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The cutaway drawing and its artists


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#2451 john winfield

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 11:18

Well, I am a brand new member of this site. I normally would be pretty frustrated and annoyed right now, because the search engine said this topic had something with the 917/30 in it. I just finished going through all 62 pages, and I am........THRILLED. I never saw anything on the 917/30, but I just spent over an hour viewing (pretty quickly, too) the wonderful drawings of so many outstanding artists. Many I have seen over the past 45 years or so, but many are totally new to me. This is a rare pleasure of seeing so many great illustrations by Tony Matthews, Bill Bennett, Bruno Betti, and too many more to list here.

I see now I must start over again from the first page, and properly consume and digest all of the wonderful information that is in this particular topic alone. If anyone can quickly point me any of the 917/30 items, I would be grateful.

I also started a new topic on info I need on the Mark Donohue CAM2 917/30. If you could find time to check it out (and maybe help us), that would just be the an extra cherry on my sundae.

Again, thank you everyone for making this particular topic such a fun one to explore!



Hello Cam2 - welcome to TNF.
When you use the 'search' facility did you notice the 'advanced search' option? This has a facility for displaying found items by individual post rather than by thread. Might that be useful in identifying specific references to the 917/30? Apologies if you have already tried this. Grandmother....eggs....sucking etc.
John

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#2452 Duc-Man

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 15:12

Here we go: the 917/30 by Bruno Betti.

Posted Image

Taken from the back cover of 'Can-Am Racing Cars' by Brookland Books
They have also a bigger version of it inside over two pages that is, like allmost allway, to big to scan in one piece.

Since I'm not very good in putting things like that together I won't bother. Anybody that wants to do it: give me a shout.

#2453 asapiro

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 16:08

New member - but I've been following this fabuulous forum for a while
thanks for this posting - several years ago I scoured the internet for cutaways of Gurney's Eagles and didn't come up with much.
By following this thread I've found a bunch that I had missed.
I didn't know that Car Life had published any of LaTourette's work.
What other cutaways did they print ????


Of course I stand corrected, the P.Grace is the ETAI, I just thought the other one looked ETAI-ish.
A colour version ?? where ????

Anyway here I go changing the subject again..... I bid a Clarence LaTourette
Posted Image



#2454 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 16:18

Well, thanks Tim (how's young Bingo, by the way?)', you gave me some goose-bumps with your post! I started reading the new posts from the bottom up, past BB's lovely 917/30, and suddenly came across what seemed like an obituary! Followed by another from Manfred! Thanks to you too, MC! I have had the occasional odd feeling lately, and I thought perhaps I had snuffed it and my eternal after-life burden was to read and respond to the Great Cutaway Thread in the Sky - almost Heaven, and certainly not Hell, apart from the fear of the reaction at my repetition ad nausium. No change there, you may say!

If I had posted everything I composed the numbers would be nearly doubled, but I frequently decide that what I've written is crap, and delete it before it hits the ether, and also the Word Association thread is responsible for a sizeable chunk of my posts...

I post too much, but I get carried away on a tide of enthusiasm! Anyway, kind comments, thanks.

Gwendolyn was very impressed, although sometimes I think that her only real interest in me is as a confidente, someone to share the Earl Grey and pink gin, and as an escort to the rare soire that she attends. Her letterbox is regularly crammed with invitations, but as she says - "Tony, dear Tony, it is a pleasure to be remembered and desired still, but I really do not have the energy that once I had - I much prefer our evenings together, as , while you are no less athletic and tireless than my younger suitors you are so much gentler, more considerate, and I have come to appreciate that!"

Game old bird...

Edited by Tony Matthews, 18 September 2009 - 16:23.


#2455 Cam2InfoNeeded

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 21:46

Hi Cam2, Bruno Betti did the Sunoco 917/30, I did the Neste Oy 917/10 in B&W, which I think has been posted here - it's got to the point where I can't remember exactly what I have posted! I don't think BB's very good /30 has been posted, but copies are floating about, I may even have one hidden away.

Edited to add - Page 10, post 365 for the 917/10


Tony,

Thank you for responding so quickly! I was always a kid who doodled all sort of race cars, but didn't have the skills (or talent possibly) to make anything presentable. At least with Photoshop, I've been able to explore my ideas, and have some fun seeing things actual become tangible.

