44 replies to this topic

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

Has anyone got any links to estimates of the various F1 teams' budgets for 2005? I'm particiularly interested in Renault, McLaren, Ferrari and Toyota.

Thanks!

[carbonfibre]

I havent got the numbers but my guess is:

From high to low:

Toyota
Ferrari / McLaren
Renault

[KWSN - DSM]

Toyota Usd 500 million
Honda Usd 500 million
Honda light Usd 150 million
BMW Usd 400 million
Ferrari Usd 300 million
McLaren Usd 300 million
Renault Usd 300 million
Red Bull Usd 250 million
Williams Usd 200 million
Tor Rosso Usd 150 million
Midland Usd 150 million

[WHITE]

Can we trust on what they say they spend ?
What do they consider to be an expenditure and what an investment ?

[Chubby_Deuce]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
Toyota Usd 500 million
Honda Usd 500 million
Honda light Usd 150 million
BMW Usd 400 million
Ferrari Usd 300 million
McLaren Usd 300 million
Renault Usd 300 million
Red Bull Usd 250 million
Williams Usd 200 million
Tor Rosso Usd 150 million
Midland Usd 150 million

I don't recall seeing 'Tor Rosso' race last year.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Chubby_Deuce


I don't recall seeing 'Tor Rosso' race last year.

My bad I am giving 2006 numbers.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
Toyota Usd 500 million
Honda Usd 500 million
Honda light Usd 150 million
BMW Usd 400 million
Ferrari Usd 300 million
McLaren Usd 300 million
Renault Usd 300 million
Red Bull Usd 250 million
Williams Usd 200 million
Tor Rosso Usd 150 million
Midland Usd 150 million

Thanks - what's the source?

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk


Thanks - what's the source?

Purely speculative, based on what a numbr of media outlets quote as "knowledge".

Personally I do not think that a teams budget is a measurable parameter, as the intertwinement between team, engine manufacturer, tire manufacturer, other manufacturers, sponsorship to team, sponsorship brought by driver, pointsscoring seasons before equalling an x amount payment from the coffers of FOM.

We can have general ideas as to which team spend the most, but as far as I have seen on this and other boards, posters mostly overinflate the dislikes among teams, and underinflate the likes among the teams.

I presume that we can agree that Minardi was always running on a small budget, and that Jordan had their ups and downs, that Sauber were pretty well funded for a privateer effort, and that of the BIG teams Williams have most likely been the least funded through the years.

I have no means of quantifying the difference between BAR, Honda, Ferrari, Toyota, McLaren, Renault. And think that any list will most likely br graded according to which teams you like and dislike the most.

It seems from reading on the various internet media that Toyota is thought to be spending upwards to Usd 500 million in 2006. It is obvious (at least to me) that Aguri Super F1 is a Honda "B" team, invented to give Sato a continued existence in F1, and that is not a small shop they are setting up there. So I think that Honda will be spending at least as much as Toyota.

[V10 Fireworks]

On a side note it's interesting how everyone is always clamouring for a "big" F1 with six (+ two) works teams, yet now these teams are there they ignore most of them and each poster selectively talks of an arbitrary two or three of them only in discussions as to the "winners", such as where Schumi might go.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk


Thanks - what's the source?

His arse.

But that's probably about as accurate as anywhere else.

On a side note it's interesting how everyone is always clamouring for a "big" F1 with six (+ two) works teams, yet now these teams are there they ignore most of them and each poster selectively talks of an arbitrary two or three of them only in discussions as to the "winners", such as where Schumi might go

We are? That's the exact opposite of what I'm clamouring for, mainly because the result 2 years later is this years WRC with 2 works teams and basically no-one else.

And only 6 full time drivers.

[tojack]

According to Business F1 the estimated figures spent by the car manufacturer in 2005 were

Honda $560 million
Mercedes $236 million
Toyota $212 million
BMW $160 million
Renault $113 million
Ferrari $10 million (Vodafone and Marlboro provide the real budget)

[MarkWRX]

Those are all public companies, so you can examine their financial statements and get an idea of how much is spent.

