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Alfa Romeo Jankovits


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#1 Wolf

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 13:24

On another forum I'm member of this article was brought to my attention, and I ws very surprised to say the least... link The text is in Croatian, but pics are nice too.

I did a search on TNF looking for Jankovits (two brothers from Rijeka that built the car), but fund no matches...

Central-seat, rear-mid engined Alfa in pre-WWII doesn't sound too shabby, does it?

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#2 dmj

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 13:39

I also did the same research earlier today, with same result. A bit strange, as I am almost sure I posted something about that car a few years ago. BTW, car will be auctioned by Artcurial-Poulain le four at Retromobile.

#3 EDWARD FITZGERALD

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 00:02

Looks very like a car owned by Malcolm Templeton in N Ireland , many years ago , Ithink the car was sold before he died maybe ten years ago , will dig further .

#4 Wolf

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 00:14

Edward, the article says Colin Crabbe bought the car in '67 (New York) sold it to Templeton. The trail goes on from Neil Crabb to Phil Benett in Leeds. Next owner should be Nazario Bacchi (in Forli, where the car should be now). The text is from Goran Slavic, from Rijeka- Jankovic brothers made the car there (he has even traced Stuck's relatives who have lived for a while now in Rijeka- and have 'croatized' their name).

#5 Coogar

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 13:40

It certainly does seem to be the car that Malcolm Templeton had - less engine - in Ballymena. At the time, a number of us were invited to come along and guess what it might be.
I often wondered what had become of it.
The feeling at the time was that it could have been some sort of 'official' Alfa which never progressed beyond the design stage.
It certainly appeared to be well-engineered although the general feeling was that, with the driver sitting so far forward, it might have been quite difficult for him to know what the rear wheels were doing until after they had done it !
Something that looked very liked it also appeared in 'Motor Sport' during the fifties - when they used to run two pages of photographs as a centre spread - taking part in an airfield race/sprint.
Sadly, my old magazines were banished some years ago by 'er indoors......

#6 Wolf

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 13:57

Coogar, it was designed by two brothers who started the design in '34, and were given an insight into Ricart's designs whilst purchasing the chassis from him. Other than that I doubt they had any factory support (seeing Ricart himself didn't get much support for his project, which was cancelled and they bought a frame)- they had to settle for 6C 2300 engine instead of the engine they wanted to purchase. Even the coachwork was done in Rijeka (Lampo workshop). BTW, the first photo shows the car in initial, open-wheel configuration.

Aforementioned Bacchi has collected a lots of documents regarding the car, a well as Luigi Fusi who first hand recieved the story from Jankovic brothers).

P.S. Before anybody even gets the idea I became clever or knowledgeable overnight- let me reiterate I'm just translating bits and pieces from that article, written by Goran slavic.;)

#7 dmj

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 21:55

It is debatable what amount of support brothers got from Ricart or Alfa but it is certain that their first drawings quite preceeded any factory attempt to design a mid-engined car.

Jankovits Alfa isn't so obscure, even although more complete story only now seems more or less completed. In my humble collection of magazines I have three features about it. Don't have issues at hand but some pictures were published in a mid-seventies Quattroruote, then a full (or almost full) page in C&SC Lost and found section in late Nineties. Afterwards, in Car for connosieur magazine there was a short feature about it a few years ago, and my letter with more details in following issue...

At the moment more history is available in French at auction site, along with pictures of restored car in, IMHO, horribly wrong colour:

details

Actually, license for driving the car with communist red star, as showed in picture, proves that Slavic is wrong when stating that brothers left Rijeka before Partisans arrived, it obviously had to be afterwards, as they issued it!

#8 Wolf

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 22:09

Dmj- I cannot claim to be very familiar with history, but the year on that licence seems quite surprising... AFAIK, armed resistance in Croatia started on June 23rd 1941, wheres this permit has red star and the year is 1940?!?

#9 dmj

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 10:15

If you enlarge it you'll see it is 1945... A strange font indeed.

#10 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 19:05

Originally posted by dmj
It is debatable what amount of support brothers got from Ricart or Alfa but it is certain that their first drawings quite preceeded any factory attempt to design a mid-engined car.


The Jankowits Alfa was featured in November issue of Ruoteclassiche (I), and being drawn to consider it again (after the C&SC article mentioned), I also doubt of the amount of input from Ricart. Summarizing, as I'm in haste:

1) Ricart came to Alfa as late as 1936, and was first entrusted a two-stroke, Diesel V6 engine for aeronatical use. It's not before 1938 that Ricart became influential on Alfa overall (and specifically racing) design.

2) The original drawing show a very crude ladder type frame which has nothing to do with tappered, complex, 3-D frame of the 512 it's said it was inspired from. I cannot buy that even the first attempt fro the 512 would have been so much back as for frame design.

