit of work on occasions.

I did the engines just after the wall came down. I drove through the night to deliver the stuff and couldn't believe the amount of lorries on the road. Apparently they prefered to drive at night to avoid all the slow smoky Trabants that seemed to have taken over the Autobahn between Hanover and Berlin during the day.

I think anybody who lasted any sort of time at Eckard/IGS were pretty reasonable illustrators. Those that weren't or couldn't cope with the hours soon went.

There were 2 Randalls at Eckard Allen from St Neots and Alan from the Norwich area who was an ex England team fisherman who was so laid back he was almost falling over and had a sense of humour that was totally lost on anybody other than the English.

Happy days :)


That's the best humour.

#216 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 15:27

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#217 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 15:33

GeoffR, this is the best I can do of the complete working drawing of the 049 engine, the book is to big for the scanner. However, the areas covered by the four small drawings are all in here somewhere, contributing to the whole. That was the most 'suplimentary' drawings I did for one illustration, normally there would be none or just a small one to clear-up a complex area.

TM

#218 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 15:52

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#219 alansart

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 16:01

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
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That's what I want see. Wonderful :)

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#220 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 16:14

And this is the best I can do of the finished artwork.

Seldo, I think all technical illustrators have manual dexterity, for a start. I bet I'm not the only one that has aeromodelling as a background, and if not aero then some other form of modelling. The technical side is not too difficult to pick up - don't forget, our job is to show other people what has been designed by the REALLY clever ones, the design engineers. Of course I have a reasonable knowledge, I've re-built engines and gearboxes - a 1970's FF racer who had several mechanics over the seasons told me once that I was the only one who he could trust to change ratios in his Hewland box. Didn't stop me sweating when I did it, though!

Mario Ilien would tease me sometimes, asking of some fiendish new tiny air/oil seperator, "Do you know how it works, Tony?" to which I would blush prettily and mumble that er, no, not really. But it didn't stop me drawing it! As for vibration dampers - forget it! Not only did I not know how they worked I wasn't ever allowed to include one in an Ilmor illustration and Ferrari wouldn't let me even SEE one, let alone photograph one and promise not to draw it. Nor, I've just remembered, was I ever allowed to show the inside of a plenum chamber.

What you DO have to be able to do is read engineering drawings. However, it doesn't help when a few drawings of an 80degree V10 are mixed up with the bulk of 90 degree V10 drawings. Perhaps someone at Maranello was trying to keep me on my toes. As it was it nearly kept me on my knees for a day and a half.

TM

#221 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 16:21

Lovely to see that pencil layout Tony. Reminds me that the longer you worked on a complex layout, the grubbier the tracing paper would get! The one thing good about doing computer graphics is you can repeat components easily, cut and paste rivets, nuts, bolts. Working in layers too you can hide components for more clarity.
But no soul...drawing/painting by hand is the most satisfying form of illustration.

#222 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 16:24

Andrew, you'll never see me beavering away at a computer! Oops!

The only time I used to use one was to add annotation and type invoices!

#223 TooTall

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 16:42

Absolutely stellar thread! Thank you for joining Tony, brilliant stuff! I made my living as a Tech Illustrator in the US aerospace industry for many years. While working for the North American Aircraft Division of Rockwell Int. I was selected to be the guinea pig for a new computerized illustration system. I ended up becoming the system manager and have worked in IT on graphic systems ever since. My wife is a Tech Illustrator and works on the C-17 program, also on a computer. We were always required to work in isometric because it was faster. If you go to post 54 of this thread there is a poor B/W photo of a Ferrari 312 cutaway I did in school along with a piece I lifted from an old P-51 tech manual I liberated from North American. Unfortunately, most of my work belongs to other people (mainly the US Air Force) and isn't accessible.

Cheers,
Kurt O. (who still has pen, ink, triangles and a Leroy lettering set!)

#224 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 16:57

Hi Kurt,

When I first stumbled upon this web site I was going to gently josh you about copyright, but after what Geogio Piaola (I bet that spelling is wrong) did to me in the Seventies I'm almost immune to it. If I'd thought you had gained financially from it I would, even now, be after you like the American Pitbull in 'No country for Old Men' and you would have to finish me off in the same way. Grrr.

As it is, I'm flattered, and if I helped someone I didn't know without realising it - well, good!