Thank you what ever help you might be. I think there were 2 distinctly different version of the 917/30 tech drawing by Mr. Betti. One faced to the left, and one faced to the right. Any idea why he would have gone to all of the trouble to make the same car but from 2 different views?

Tony, I did find your post #365 last night. I used to have an old yellowing copy of it I got somewhere in a European magazine many years ago. I had asked a friend who was an Art School graduate and became one of the Honda designers if he could convert it to the L&M car (since my collection was totally focused on Mark Donohue stuff), but he never got around to it.

I got through about 20 pages last night after posting up my first comments and requests (the first time I really zipped through all 62 pages).. I hope to get another opportunity to enjoy another 10 or 20 pages tonight.

Regards,

doug

Edited by Cam2InfoNeeded, 18 September 2009 - 21:53.


#2456 Cam2InfoNeeded

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 21:47

Duc-man,

Thank you posting this drawing of the 917/30. I don't think their is a bigger fan of it than me.

Thanks!

doug


#2457 Tim Murray

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 22:13

Well, thanks Tim (how's young Bingo, by the way?)'

Greatly improved, I'm glad to say. That visit from Gwendolyn made all the difference - it really got his pecker up again. Please thank her profusely on my (and his) behalf.

#2458 macoran

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 22:33

Well, I am a brand new member of this site. I normally would be pretty frustrated and annoyed right now, because the search engine said this topic had something with the 917/30 in it. I just finished going through all 62 pages, and I am........THRILLED. I never saw anything on the 917/30, but I just spent over an hour viewing (pretty quickly, too) the wonderful drawings of so many outstanding artists. Many I have seen over the past 45 years or so, but many are totally new to me. This is a rare pleasure of seeing so many great illustrations by Tony Matthews, Bill Bennett, Bruno Betti, and too many more to list here.

I see now I must start over again from the first page, and properly consume and digest all of the wonderful information that is in this particular topic alone. If anyone can quickly point me any of the 917/30 items, I would be grateful.

I also started a new topic on info I need on the Mark Donohue CAM2 917/30. If you could find time to check it out (and maybe help us), that would just be the an extra cherry on my sundae.

Again, thank you everyone for making this particular topic such a fun one to explore!

I cannot remember if Ibsen did or did not post the 917/30,but his copy is loads better than the one I have
Posted Image

You'll find quite some 917/30 stuff if you look here http://images.google...ttp...t=21&um=1
scroll around a bit

Edited by macoran, 18 September 2009 - 22:47.


#2459 macoran

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 00:17

New member - but I've been following this fabuulous forum for a while
thanks for this posting - several years ago I scoured the internet for cutaways of Gurney's Eagles and didn't come up with much.
By following this thread I've found a bunch that I had missed.
I didn't know that Car Life had published any of LaTourette's work.
What other cutaways did they print ????

Car Life published mainly LaTourette work IIRC

Anyway here is an Eagle of a different sort for you, Werner BĂĽhrer's Formula A two page spread from Road&Track July 1969
Posted Image

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#2460 macoran

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 00:23

Anybody that wants to do it: give me a shout.

I just hollered

#2461 Manel Baró

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 09:54

Car Life published mainly LaTourette work IIRC

Anyway here is an Eagle of a different sort for you, Werner BĂĽhrer's Formula A two page spread from Road&Track July 1969
Posted Image


Many thanks for posting this superb sample of W. BĂĽher work I did not know. These "loose" pen & ink drawings are full of life.



#2462 elno

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 15:21

today i have found a tiny picture of a ferrari tipo 46 cutaway

Posted Image

(from the stats f1 web site)

i would be very interested to see a high size picture

If you have it, it would be very coooooool to share with us.

Merci d'avance Ă  tous :clap:

Edited by elno, 19 September 2009 - 19:26.


#2463 Cam2InfoNeeded

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 18:41

Macoran,

That Betti drawing of the 917/30 is the one I remember (facing to the right). Thank you!

The link is very interesting, too. There were several photos of Brain Redman in the car at Mid-Ohio in 1974 I had not seen. I wish there were a way to translate it into English, because I am one of the horrible Americans who only speaks (and reads) English (the Spanish I got in 5th grade has pretty much gone away after 40+ years).

Every little bit helps. I've posted my request on a few Porsche related sites, and will see what happens.