3) The article of Ruoteclassiche even evocates links with the 1941 Alfa 163 Sports car prototype, which, is, er, ridiculous.

At the end, I rated all that as PR spin aimed at raising the value of a car, so I'm not surprised it turns out for sale.

#11 dmj

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 20:01

Probably a lot of you had chance to see the car this year at Goodwood. In the meantime it got new name (Aerospider), new story (Jano instead of Ricart) and a new owner, very keen on having a car with posh name and Jano connection. So keen, actually, that later this year a book about car is said to be published.

It all very much reminds me of Asardo saga. I'm raising this thread to see if anyone else could now add more details about the car. I strongly disbelieve the myth that it was any kind of factory project but then, maybe someone knows more than I do.

#12 D-Type

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 20:15

Probably a lot of you had chance to see the car this year at Goodwood. In the meantime it got new name (Aerospider), new story (Jano instead of Ricart) and a new owner, very keen on having a car with posh name and Jano connection. So keen, actually, that later this year a book about car is said to be published.

It all very much reminds me of Asardo saga. I'm raising this thread to see if anyone else could now add more details about the car. I strongly disbelieve the myth that it was any kind of factory project but then, maybe someone knows more than I do.

Do you know who is writing the book?

#13 arttidesco

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 20:47

Probably a lot of you had chance to see the car this year at Goodwood. In the meantime it got new name (Aerospider), new story (Jano instead of Ricart) and a new owner, very keen on having a car with posh name and Jano connection. So keen, actually, that later this year a book about car is said to be published.

It all very much reminds me of Asardo saga. I'm raising this thread to see if anyone else could now add more details about the car. I strongly disbelieve the myth that it was any kind of factory project but then, maybe someone knows more than I do.


For those like me late to the party is this the car we are talking about also known as an Alfa Romeo 6C 2300 Jankovits in this second picture ?


I never heard of the Asardo before either obviously I am not a proper Alfista, thanks for bringing these to my attention :-)

#14 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 21:18

For those like me late to the party is this the car we are talking about also known as an Alfa Romeo 6C 2300 Jankovits in this second picture ?

That's certainly the car which was at Goodwood. There are some photos of it in the Goodwood thread. I didn't manage to get a decent shot of the car itself, but here's its engine:

Posted Image


#15 dmj

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 21:53

Yes, that is the car we're researching. Actually it doesn't have any racing history but I think it is an appropritate subject for this forum.

As for the book, unfortunately I don't have information who is writing it. It could actually be current German owner himself.

#16 D-Type

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 22:08

This explains the description in the Goodwood programme :

Developed in secret at Mussolini's request by Vittorio Jano, Gino and Oscar Jankovits, the "Aerospatiale2 was to have had a V12. Fitted with a 6C 2300 engine, Oscar drove it out of Italy in 1946, despite being shot at.


I did wonder why a car would be escaping from Italy. Escaping from Communist Yugoslavia (or Croatia) makes more sense, possibly into Italy.

#17 larryd

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 00:58

Gawd - it's 'ORRIBLE!!

And I always thought Malcolm Templeton had taste . . . . . .

 ;)


#18 dmj

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 06:55

It didn't look so bad prior to restoration, in red... :)
And yes, it was driven TO Italy.
I was curious if Jano connection appeared in Goodwood programme as well - knowing credibility of people in care of programme there it might be that some more evidence showed up that could confirm the Jano story. But I must admit that I still very much doubt it and until proven otherwise will consider this car a pure special (interesting one, due to early allocation of engine behind the driver) without any significant factory output.


#19 David McKinney

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 09:18

My Italian contacts assure me we can discount any involvement by Il Duce

I suspect - but don't hold me to it - that the project wasn't even thought up until after the War

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#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 12:27

A German owner?

Not the same bloke who has/had the Elfin ME5, is it?

That could explain a lot...

#21 David McKinney

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 12:33

Not the same bloke who has/had the Elfin ME5, is it?

No

#22 dmj

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 13:53

The name of current owner is Georg Gebhard. I don't know anything about him or any other cars he might have.



#23 arttidesco

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 16:00

My Italian contacts assure me we can discount any involvement by Il Duce

I suspect - but don't hold me to it - that the project wasn't even thought up until after the War


Herr Gebhard has a very low profile on Google until you enter his name with the word 'Alfa' :-)

Seems this car has been entered into Concours events with some extremely rare machinery especially from the 1930's and getting top billing in the publicity for the recent Brooklands Double 12 meeting, which makes me wonder about David's comments above, care to share your information publicly or privately ?

Edited by arttidesco, 21 July 2010 - 16:01.