TM

#225 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 17:16

Originally posted by alansart


I was born and bred in Stevenage and used to pass George Brown's place on my way to school everyday. He was a bit of a local hero :)


Must have been Alleyns then Alan.

#226 TooTall

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 17:26

Hi Tony,

No worries, I'm a crack shot with a rifle! Of course you are right, lifting the line work from someone else is of course infringement, but it was always intended to be just a student piece. Actually, if you could see it in person it is quite crude and no where near your quality. It did make a nice portfolio piece but I always included the original line drawing cut from the "Ferrari Mondial" book. I've always wanted to do a piece from the ground up. I have a Triumph TR2 in my garage partly disassembled. I've thought of shooting a series of photos of that as I assemble it and going from there.

If I may ask, how do you transfer you layouts to the illustration board?

Cheers,
Kurt O.

#227 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 17:47

Hello again Kurt,

I had no idea you got it from the Ferrari Mondial book - which I've never seen - was it credited to me, I wonder. I did a colour version for Motor Sport, based on the B&W vesion done for Motoring News.

Shortly after I finished the painting and un-stapled prints were floating around Standard House one of the journo's, Jeremy Walton, said "I'm going to Maranello next week, shall I take a print and see if I can get The Old Man to sign it?"

Apparently Mr Ferrari thought it was a gift, saying "Bella, bella!" but JW fought back, and I still have it somewhere, but the temptation to hang it on the wall was too great - not only is the print very faded but 'ferrari' in purple felt-tip is now the very faintest sepia ghost. Just remembered I've got another one signed by Niki Lauda, not faded.

I'm off to buy a bottle of wine, the Glenfiddich is gone and anyway, I'm not much of a whiskey drinker these days. Roll on the Costa Blanca next week!

TM

Sorry, nearly forgot, Transfer paper, can't remember the make, but an American product, under the draughting film and over the CS2 watercolour board - then a solid day, day and a bit, going over the lines I wanted with a stylus. That is when you appreciate a good radio/CD player.

#228 alansart

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 18:50

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


Must have been Alleyns then Alan.


No, Barclay, the school the other side of the fence. Our snow ball fights were legendary :)

#229 IrishMariner

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 21:14

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
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Sublime.

#230 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 22:27

Originally posted by alansart


I was born and bred in Stevenage and used to pass George Brown's place on my way to school everyday. He was a bit of a local hero :)


Ah, Stevenage! Or St Evenage as it is sometimes known. Home to not only Lewis Hamilton but my child bride. Did I marry the wrong one, I wonder. On reflection I don't really want to live in Switzerland.

#231 seldo

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 23:51

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
And this is the best I can do of the finished artwork.

Seldo, I think all technical illustrators have manual dexterity, for a start. I bet I'm not the only one that has aeromodelling as a background, and if not aero then some other form of modelling. The technical side is not too difficult to pick up - don't forget, our job is to show other people what has been designed by the REALLY clever ones, the design engineers. Of course I have a reasonable knowledge, I've re-built engines and gearboxes - a 1970's FF racer who had several mechanics over the seasons told me once that I was the only one who he could trust to change ratios in his Hewland box. Didn't stop me sweating when I did it, though!

Mario Ilien would tease me sometimes, asking of some fiendish new tiny air/oil seperator, "Do you know how it works, Tony?" to which I would blush prettily and mumble that er, no, not really. But it didn't stop me drawing it! As for vibration dampers - forget it! Not only did I not know how they worked I wasn't ever allowed to include one in an Ilmor illustration and Ferrari wouldn't let me even SEE one, let alone photograph one and promise not to draw it. Nor, I've just remembered, was I ever allowed to show the inside of a plenum chamber.

What you DO have to be able to do is read engineering drawings. However, it doesn't help when a few drawings of an 80degree V10 are mixed up with the bulk of 90 degree V10 drawings. Perhaps someone at Maranello was trying to keep me on my toes. As it was it nearly kept me on my knees for a day and a half.

TM

Thanks Tony - I remain totally amazed - Just fabulous work :clap:

#232 Jones Foyer

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 00:00

Fantastic stuff. I'd love to have a large print of a working drawing on my wall- I also love the pencil stage stuff as well as the finished work.