If you really wanted to, I suspect you could purchase one share of each company's stock and then, as a shareholder, get in touch with the company and ask them for the number.

I think Business F1 has a good idea. F1 Racing also makes a guesstimate each year.

Mark

[metz]

I have the detailed budgets for 2005.
Does anyone have the numbers for 2006?

[Ross Stonefeld]

We dont know what the 2006 sponsors are...



The Honda figure stonewalled me. Half a billion and the most attention they got was when they were banned...

[Mox]

Originally posted by metz
I have the detailed budgets for 2005.

I'd love to see that.

[Riker!]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
We dont know what the 2006 sponsors are...



The Honda figure stonewalled me. Half a billion and the most attention they got was when they were banned...

A lot of that money was also when they brought the team out. But yeah your right a lot of cash for nothing really much.

[Pep]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld

The Honda figure stonewalled me. Half a billion and the most attention they got was when they were banned...

They bought all the shares they didn't own from the BAR team.

[metz]

Originally posted by Mox


I'd love to see that.

Here it is...


F1 Budgets for 2005

try http://www.sportnetw...i=40811&t=40811

Here is the copy/paste from the page:

Research and development

1. McLaren $25.50m
2. Toyota $25.10m
3. Williams $22.60m
4. Ferrari $22.40m
5. Renault $18.70m
6. Sauber $18.06
7. BAR $17.40m
8. Red Bull $11.40m
9. Jordan $7.50m
10. Minardi $7.02

Wind Tunnel

1. Ferrari $11.25m
2. McLaren $9.96m
3. Williams $9.76m
4. Toyota $8.95m
5. Sauber $8.78m
6. BAR $7.80m
7. Renault $6.18m
8. Red Bull $3.95m
9. Jordan $3.20m
10. Minardi $0.38m

Manufacture

1. Toyota $3.40m
2. Ferrari $3.20m
3. McLaren $2.70m
4. BAR $2.40
5. Williams $2.25m
6. Sauber $1.70m
7. Renault $1.62m
8. Red Bull $1.45m
9. Minardi $0.75m
10. Jordan $0.64m

Engines

1. Toyota $192.50m
2. BAR (Honda) $181.50m
3. Williams (BMW) $169.00m
4. Ferrari $165.00m
5. McLaren (Mercedes Benz) $144.00m
6. Renault $121.00m
7. Red Bull (Cosworth) $66.00m
8. Sauber (Ferrari) $28.00m
9. Jordan (Toyota) $10.50m
10. Minardi (Cosworth) $10.00m

Travel and Accomodation

1. Ferrari $17.61m
2. Toyota $12.72m
3. McLaren $11.74m
4. Williams $9.10m
5. BAR $7.72m
6. Renault $7.33m
7. Sauber $6.65m
8. Red Bull $4.90m
9. Jordan $4.16m
10. Minardi $0.95m

Testing

1. McLaren $64.96m
2. Williams $63.04m
3. Ferrari $62.72m
4. BAR $56.64m
5. Toyota $53.06m
6. Renault $28.40m
7. Sauber $20.00m
8. Red Bull $4.88m
9. Jordan $4.20m
10. Minardi $1.78m

Racing

1. Ferrari $35.85m
2. Toyota $28.30m
3. Williams $26.16m
4. McLaren $24.13m
5. Renault $23.90m
6. Sauber $22.89m
7. BAR $22.14m
8. Jordan $20.33m
9. Red Bull $18.59m
10. Minardi $9.77m

Team Salary

1. Ferrari $48.30m
2. Toyota $44.40m
3. McLaren $36.12m
4. Williams $35.64m
5. Renault $34.20m
6. BAR $33.30m
7. Sauber $32.40m
8. Red Bull $26.28m
9. Jordan $15.40m
10. Minardi $7.60m

Driver Salary

1. Ferrari $51.00m
2. McLaren $31.00m
3. Toyota $24.00m
4. Renault $11.00m
5- BAR $8.00m
5- Williams $8.00m
7. Sauber $4.00m
8. Red Bull $3.00m
9. Minardi $0.60m
10. Jordan $0.50m

