176 replies to this topic

[D-Type]

Very interesting picture ! When you click on it , it gets bigger.

Well, he has used the "thumbnail" option on Imageshack. At one time it was suggested as the preferred option but the idea seems to have gone by the board. It takes less time to load than a full picture making life farr better for those with a slow internet connection.

[fw07c]

Here is the Vanwall picture showing VW4 and VW8



I will try to enlarge if I can

[/IMG]

Please click on above

Here is the photograph in question which is copyright of Ferret Fotographics thanks Ted Walker for your permission.

As you can see it shows Vanwall VW4 and VW8 being prepared for a race but which one?

Edited by fw07c, 31 March 2010 - 13:22.

[fw07c]

Vanwall VW8 is special as it was the only lightweight chassis, ie 20 swg instead of 18 swg, which was raced once at 1957 Reims .

Edited by fw07c, 31 March 2010 - 13:10.

[Allan Lupton]

That photo shows two fuel tanks with numbers painted on them. In my ignorance I can ask if it is generally accepted that no fuel tank was ever fitted to a chassis other than that which had the same number as painted on the tank?

No answer to this so far, although, for my money, painted numbers on easily demountable parts seem not to be real evidence.
If it is at a race meeting, that photo must have been taken in 1957 as the pannier fuel tanks used in long races would not have been needed for Avgas (and shorter races anyway) in 1958.

[Doug Nye]

Vanwall tanks and body panels were commonly numbered in order to avoid confusion in the workshops, especially at race circuits, when several cars were stripped down at once. Parts such as tanks and body panels were carefully tailored to their own individual chassis frames. The definitive chassis number was stamped on a tiny rectangular plaque attached to the top front frame, and a corresponding number was painted onto the vertical closing panel on the front of the headrest, the one with those distinctive large-diameter swaged holes behind the driver's head. This shows up in many photographs. The numbers on the tanks were normally definitive. If two numbers appeared on the same tank it indicated - I should imagine - that the mechanics had discovered it could be attached easily to both of those frames. I suspect this would have been much more by luck than judgement. If I find the time I'll check the chassis logs.

DCN

[Allan Lupton]

Thanks, Doug.
I have no recollection of the Vanwall numbers being known to the public at the time, but they seem to be commonly used now, unlike the numbers of 250Fs which were on the dashboard plate on display, so were known (but their common use was confined to Jenks' writings).

[fw07c]

Does anyone know if Vanwall VW8 ever appeared in at a race meeting in 1957 or 1958? Apart from 1957 Reims Grand Prix.

[David McKinney]

... unlike the numbers of 250Fs which were on the dashboard plate on display, so were known

Though of course the number would not necessarily be on the same dashboard at the next meeting

[fw07c]

It is interesting that Tony Vandervell bought a Maserati 250F with an idea of fitting a Vanwall engine in it. Which would have been interesting to say the least.

[David McKinney]

It is interesting that Tony Vandervell bought a Maserati 250F with an idea of fitting a Vanwall engine in it

He bought a 250F for study purposes, but I doubt if there was ever any intention of putting a Vanwall engine in it. He already had his own F1 car at the time

[RWB]

He bought a 250F for study purposes, but I doubt if there was ever any intention of putting a Vanwall engine in it. He already had his own F1 car at the time

It has been reported that letters from Vandervell show that the engine from Bira's 2504 was put into the 250F and it was driven in period. Also, noted in the Goodwood FoS progtramme a few years ago, "was driven by Moss, Hawthorn, Collins and Richardson, occasionally with Vanwall engines and body".

[David McKinney]

It has been reported that letters from Vandervell show that the engine from Bira's 2504 was put into the 250F and it was driven in period

The engine of Bira's 250F was put into the Owen Organisation 250F, and driven in period

Also, noted in the Goodwood FoS progtramme a few years ago, "was driven by Moss, Hawthorn, Collins and Richardson, occasionally with Vanwall engines and body".

That surprises me. What year FoS programme?
(Unless you're talking about an advertisement, which is quite a different thing)

[fw07c]

If I find the time I'll check the chassis logs.

DCN

Hope you find time to answer this riddle.

Many Thanks

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Dear RWB,

I'm afraid you have put together a few erroneous bits of information and made an unfortunate assumption. David is correct. It is a long story but the guts of it is the Bira motor was but into the Ownen car, not the Vanwall chassis.

A motorless rolling chassis was purchased from Maserati by G. A. Vandervell for study purposes. It was stripped and each part was meticulously weighed and photographed. It remained that way untill the Vandervell works was closed. A purchaser of the works took an interest in the remains and a replica was completed in 1975-76. As the replica was completed in the Midlands, it resembles the 250F at Donington at the time, car 2515.

In more recent times a "dealer" claimed he had seen Vanwall letters saying the motorless chassis, was run in period.
The intent of this claim was intended to ad substance to this car, which at best is a replica containing a chassis of historical interest. For anyone to make a claim that the car was A/ run in period by Vandervell, or worse B/ driven by some name drivers is, beyond my comprehension.

I certainly hope the new owners of the replica did not purchase the car with any thought that the information bantered about was correct.

Unfortunately I have seen a website document reporting on the acquisition by the new owners at Franschhoek Museum. Translated, it goes something like this. "The Vanwall team at the time were still in the process of building their own cars and used this car to compete in races. The Maserati was painted green. Sir Stirling Moss was one of the drivers...."