Thanks for the info on the perspective/lens, Tony.

I agree with the logic on the size of the final output- that makes sense that the more orthographic perspective be used in a smaller format.

I'd like to try a cutaway drawing sometime, but it's probably beyond me.

#233 Tom Johnson

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 02:29

Time to shift gears. Here's a piece of the Pitts Model 12 I recently did.

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#234 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 05:58

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


Ah, Stevenage! Or St Evenage as it is sometimes known. Home to not only Lewis Hamilton but my child bride. Did I marry the wrong one, I wonder. On reflection I don't really want to live in Switzerland.


Well sort of, Lewis was born in the Lister hospital in Stevenage and went to school there, but the family home is in Tewin ( been there a few times), nearer to Welwyn. Geneva's not bad Tony...tad expensive mind!

#235 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 06:19

Yes, Andrew, I know about Tewin, and when I was briefly in Switzerland I was impressed, but never let the facts get in the way of a silly joke!

Thanks Tom, the next thing is to get it a little bit bigger!

TM

#236 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 14:21

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Here you are Tom.

Isn't this a lovely piece of technical illustration!

#237 Bonde

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 15:10

Hmmm...that link is broken, Tony.

There's so much activity on this thread now that it's difficult to keep up! But thanks to all for sharing your beautiful work with us! :up:

#238 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 15:23

Originally posted by Jones Foyer
Fantastic stuff. I'd love to have a large print of a working drawing on my wall- I also love the pencil stage stuff as well as the finished work.

Thanks for the info on the perspective/lens, Tony.

I agree with the logic on the size of the final output- that makes sense that the more orthographic perspective be used in a smaller format.

I'd like to try a cutaway drawing sometime, but it's probably beyond me.


Ive just remembered what I was going to say about the perspective on the Ilmor V10 cutaway - there ain't enough! The vanishing point to the left is far to distant, obvious at this size, even worse on the original 20"x30" artwork. Very silly, especially as I drew it from scratch, the perspective was in my control! I use black cotton and a drawing pin to work out the vanishing points, which is why my ex-wifes house has lots of pin-holes in the living room skirting boards. However, the left vanishing point for this illustration is not at any skirting board, it is through the living room door, down the hall, through the front door, across the lobby, through the lobby door and 6 feet across the patio!

I don't think cutaways are beyond anyone who can hold a pencil and SEE what they are looking at. I stress that because a lot of people don't seem to look analytically. Many years ago my son said "I just don't understand how you do them, they're so complicated." I said that a car, or any large object, is a complicated drawing, but it is made up of lots of smaller, simpler pieces. And that's the way to start. I used to do cutaways and exploded drawings in my mid-teens of artillary shells, from cross-sections in a very old set of Encyclopedia Brittanica - it was all cylinders, all on the same centre-line. On the day I met James Allington I went home with my brain trying to cope with all I'd seen in his studio, took out a Mills 75 engine and did a cutaway of it. I took it to him the next day after school and he said "Yep, pretty good, but you've drawn all your elipses wrong." He then did a little sketch to show me that you have a major and minor axis, and that was it - I was on my way! But it was years of doing small illustrations before I could contemplate anything large and complicated. Small illustrations are just as valid as big ones, and can be great fun to do.

#239 Jones Foyer

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 15:31

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


Ive just remembered what I was going to say about the perspective on the Ilmor V10 cutaway - there ain't enough! The vanishing point to the left is far to distant, obvious at this size, even worse on the original 20"x30" artwork. Very silly, especially as I drew it from scratch, the perspective was in my control! I use black cotton and a drawing pin to work out the vanishing points, which is why my ex-wifes house has lots of pin-holes in the living room skirting boards. However, the left vanishing point for this illustration is not at any skirting board, it is through the living room door, down the hall, through the front door, across the lobby, through the lobby door and 6 feet across the patio!

I don't think cutaways are beyond anyone who can hold a pencil and


You need a better mouse! How frustrating.

Yes, I am totally forgetting that you have to lay out your perspective so precisely and use vanishing points off of the board, my world is just eyeballing everything so I can clear out a bit of desktop and sketch on a piece of bond paper- different worlds indeed.

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#240 Jones Foyer

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 15:35

Originally posted by Tom Johnson
Time to shift gears. Here's a piece of the Pitts Model 12 I recently did.