Corporate Entertainment

1. Williams $10.04
2. Ferrari $8.91
3. McLaren $8.24
4. BAR $6.69
5. Renault $6.21
6. Toyota $5.76
7. Sauber $3.96
8. Red Bull $2.59
9. Jordan $1.35
10. Minardi $0.40


Total Expenditure

1. Ferrari $426.24
2. Toyota $397.21
3. McLaren $359.33
4. Williams $355.59
5. BAR $343.59
6. Renault $258.54
7. Sauber $146.44
8. Red Bull $143.04
9. Jordan $67.78
10. Minardi $39.25


Individual Driver Salaries

1. M. Schumacher $42m
2. K. Raikkonen $19m
3. R. Schumacher $18m
4. JP. Montoya $12m
5. R. Barrichello $9m
6- J. Button $7m
6- F. Alonso $7m
6- J. Trulli $7m
9. M. Webber $6m
10. G. Fisichella $4m
11- J. Villeneuve $3m
11- C. Klien $3m
13. N. Heidfeld $2m
14- T. Sato $1m
14- F. Massa $1m

[KWSN - DSM]

These numbers are equally speculative to all others.

[Jhope]

Those exact numbers appeared in F1 Racing sometime last year. They are based on 2004 budgets. But, being from F1 Racing, I would take those with a grain of salt.

[KWSN - DSM]

F1 racing mean more than a grain.

[metz]

These numbers are originaly from BusinessF1 one year ago.
You can trash them all you want but I have found nothing better anywhere.

I'm still looking for 2006. Anyone?

[Melbourne Park]

Thanks for those figures. They are very interesting. It should be possable to guesstimate team changes on costs, such as with driver changes, personnel changes, etc etc. Like with Williams, they would have less spent by BMW and will have to pay as much for the Cosworth as jag did, therefore a 60 odd million difference.

Originally posted by metz


Here it is...


F1 Budgets for 2005

try http://www.sportnetw...i=40811&t=40811

Here is the copy/paste from the page:

Research and development
...
Wind Tunnel
...

Manufacture
...
Engines
...
Travel and Accomodation
...
Testing
...
Racing
...
Team Salary
...
Driver Salary
...
Corporate Entertainment

...

Total Expenditure

1. Ferrari $426.24
2. Toyota $397.21
3. McLaren $359.33
4. Williams $355.59
5. BAR $343.59
6. Renault $258.54
7. Sauber $146.44
8. Red Bull $143.04
9. Jordan $67.78
10. Minardi $39.25


Individual Driver Salaries
...

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Thanks for those figures. They are very interesting. It should be possable to guesstimate team changes on costs, such as with driver changes, personnel changes, etc etc. Like with Williams, they would have less spent by BMW and will have to pay as much for the Cosworth as jag did, therefore a 60 odd million difference.

You don't actually have to quote a 3 page post for a 2 line reply ;)

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by MarkWRX
Those are all public companies, so you can examine their financial statements and get an idea of how much is spent.

The sad truth is, you can't.

Financial Statements are not designed to yield specific figures like how much BMW, for example, has spent on F1.

[kNt]

Originally posted by metz
These numbers are originaly from BusinessF1 one year ago.
You can trash them all you want but I have found nothing better anywhere.

I'm still looking for 2006. Anyone?

Just writing down a lot of Numbers isn't going to make it more precise. Just with a little thought you can see that Sauber spending more on testing than RedBull whilst testing less than RB isn't really possible.
Plus RB expending so few on "Corporate Entertainement" and Traveling while they have a vast Motorhome.

And for Sauber Peter Sauber told publicly on TV that his Budget was well below 100M $.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by kNt

Just writing down a lot of Numbers isn't going to make it more precise. Just with a little thought you can see that Sauber spending more on testing than RedBull whilst testing less than RB isn't really possible.
Plus RB expending so few on "Corporate Entertainement" and Traveling while they have a vast Motorhome.

And for Sauber Peter Sauber told publicly on TV that his Budget was well below 100M $.

But Sauber employed in 2005 I recall over 350 people, and a whole lot of extra outsourced resources. Such endeavour indicates a higher figure than 100 million.