I'm going to start looking at the next 20 pages on this thread today, and take my time to read everything. :wave:

#2464 beighes

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 20:28

...... I wish there were a way to translate it into English, because I am one of the horrible Americans who only speaks (and reads) English (the Spanish I got in 5th grade has pretty much gone away after 40+ years).


Cam2InfoNeeded
Have you tried using Google Translate ?..... http://translate.google.com/?hl=en# . I have been using it quite a bit for a project that I am working on. The only drawback is that some things just do not translate well into English.
Steve

Edited by beighes, 19 September 2009 - 20:29.


#2465 Cam2InfoNeeded

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 21:50

Beighes,

I tried the Google Translator, and it works fine for me. Thank you. :clap:

doug

#2466 macoran

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 22:03

The only drawback is that some things just do not translate well into English.

I remember translating some Japanese work years ago.
In that case the Japanese used a language form called Katekane (which uses different characters to write European names)
and Brabham is written in two characters....Bra-Bum.
I used babblefish to help me with some sentences, and the sentence with Brabham in it came out reading................brassiere buttocks............. !!

Edited by macoran, 19 September 2009 - 22:51.


#2467 macoran

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 22:07

The link is very interesting, too. There were several photos of Brain Redman in the car at Mid-Ohio in 1974 I had not seen. I wish there were a way to translate it into English, because I am one of the horrible Americans who only speaks (and reads) English (the Spanish I got in 5th grade has pretty much gone away after 40+ years).

The site I linked you to is in French !!
If I have a smidgeon of time I'll give it a twirl.

#2468 beighes

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 23:15

Beighes,

I tried the Google Translator, and it works fine for me. Thank you. :clap:

doug


Your welcome. I'm glad my 100th post was of some good!
Steve

#2469 macoran

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 13:27

Two 1959 Cooper T51
Serge Bellu
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But whose is the second ?
Posted Image
I can’t put my finger on it…………


#2470 Tony Matthews

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 14:47

Looks most like Vic Berris to me, Marc, but it has had a lot more work put into it than usual...dunno, it's not completely obvious.

#2471 macoran

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 18:02

today i have found a tiny picture of a ferrari tipo 46 cutaway
Posted Image
i would be very interested to see a high size picture

I am afraid I can't help beyond the Betti 036 engine.
Then there is Tony Matthews' 049 which you must have seen !

#2472 Tony Matthews

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 18:17

Posted Image

I'll add a comment later - gotta go to work! Thanks to Ibsen.

Haven't seen this for years, and it was a bit of a surprise to see the colour - but then I realised that it has changed somewhat - probably from age. The original wasn't as colourful and 'bright' as that! The green/ turquoise that I used was an amazing match for ICI's colour, but was very difficult to make. I failed using gouache, but found a pot of poster paint that was spot on, so used that. However, it faded quite quickly - I mentioned a painting I did of a friend's 1275 S racer, metalic green, same paint, now a perfect gold, so, if it hasn't been binned, there is a gold-liveried March 792 cutaway somewhere.

I really liked these F2 cars, like previous F2's, neat, compact, technically interesting and generally pretty. This cutaway, in its real colours, was the first one that made me think I'd at last produced color artwork that looked the way I wanted it to - contrast, overall density and reflections, good old ali tubs and polished wishbones and roll-hoop! The Betti Bros approach seems to be that everything should be shiney, lots of sparkle and reflected colour, and they look terrific, but I like to see matt or semi-matt too, if it is true to the subject, and the 792 had all finishes. The only real change I made later, 1989 - the Penske PC18 - was to cut away the wheels rather than just cut a piece of tyre away, leaving the hub floating in mid-air. I don't like floating!

#2473 elno

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 20:18

Anyway, Marc, thanks for your response !

yes, i have seen the TonyMatthews's 049 ... absolutely brillant-issime! :love:

Edited by elno, 20 September 2009 - 20:36.


#2474 macoran

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 20:45

Anyway, Marc, thanks for your response ! missing words ................

Posted Image
Betti Ferrari 1990 Tipo#036 3500cc V12

Edited by macoran, 20 September 2009 - 20:53.


#2475 macoran

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 21:03

They have also a bigger version of it inside over two pages that is, like allmost allway, to big to scan in one piece.

Since I'm not very good in putting things like that together I won't bother. Anybody that wants to do it: give me a shout.

Thanks for the scans Duc-man
Posted Image

#2476 Cam2InfoNeeded

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 02:56

Macoran (or is it Duc-man),

The merged image looks pretty good to me. Thanks.