Posted Image


That's pretty nice.

It's always interesting to see the decisions that have to be made in those drawings. Shadow is cast by the tube frame onto the engine part, but the cutaway cowling does not cast a shadow onto the engine as it would hide too much of the detail.

The logic and experience involved ensures that the true "hand made" cutaway drawing will surpass the quality of a CAD model cutaway by someone without training and experience. Though I do see the value of using Illustrator or similar software to create the tight line drawing after all the pencil under-drawing construction has been completed.

#241 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 15:45

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson


Well sort of, Lewis was born in the Lister hospital in Stevenage and went to school there, but the family home is in Tewin ( been there a few times), nearer to Welwyn. Geneva's not bad Tony...tad expensive mind!


Ware Andrew?  ;)

#242 IrishMariner

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 17:20

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson

...20 years ago back in '88 I did some enjoyable work with Allen Randall at his
St.Neots office, work for Lola and Hewland. Cirrus & co will no doubt recognise
the Hewland 'exploded' illustration from the LD200 parts manual.



Posted Image


Great work Andrew, I've seen the Hewland one before but none of the Lola work. Have you any more you can post? In particular (hint, hint) I've always liked the front suspension from the '88/'89 F3000 Car.

#243 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 21:01

It's all too, too wonderful stuff, isn't it? But I wish you'd stop posting those gorgeous images, Tony. I can't decide which to use as my wallpaper. :drunk:

Seriously, please do post away.

As a design/drafter, I've always done my best linework in the mornings. If ever I had to redraw something in the afternoon, you'd swear that it was done by somebody else! :lol:

#244 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 22:51

Hi Manfred,

Quite the opposite for me, when I was working from home I would start about 8.30, but as the day wore on and turned to evening and then inky-black night I would get faster and BETTER!. Even if I decided to stop at 11.30 or 12 I would find myself, an hour later, still sitting in front of the artwork, criticising this, accepting that, and planning how to approach the next day's work. How sad is that, on reflection!

Some of us are morning people, some are evening people and some are just obsessed! Some of us use too many exclamation marks!!!

The Ilmor-Mercedes (yes, I know it's Mercedes-Ilmore, but I know where my heart lies) was a struggle, the last 170 hours were done in 10 days, the last 27 hours in one burst, and I don't think anyone would be able to tell which parts were all-nighters and which a much more civilised 12 hour shift.

Thank you for your kind words. TM

PS. I used to hallucinate after a few days extreme pressure, and it always followed the same pattern, starting, about 3 am, with celestial music - I'd have the radio on but in the background was something...what is it? Turn off the radio, or change channels, no, it's still there. Next were the spiders, in my extreme peripheral vision, if I looked at them they were gone. Last, but by no means least - bears at the window. First floor studio, middle of the night, how was it that a bear could stand outside and look in at me? Although never openly threatening they used to give me the willies! Time to draw the curtains, get another cup of tea and turn up the radio.

#245 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 23:01

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#246 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 23:14

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#247 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 23:29

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Guess who paid for this one - and, no, it wasn't Neste

#248 IrishMariner

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 01:08

Just linking to a Ferrari Sharknose cutaway that I saw via. a Michael Turner thread. The artist is Kane Rogers out of Canada.

http://www.kaneroger...knoseprint.html

#249 NPP

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 05:34

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
I don't think cutaways are beyond anyone who can hold a pencil and SEE what they are looking at. I stress that because a lot of people don't seem to look analytically.


This must be true of many things besides drawing - playing music and driving come to mind - and it might explain why it is so difficult to teach these things: Instruction focuses on tricks and know-how, not on conveying the things that are self-evident to the instructor, but unknown to the student, and yet are essential to making use of the tricks and know-how taught. Of course, in some measure seeing what is to be drawn / hearing what you want to play in your head before you actually do it / feeling what your car will do etc. can be taught, at least a little bit, but just as there are people with absolute hearing, there will be people with analytical vision and there will be "natural" drivers who can do things that are self-evident to themselves but unattainable to others. So I doubt that you could teach most of us to see analytically ...

(sorry for the half off topic remarks)

NPP

#250 IrishMariner

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 06:23

Could this be the most advanced F1 car there's ever been? Think about it.....

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
Posted Image