Unbelieveable!

[RWB]

Dear Barrie
Your reply confirms exactly what I had always understood. Thank you for nailing that one.

David - the quote was not from an advert but from the entry descriptions in the 2006 FoS programme. The fitting of Vanwall body and engines somehow seems even less likely than the 250F engine story.

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Fangio too.

The story just keeps getting better.
According to this South African website, as well as Moss and Hawthorn, Fangio was also a driver of this ficticious 2513 car.

http://www.wbmk.co.za/node/4771

I have since dug out a copy of the 2006 Goodwood FoS program and sure enough RWB, there it is in print. "....and was driven by Moss, Hawthorn, Collins and Richardson, occasionally with Vanwall engines and body."

I find this kind of statement embarrising to me as a historian. It makes a mockery of what we try to achieve here in this forum.

Regards,
Barrie

[fw07c]

He bought a 250F for study purposes, but I doubt if there was ever any intention of putting a Vanwall engine in it. He already had his own F1 car at the time

To quote from "Vanwall" by Denis Jenkinson and Cyril Posthumus

"Another little project that was still-born concerned the 250F Maserati chassis he purchased to investigation at the end of 1954. After the success the Owen modified
250F Maserati at Silverstoe, the `old man' had looked at his own Vanwall and said to Fox`the thing's not much good, could not keep up with those Maseratis. So he suggested that
a Vanwall engine be offered up to the Maserati chassis.It was not complete, so missing parts were ordered, but they found that since buying their chassis a new and improved
rear end had been designed, incorporating a five speed gearbox instead of their four speed gearbox. The idea was dropped."

So the idea was there but not the application.

[dretceterini]

Fangio too.

The story just keeps getting better.
According to this South African website, as well as Moss and Hawthorn, Fangio was also a driver of this ficticious 2513 car.

http://www.wbmk.co.za/node/4771

I have since dug out a copy of the 2006 Goodwood FoS program and sure enough RWB, there it is in print. "....and was driven by Moss, Hawthorn, Collins and Richardson, occasionally with Vanwall engines and body."

I find this kind of statement embarrising to me as a historian. It makes a mockery of what we try to achieve here in this forum.

Regards,
Barrie

Sad, but for many so called historians, it is more about marketing a car than letting people know the truth

[fw07c]

Doug
How detailed were the Vanwall chassis logs? Did they include spare cars? Also did these logs detail the private testing during the year?

Many thanks in anticipation

[fw07c]

[/IMG]

Please click on above

Here is the photograph in question which is copyright of Ferret Fotographics thanks Ted Walker for your permission.

As you can see it shows Vanwall VW4 and VW8 being prepared for a race but which one?

At last I have found another picture of Vanwall VW8 at Nurbergring from Louis Klemantaski book "The Vanwall Story". So it was probabe that VW8 was there as the spare car.

Edited by fw07c, 30 August 2010 - 13:01.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Does anyone know if ex Vanwall mechanic Derek Wootton is still with us , and perhaps where to find him , please ?

[Tim Murray]

Derek contributed to Michael Oliver's recent (2009) fine book Tales from the Toolbox. Michael may be able to supply contact details.

[Arjan de Roos]

And where are they now?:

VW1-4: broken up
VW5 --> 11: Collier Collection
VW6: Donington Collection
VW7: Donington Collection
VW8: ?
VW9: Show car (Donington Collection?)
VW10: Bernie Ecclestone
VW12: ?
VW14: Donington Collection

In the Donington Collection I saw a 1955 bodied car. Some state this is built up on VW12, is this correct?

[Bjorn Kjer]

THANK YOU TIM !

Anyone who knows about Vanwall transporters before 1954 ?

Edited by Bjørn Kjer, 09 March 2011 - 17:32.

[RWB]

And where are they now?:

VW1-4: broken up
VW5 --> 11: Collier Collection
VW6: Donington Collection
VW7: Donington Collection
VW8: ?
VW9: Show car (Donington Collection?)
VW10: Bernie Ecclestone
VW12: ?
VW14: Donington Collection

In the Donington Collection I saw a 1955 bodied car. Some state this is built up on VW12, is this correct?

Wasn't VW12 Lotus 18 chassis 901 which went to Chris Ashmore? Ed McDonough says the Donngton '55 car is VW2 reconstructed from original parts.

[Arjan de Roos]

Wasn't VW12 Lotus 18 chassis 901 which went to Chris Ashmore? Ed McDonough says the Donngton '55 car is VW2 reconstructed from original parts.

Thanks, so we have:

VW1-4: broken up
VW2: Donington Collection, reconstructed with 1955 body.
VW5 --> 11: Collier Collection
VW6: Donington Collection
VW7: Donington Collection
VW8: ?
VW9: Show car (Donington Collection?)
VW10: Bernie Ecclestone
VW12: Chris Ashmore, Lotus 18 chassis 901
VW14: Donington Collection

Not definite list.

[fw07c]

THANK YOU TIM !

Anyone who knows about Vanwall transporters before 1954 ?

Vandervell Products Ltd at first used a VP Ltd van to transport the Thinwall Special and a small Bedford van carrying spares and fitted out as a small workshop in 1951. In 1952 they converted a Bedford coach into a race car transporter, which was joined by a purpose built Bedford transporter in 1955 followed up by the 1957 Leyland Royal Tiger

The correct VP Ltd designation of the of Vanwall engined Lotus was VWL12