I would still like to know if making do totally different drawings of the same car is done much. I guess if some is willing to pay for it, all of the research has already be harvested, so the second one would be quicker to finish.

doug

Edited by Cam2InfoNeeded, 21 September 2009 - 02:57.


#2477 elno

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 14:23

Thanks a lot for the 036, Marc ! :up:

sorry for the edit; i have forgotten you are the "night scanner" ! ;)

#2478 Duc-Man

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 14:34

They have also a bigger version of it inside over two pages that is, like allmost allway, to big to scan in one piece.

Since I'm not very good in putting things like that together I won't bother. Anybody that wants to do it: give me a shout.

I just noticed: I'm not just bad in putting drawing together. I'm also very good in bad spelling. :blush:

Well, I had the print in a book and Marc put the two halfs together.
It was originally printed in the 'Autocar' issue from May 11th 1974. Just for the record.


#2479 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:58

I would still like to know if making do totally different drawings of the same car is done much. I guess if some is willing to pay for it, all of the research has already be harvested, so the second one would be quicker to finish.

doug



It could be a copyright thang, if the first was done for Porsche, for instance, and they decided that they didn't want anyone else to use it - do another. Had to do it myself once, with the Ferrari 250GTO. Just remembered the case of the March Champcar that I did, did the Short Oval/Road Course car from the rear three-quarter, was asked to send a copy of the working drawing to the team for appraisal, so DHL'd it to the US of A, only to get a very irate phonecall. Although there had been no prior arrangement, the client was expecting a front three-quarter view! I explained that as one of the major sponsors was an oil supplier, and their logo was on the engine cover, under which was the engine that used the oil, it seemed the right viewpoint. Mollified, if not charmed, the client agreed that I had made the right decision - but, could I do the Super Speedway version from the front? We agreed a compromise price for completely new artwork, and I burnt the midnight oil...

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#2480 macoran

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 16:30

I would still like to know if making do totally different drawings of the same car is done much. I guess if some is willing to pay for it, all of the research has already be harvested, so the second one would be quicker to finish.
doug

I know of only the following "doubles"
Bruno Betti BMW 3000 and 3500 CSL.....differently angled and minor detail differences. the 500cc difference is not visible :yawnface:
Bruno Betti Lancia Stratos HF.....the same car...registration TOL6 5176 in diferent stances
Bruno Betti Porsche 917-30.....see posts above
Bruno Betti McLaren M23...one full colour....the other B&W sketch type drawing
Bruno Betti Tyrrell P34......showing the different P34 nose versions,........although the version with the open nose was probably done with brother Giulio.

Then of course the Tony Matthews Ferrari GTO, mentioned by Tony in a post above.
All the Matthews' Indy car double versions....the road course and the Super Speedway versions.

Edited by macoran, 21 September 2009 - 16:31.


#2481 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 16:48

I know of only the following "doubles"
Bruno Betti BMW 3000 and 3500 CSL.....differently angled and minor detail differences. the 500cc difference is not visible :yawnface:
Bruno Betti Lancia Stratos HF.....the same car...registration TOL6 5176 in diferent stances
Bruno Betti Porsche 917-30.....see posts above
Bruno Betti McLaren M23...one full colour....the other B&W sketch type drawing
Bruno Betti Tyrrell P34......showing the different P34 nose versions,........although the version with the open nose was probably done with brother Giulio.

Then of course the Tony Matthews Ferrari GTO, mentioned by Tony in a post above.
All the Matthews' Indy car double versions....the road course and the Super Speedway versions.

That's a very comprehensive list Marc - have you been waiting long for the question to arise?

You can't call the Indycar Doubles as such, as the viewpoint was exactly the same, being the same artwork...!

#2482 elno

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 16:56

I would like to ask a technical question.
My knowledge of drawing being extremely rudimentary, sorry if i ask a nonsense question.

I would like to know what kind of perspective is usually used for cutaway drawings ?
perhaps the conical perspective ?
in some cases, is the isometric one sufficient ?


#2483 macoran

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 18:05

That's a very comprehensive list Marc - have you been waiting long for the question to arise?

No wait at all Tony, just that I am finally getting some sort of order and proper file management into a 43 year collection of magazine and clippings.
The loft is still a mess with stacks of paper all over the place, But I am like Peter Ludolf the German scrapyard soapy.......I stack.....but I know where
every damn sheet is hiding out !!!