Maybe Peter S. was referring to a different type of budget.

[kNt]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


But Sauber employed in 2005 I recall over 350 people, and a whole lot of extra outsourced resources. Such endeavour indicates a higher figure than 100 million.

Maybe Peter S. was referring to a different type of budget.

Afaik there were less than 300, since BMW are now talking about expanding beyond 300 people. The one thing that would be possible that it was the Budget without the engine, but I doubt that.

[cfdt]

Originally posted by kNt

Just with a little thought you can see that Sauber spending more on testing than RedBull whilst testing less than RB isn't really possible.

Why? Depends where you test, how many cars you take etc. Red Bull for example aren't too far from Silverstone, making testing there probably considerably cheaper for them than for Sauber. Running a one car straight line aero test for 4 days at an airfield is quite possibly cheaper than a 3 car 2 day test at Barcelona. I don't know if it's included in the figures but how many different tyres you use, parts you test etc. may also bump up the figure.

[HeirToTheStars]

I think this will help

http://www.businessf...-Prix-Intro.htm

[Talisman]

Originally posted by Riker!


A lot of that money was also when they brought the team out. But yeah your right a lot of cash for nothing really much.

Actually the final transfer of the remaining 55-60% of the BAR team ownership from BAT to Honda was for a symbolic amount of cash, agreed when Honda bought its original 40-45% stake.

I believe Honda spent close to half a billion over 2005 in order to improve the infrastructure at Brackley to equal that of the other teams, including a new windtunnel etc. Needless to say this will be a one off. I suspect that if BMW included the amount of cash required to bring Hinwil up to scratch in their operating budget the figure wouldn't be that far off that of Honda.

[Nathan]

According to Business F1 the estimated figures spent by the car manufacturer in 2005 were

Honda $560 million
Mercedes $236 million
Toyota $212 million

Does anybody know of a link providing the information listed here?

Would Honda's $560-million budget be from things such as the engine development costs, Honda's dollars going to BAR, buying the reamining 55% of the team from BAT, setting up Aguri, paying Aguri's bond, Jenson's Williams buyout and all the improvements at the factory?

[kNt]

Originally posted by cfdt


Why? Depends where you test, how many cars you take etc. Red Bull for example aren't too far from Silverstone, making testing there probably considerably cheaper for them than for Sauber. Running a one car straight line aero test for 4 days at an airfield is quite possibly cheaper than a 3 car 2 day test at Barcelona. I don't know if it's included in the figures but how many different tyres you use, parts you test etc. may also bump up the figure.

From January First to July 31 these Teams did that manny km according to F1total.com:

7. Red Bull Racing 21.169
8. Sauber 14.016


Now there are a lot of things to take into account with expenses, like traveling etc. but they all depend indirectly on the amount you test, most even directly (use of engines, tyres, etc.).

So with RedBull doing 50% more testing than Sauber they can hardly spend less than Sauber, and really can't spend just 25%.

[Timstr11]

Originally posted by Nathan


Does anybody know of a link providing the information listed here?

Would Honda's $560-million budget be from things such as the engine development costs, Honda's dollars going to BAR, buying the reamining 55% of the team from BAT, setting up Aguri, paying Aguri's bond, Jenson's Williams buyout and all the improvements at the factory?

New wind tunnel + Jenson money + sale BAT stake to Honda inflated the budget.
(The gross assets of BAR Honda GP were £24 million at 30 September 2005. - bat.com)

[howardt]

I get the feeling that F1 team budgets are a little bit like Hollywood film budgets.

If any producer in hollywood actually spent $100m on making a film they'd never work again. But they like to pretend that it costs that much so that the press can shout about the $100m blockbuster. And they can use this to justify charging high prices, so it increases their revenue.

In F1, if I was making a pitch to a major sponsor I'd tell 'em that the team budget for the year was hundreds of millions - billions if I thought I could get away with it - just to get the message across that F1 is an expensive game, so you'll have to give us more than your measly $30m sponsorship offer cos that's but a drop in the ocean to big fish like us.