#24 David McKinney

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 16:11

I've already shared as much as I know

There was a suggestion that the project wasn't started until 1946 or 1947, and another that the ooncept dates from even later than that

I shall happily withdraw such suggestions if we can see any period evidence of its existence, even in concept form, earlier than that :)

#25 arttidesco

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 17:18

Thanks David, any idea who was alleged to be behind the project ?

Looking at this page of other vehicles from the 1930's the thing that stands out is the continuous line of the 'Jankowitz Alfa' bodywork over the top of the wheels from front to rear seems well ahead of it's time and more reminiscent of the 1950 Le Monstre than anything I can think of pre WW2.

#26 dmj

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 18:47

Some period pics in this link. (if it doesn't work for non-members let me know and I'll repost the pictures one by one.

Italian license plates related to Fiume (today called Rijeka) certainly date it before 1945. when it became part of Yugoslavia.

Edited by dmj, 21 July 2010 - 18:48.


#27 David McKinney

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 22:11

Sound pretty conclusive, dmj

#28 arttidesco

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 23:07

Some period pics in this link. (if it doesn't work for non-members let me know and I'll repost the pictures one by one.

Italian license plates related to Fiume (today called Rijeka) certainly date it before 1945. when it became part of Yugoslavia.


Thanks for the link dmj :-)

Just brushing up my Croation skills :-)

Will be back presently :-)

#29 dmj

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 06:52

Picture speaks a thousand words... :)
I wouldn't go to translate anything from that thread as it wouldn't add to knowledge, it is repeating of the facts obtainable in English.

#30 arttidesco

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:53

An observation regarding the alleged 1945 documentation for the Jankiowits Alfa posted on the French auction site, is that it tells us absolutely nothing about the Jankowits Alfa, and I have to wonder if can we be sure it has any relationship to the Jankowits Alfa at all ?

The document reveals neither registration number or chassis details which we might expect, neither of the signatures on the front belong to Jankowits, and the number on the bottom is 2720 does not relate to any number I have seen in any photo's of the car. either.

Finally on the subject of the document would anyone happen if this document is a travel permit or vehicle registration permit or to know what the 'VU' and 'JA' represents, a wild guess the 'JA' is Jugoslavia but what about the 'VU' ?

Of course the reverse side of the document could have all the details one might expect, in which case one might wonder why the reverse was not also posted.

#31 dmj

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 13:52

It was literally a "Driving permission". JA stands for Yugoslavian Army (Jugoslavenska armija) and my guess is that VU is Military Government (Vojna uprava).

I was also always curious about the reverse side of the document.

#32 dmj

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:38

Ok, here is what Goran Slavic, a Croatian car historian based in Rijeka, said after researching the case (as refered in first post and several times since), there are a few missing links that sound explanatory:

Oscar and Gino Jankovits were apparently both engineers and their father was Alfa Romeo agent for that part of (then) Italy. Thus they had access to the factory and apparently were able to buy an abandoned chassis without engine. Apparently they bought it in 1937. or early 1938. and chassis was supposed to have a mid-mounted engine. So this could really be some kind of official factory project indeed but certainly an abandoned one. Article stated that they discussed project with Ricart and got some plans from him but in the meantime current owner linked it to Jano. And I see it as more probable, if there is any connection. It could be something left from Jano days that Ricart wanted to get rid off (just my wild guess, of course).

Brothers then started to construct their car, mostly from the plans they made as early as 1934., and put inside an engine from 1934 6C 2300 Pescara. In 1938. they put it together without any bodywork and managed to obtain a registration plate (as seen in first picture in link I provided). Later in 1939. Bodywork was done by a company called Lampo in Rijeka (Fiume), and design was roughly made by Oscar Jankovits and then detailed in Switzerland by Hermann Graber! Maybe it is a possibility to date the car – I presume that there is some history of Graber and that his records might have survived.


#33 arttidesco

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:12

Ok, here is what Goran Slavic, a Croatian car historian based in Rijeka, said after researching the case (as refered in first post and several times since), there are a few missing links that sound explanatory:

Oscar and Gino Jankovits were apparently both engineers and their father was Alfa Romeo agent for that part of (then) Italy. Thus they had access to the factory and apparently were able to buy an abandoned chassis without engine. Apparently they bought it in 1937. or early 1938. and chassis was supposed to have a mid-mounted engine. So this could really be some kind of official factory project indeed but certainly an abandoned one. Article stated that they discussed project with Ricart and got some plans from him but in the meantime current owner linked it to Jano. And I see it as more probable, if there is any connection. It could be something left from Jano days that Ricart wanted to get rid off (just my wild guess, of course).

Brothers then started to construct their car, mostly from the plans they made as early as 1934., and put inside an engine from 1934 6C 2300 Pescara. In 1938. they put it together without any bodywork and managed to obtain a registration plate (as seen in first picture in link I provided). Later in 1939. Bodywork was done by a company called Lampo in Rijeka (Fiume), and design was roughly made by Oscar Jankovits and then detailed in Switzerland by Hermann Graber! Maybe it is a possibility to date the car – I presume that there is some history of Graber and that his records might have survived.