Judging by the page size, this must have been published in "Motor".
Bruno Betti's 179T Alfa Romeo
Posted Image

#2484 Tom Johnson

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 19:54

I would like to ask a technical question.
My knowledge of drawing being extremely rudimentary, sorry if i ask a nonsense question.

I would like to know what kind of perspective is usually used for cutaway drawings ?
perhaps the conical perspective ?
in some cases, is the isometric one sufficient ?

Isometric is the easiest drwing method since there is no convergence of parallel lines within any given axis. This simply means that a bolt of 1' diameter will be exactly the same size no matter where it's location is on the drawing. The problem is that we do not see nature that way. I call isometric "eye-sore-metric" and although technical illustration can be done with this method, it simply never 'looks right' for my tastes.

When I do a cutaway, it starts with a good photograph of the subject taken at a proper distance and with the proper lens that gives the right 'feel' for it. Factors such as the most interesting systems and components of the subject influence the shot. I usually take several shots from varying distances then choose one that looks best and build an x/y/z perspective grid around the photo based on knowing which pairs of parts of the subject are parallel within each axis. Next, the systems are plotted in using the information from blueprints, photos and whatever other technical reference is available.

Hope that makes sense. TJ

#2485 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 21:46

What Tom said!

My way too, but I would never use isometric or axonometric because, although they have their uses, the type of technical illustration that Tom, I and do/did, and all other who have contributed, is about presenting an attractive picture that also tells you something. Here is a great looking piece of machinery, and this is where all the bits go, and from this you should have a better idea of how it works.

I was taught to draw the car from scratch, sketching the wheels in the position you wanted them, and adding the bodywork, etc. If it wasn't quite right you rubbed bits out - erased them, sorry - and sketched again until you were happy with the overal look of it, then started on the innards. Generally you don't want too much perspective, especially if the illustration is going to be reproduced quite small - this accentuates the perspective and can look very odd! Too little and the opposite happens, and you end up with something that looks like isometric!

I found that a lens of about 85mm on a 35mm camera was probably the best, but often a 50mm was all you could use, as it can be difficult to get sufficiently far away from the vehicle to use an 85mm-odd and just fill the frame. However, if all cutaways are done from the same viewpoint it gets tedious, so you need to change, and sometimes the brief will limit the choice. Certainly, starting with a photograph from about the right angle and distance is a huge help, saving a lot of time and tension, and you can add the perspective lines on top of the outline.

I've no idea what conical perspective is, I learned two- and three-point measuring-point perspective at college, but I've never used it. Now, parabolic perspective, that's something else...

Edited by Tony Matthews, 21 September 2009 - 21:50.


#2486 Tom Johnson

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 22:54

Well said Tony.

I would like to add a thought because it involves what I'm doing between posting right now.

There is a strange problem that periodically arises when getting a leg up on a project by extracting as much information as possible by tracing (some will say "cheating") from a photograph. The image on the photo will look spot-on perfect but the tracing will have areas that look absolutety all wrong. It's a weird optical illusion sort of thing that often times the brain can not see on the photo but only notices when looking at the drawing. I think it's because we 'buy' the photo as reality but perceive a drawing as an artist's impression of it. Bottom line is to throw all the mathematical and academic drawing principles out and simply do whatever it takes to make it look right.

I'm doing it now on a plane cutaway. The photo I started with is very sexy indeed but the general tracing of it looked goofy as hell.

Edited by Tom Johnson, 21 September 2009 - 22:55.


#2487 Bonde

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 13:44

I'm happy to report that an amateur such as myself uses pretty much the same methods as the two pros describe above - perhaps there really is no other way that works well, if you're not using CAD or computer rendering. I try to construct a three-point perspective these days, in my yuof I merely did it all by eye, which obviously didn't work well for me. I suppose If I weren't so lazy my style could improve...I am considering 3D CAD modeling a simple outline of body, chassis and wheels, printing a rough and perspective grid from that and then continuing by hand from there - does anyone here have experiece with that approach?

As the pros said, a photo-based perspective can look all wrong on the actual drawing, so easing or incresing the perspective may be necessary (one day I'll learn how to do it properly...)

IMO, isometric is fine for exploded view parts catalogues, but as the pros also said, an isometric drawing appears 'twisted' to the eye.