Besides, if you employed 2 good accountants, gave them full access to the books and asked one for a high number and the other for a low number, they would be able to come back with *very* different answers. It depends what you count.

[WACKO]

Did anyone get their hands on the March issue of F1 Racing magazine? It contains the current figures (over season 05, the others were over 04).

[F1Champion]

Its really hard to think that shareholders let the car manufacturers spend these wild amounts on F1 when they can either become extra dividends or be reinvested in the company.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

F1 Racing printed a short story in the April issue where Toyota boss John Howett refuted the figures F1 Racing had attributed to them for 2005 as being too high.

[WACKO]

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk
F1 Racing printed a short story in the April issue where Toyota boss John Howett refuted the figures F1 Racing had attributed to them for 2005 as being too high.

Can anyone post the figures published in March?

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by F1Champion
Its really hard to think that shareholders let the car manufacturers spend these wild amounts on F1 when they can either become extra dividends or be reinvested in the company.

What about this quote:

U.S. automakers have linked much of their woes to massive "legacy costs" - or generations of generous benefit packages to its unionized employees. Industry experts say General Motors' health-care and pension expenses amount to roughly $2,000 more per vehicle than Toyota's.

If Toyota spent $200 million on their F1 program (he figure which Toyota say is too high) , and Toyota sell 9 million cars this year, that's $22 per car. That 22 bucks is chicken sh*t compared to GM's employee benefit per car cost. And if they change the demographic downwards, that could be worth several million sales per year in a few years. It's likely very cheap really ... and there are other benefits as well.

[D. Heimgartner]

Who gives a **** about budgets, anyways. All the F1 teams should abandone this shitty joke of a series and join ALMS!!!



















Forza Don Panox!!!!

[Alfisti]

Man, half a billion dollars is a lot Civics.

[kNt]

Actually it might be not enough to develop one according to claims by car manufacturers.

[Paco]

The difficulty is in differentiating racing costs / development costs / infracture costs and entertainment costs.

Every team diverts the expenses differently and some of the costs can be fronted directly by sponsors where other teams may choose to have everything directly off their books.

It's my opinion, there is no way BusinessF1 or any other mag can even remotely estimate what the costs are of running a team. Either for manufacturers or privateers.

I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota or Honda even know internally. Many of the costs are probably shared amoung their F1, road division, R&D of differing groups etc. that it's probably impossible to pen an exact number.

Either way, it's high. Very high.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Paco
... I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota or Honda even know internally. Many of the costs are probably shared amoung their F1, road division, R&D of differing groups etc. that it's probably impossible to pen an exact number.

Either way, it's high. Very high.

They would know, but I suspect how they cut the pie up would be debatable. For instance Toyota has said one of the main reasons they are in F1 is to communicate to their business partners how they operate. Such improvements to suppliers could have a huge difference in costs - far more than $22 alone. But on the other hand, F1 is not a cheap vehicle to communicate about such things. Marketing obvisously benefits, and I presume Marketing would a majority share of the F1 costs. Mercedes saw a 40% increase in the sales of silver cars after they started up with McLaren and the silver arrow McLaren cars. That's was a very simple, and impressive, score for the market penetration of F1 into a luxury and mature buyer demographic. (Since then however, I get the impression that there are more silver cars in every brand - was the increase in silver really due to the none fade final clear coatings, the visibility, reflective benefits and also dirty silver car doesn't show the dirt?)

The F1 teams would apply the group's average cost of capital contributed to the operation. The returns on that capital would be different to those enjoyed by profit centres, but I imagine that different company areas would pick up their share of that budget, such as marketing and manufacturing etc. I wonder where corporate prestige pays it's accounts?

But with Toyota, they have spent much other capital on their hybrid Synergy Drive cars, the Prius is sold at a loss of around $US10,000. That cost per car makes F1's $22 per car seem cheap (and who knows that may really be after tax and less sponsors more like $5 per car). And a VW Polo diesel uses less fuel. But the Prius is at the other end of the automotive spectrum, and its also I suspect attractive to (besides the Greens) the older Toyota demographic. Maybe its more a Chinese blanace thing: the Yin and the Yang?