BTW, Thanks to Tony and Ibsen for the 792. I also remember it being lighter and greener rather than bluer...

Marc: I'll see if I can find a coulour version of Grac'es/ETAI'a RS01.

#2488 elno

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 15:21

thank you very much Tom, Tony and Bonde for your very detailed responses!

@Tom, i confess i have some difficulties to imagine what a x/y/z perspective grid looks like ... if you have an illustration of it, i will be very interested !






#2489 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 16:57

thank you very much Tom, Tony and Bonde for your very detailed responses!

@Tom, i confess i have some difficulties to imagine what a x/y/z perspective grid looks like ... if you have an illustration of it, i will be very interested !


You can buy printed perspective grids. Alansart mentioned them, way back in this thread - if it wasn't Alan, sorry! - and I found one in my local art shop recently and bought it, a pack of about 30, A2 size, just out of interest. I suppose you could draw a car on such a grid, but I think they are much more use for boxy things like fridges, computers and, er...boxes!, and buildings, which is what the cover artwork shows. I'd scan it now, but it's buried in my plan chest, and the plan chest is buried...

I think what Tom means is that when you have your photograph, showing the car (or any subject) from the angle you want, you can work out your three vanishing points from various points on the photo. In fact, for a car, two is probably all you need, but the one you don't need is not always the same one! It depends on your viewpoint, sometimes one vanishing point is so far away that all the lines in that direction are, to all intents and purposes, parallel, so you can ignore perspective in that instance. It is not impossible to draw an object that looks fine using just one vanishing point, but two is by far the most common.

I'll see if I can find some scanable images to illustrate the point. Don't hold your breath...

Tom, correct about the strange anomalies you get in photos, that you cannot see until you start to draw over them. Assuming a good camera lens, with the minimum of distortion, especially barrel, it is surprising how much you have to tweek the outline, or the wheel elipses (especially the wheel/tyre elipses, I've just remembered!) to get a drawing that doesn't look odd!

I bought a 24mm-120mm Nikkor zoom once, thinking it would be a help, rather than having to carry three lenses up a ladder or onto a handy roof, and change lenses as the rain started to fall, the sun started to set or your fingers were numb with cold and your heart was pumping with effort and panic...Did you think it was fun, elno? Did you? But when I did some test shots, it was money-back time, the barrel distortion was horrendous. A 28mm-85mm f3.5-4.5 was much better in that respect. But I would still use a fixed lens by choice. A new Nikkor 24mm-70mm f2.8 may be the answer, I haven't checked.

Edited by Tony Matthews, 22 September 2009 - 21:24.


#2490 elno

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 20:37

thanks a lot Tony for all theses precisions !! :clap:

Edited by elno, 22 September 2009 - 20:46.


#2491 Tom Johnson

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 22:10

thank you very much Tom, Tony and Bonde for your very detailed responses!

@Tom, i confess i have some difficulties to imagine what a x/y/z perspective grid looks like ... if you have an illustration of it, i will be very interested !


Here's an example of the x/y/z axis grid in action for a plane. x=longitudinal lines, y=lateral and z is all the perfectly vertical lines. The photo was loaded into Adobe Illustrator and the red lines you see are the basis for the grid. You must have knowledge of your subject before the grid can be built. In the case of this particular plane, 4 separate grids had to be constructed. Grid #1 was for the fuselage. Grid #2 was for the RH wing (the wing tilts up 4.5 degrees in relation to the fuselage for dihedral and tilts back 1 degree for angle of incidence. Grid #3 is for the engine since the engine is tilted in relation to the fuselage to offset torque and make the plane fly better. Grid #4 was for the LH wing.

The computer works very well for this procedure for two reasons. I have four different grids going on and each grid is given its own layer. Only the grid that is needed is activated (made visible) and the other ones are hidden until needed. I used to do this with the grids drawn on separate pieces of mylar and it got very tedious and time consuming switching between them and constantly reregistering them under the layout. The second reason is the location of the vanishing points. In the case of this plane they all are well off the confines of the drawing layout. With the computer, once any two parallel lines within one of the axis are extended out to find the vanishing points, I can just copy a line and swing the one end opposite the vanishing point and start building,.... sorry , drawing the plane.

http://img22.imagesh...v7layoutmap.jpg

Edited by Tom Johnson, 22 September 2009 - 22:46.


#2492 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 07:46

I found that a lens of about 85mm on a 35mm camera was probably the best, but often a 50mm was all you could use, as it can be difficult to get sufficiently far away from the vehicle to use an 85mm-odd and just fill the frame..... Certainly, starting with a photograph from about the right angle and distance is a huge help, saving a lot of time and tension, and you can add the perspective lines on top of the outline.


Funnily enough, many was the time when I was at the top of the open staircase leading down in to the car build area in Poole that I thought that the perspective of some of your later Penske Champcar cutaways was the same as that view. Is that where you were shooting from?

Nigel

#2493 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 13:03

The stairs weren't there until quite late Nigel, I had to use a two-piece ladder, one of Penske Cars' own, and lean it up against the wall, climb up as far as I could, turn to face the car, deal with the camera and two linked flash guns, the heels of my shoes hooked over a rung. Talk about a knee-trembler! I used to worry about dropping things, falling on someone, or the foot of the ladder shooting across the floor. All good fun... And tying a dangling tube-light out of the way... In fact the stairs were not much good, as the general layout was changed slightly, and the cars were not in the right position for the sort of shot I needed.

Edited by Tony Matthews, 23 September 2009 - 22:04.


#2494 elno

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 19:11

@Tom: a Big THANKS for the grid and the explanations !! :kiss:

#2495 macoran

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 21:29

This is all I kept from a Jean Jacques François interview in a magazine.
Some "how to" sketches.
Posted Image

#2496 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 22:09

http://img22.imagesh...v7layoutmap.jpg

Fascinating, Tom, and there is your virtually redundant vanishing point, off to the right, finally the lines meeting about three parsecs away. The parsec in this case being a measure of distance, not, as Han Solo thought, of time.

Thanks Marc, very nice sketches, c'est vrai!

Edited to say that there is an infinite number of vanishing points, probably the best place to see a lot of them is in comic book art, and in the video game 'Descent', once you understand the principal you see them everywhere. Lie back in your bed and work out where the vanishing point is for your bedroom walls. It's right above your head! Then for your ceiling - that is beyond your feet. I see them all the time, I was born seeing vanishing points, and eventually, I shall become one...

Edited by Tony Matthews, 26 September 2009 - 08:58.


#2497 elno

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 12:42

Very interesting sketches, thank you Marc !

the interview seems interesting too; i am going to see if i can find it by means of internet;
I see on the image that this article have been published in the "automobile historique" magazine
the first issue of this magazine was published at the beginning of 2000 and the last at the end of 2005.
have you some more information about this article which help me to find the right issue from which it was published ?



#2498 macoran

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 20:49

Very interesting sketches, thank you Marc !

the interview seems interesting too; i am going to see if i can find it by means of internet;
I see on the image that this article have been published in the "automobile historique" magazine
the first issue of this magazine was published at the beginning of 2000 and the last at the end of 2005.
have you some more information about this article which help me to find the right issue from which it was published ?


Elno, you are in luck, and you won’t have to roam internet to find the J.J.François story which is indeed from an Automobile Historique.
Because I have a friend who has the same collection of cutaways that I have.
I know because whenever a magazine came out with “good stuff” in it, I always bought two copies.
The people in the shops knew, because I had told them from early on that the second copy was for “my friend”.
This friend of mine is much more orderly than I am, and I know that he surely has the whole article intact.
I’ll ask Jon to look it up and scan it, have a bit of patience.
Meanwhile. Enjoy Vic Berris’ Lotus 79 published in Autocar, and later ”blinged up “ in Autosprint.
Posted Image Posted Image


#2499 elno

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 19:23

it is very nice , Marc ... big thanks to you and your friend !

and big thanks to Lotus too !

one question about lotus cutaways: the wheels seems strange to my eyes; i see that the major axes of the ellipses representing the wheels are vertical... ... should it not be horizontal rather
as it is a top view ? thanks for your response.





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#2500 macoran

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 19:42

Elno, I think Vic Berris drew the 79 nose-down, and that the magazine peeps printed it nose-up.
I base my nose-down theory on the stance of Vic's signature, I think it to be a right-handed signature, and it looks
incorrectly angled . But, people with more knowledge than me may be able to give a more definite conclusion.
I'll just add that this is only the second cutaway I have seen by Vic with a signature, rather than his name in "printed capital letters".

I just walked past the mirror in the hall, and looking into the realms of cutawayland, I think I saw Jon getting his scanner ready.