Great clarrification dmj :up:

I can up the stakes on the chassis which allegedly had / has the No. 700316 and was a 6C 2300 type can anyone confirm if the chassis number falls with in the 6C 2300 chassis range and if so possibly give a year the chassis may have been manufactured ?

Also the 6C 2300 engine fitted with triple 36 DO4 Webbers should have a small range of manufacture dates can anyone shed any light on the dates and which vehicles they might have been intended for ?

Finally I recall in the late 70's when Mr Ecclestone was running Alfa Engines in the BT45 he made a comment about Alain de Cadanet's P2 or P3 having the wrong era Alfa Badge on his car, can anyone identify the era of the badge that has lately appeared on the restored Jankowits Alfa Romeo ?

There is a detail of it on this page (top left of the right hand column) which can be enlarged with a click on the pic ?

Edited by arttidesco, 23 July 2010 - 10:53.


#34 wenoopy

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 10:04

It was literally a "Driving permission". JA stands for Yugoslavian Army (Jugoslavenska armija) and my guess is that VU is Military Government (Vojna uprava).

The terminology "Vojna Uprava Jugoslavenske Armije" appears on postage stamps issued by the Yugoslav Military Government for the area in 1945-47.
The Yugoslav Army quickly occupied Rijeka and the Istria Peninsula in 1945, and the majority of the Italian populace of Fiume/Rijeka fled to Italy, in the sure knowledge that they could expect no favours from the Yugoslavs. The Jankovits maybe came to some accomodation with the authorities to have registered the car with them and then spirited it away to Italy in 1946. I wonder what the subsequent movements of the car and its builders were.

#35 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 10:17

C/n 700316 would be a 1934 6C 2300 Gran Turismo or Pescara according to Fusi:

http://www.alfabb.co...p-friendly.html

#36 arttidesco

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 10:22

The terminology "Vojna Uprava Jugoslavenske Armije" appears on postage stamps issued by the Yugoslav Military Government for the area in 1945-47.
The Yugoslav Army quickly occupied Rijeka and the Istria Peninsula in 1945, and the majority of the Italian populace of Fiume/Rijeka fled to Italy, in the sure knowledge that they could expect no favours from the Yugoslavs. The Jankovits maybe came to some accomodation with the authorities to have registered the car with them and then spirited it away to Italy in 1946. I wonder what the subsequent movements of the car and its builders were.


According to this web site the car was stored from 1941 to 1946 then spirited from Flume to Italy on Christmas Day 1946 before being sold to an American serviceman, I have not, yet, seen any dates as to when that transaction took place nor to the subsequent fate of the Jankowits brothers.

Edited by arttidesco, 23 July 2010 - 10:53.


#37 dmj

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 10:35

I have no dates either but i do believe that brothers passed fairly recently. They used to live in Sirmione, at Lago di Garda.

#38 arttidesco

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 10:54

I have no dates either but i do believe that brothers passed fairly recently. They used to live in Sirmione, at Lago di Garda.


I wonder if there is any record of anyone having spoken to the Jankowits brothers about the car ?

#39 arttidesco

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 13:20

Great clarrification dmj :up:

I can up the stakes on the chassis which allegedly had / has the No. 700316 and was a 6C 2300 type can anyone confirm if the chassis number falls with in the 6C 2300 chassis range and if so possibly give a year the chassis may have been manufactured ?

Also the 6C 2300 engine fitted with triple 36 DO4 Webbers should have a small range of manufacture dates can anyone shed any light on the dates and which vehicles they might have been intended for ?

Finally I recall in the late 70's when Mr Ecclestone was running Alfa Engines in the BT45 he made a comment about Alain de Cadanet's P2 or P3 having the wrong era Alfa Badge on his car, can anyone identify the era of the badge that has lately appeared on the restored Jankowits Alfa Romeo ?

There is a detail of it on this page (top left of the right hand column) which can be enlarged with a click on the pic ?


Dig around enough and it's amazing what can be found on the Intelweb regarding 6C 2300 chassis numbers turns out from this site that 'if', and it is yet to be reliably proven that it does, the Jankovits Alfa Romeo does have the chassis number 700316 the date of chassis manufacture is 1934 when the chassis for the 6C 2300 Gran Turismo and Pescara model variants ran from 700101 to 700635.

This suggests it is with in the bounds of possibility that the Jankowits brothers already had the chassis in their care at the time they drew up plans for their 'Special' and I do use that word selectively.

It would be interesting to know if there is any ownership history on 700316 between manufacture and it landing in the hands of the Jankowits brothers.

I suspect that the engine with its triple Webbers is from a later date and will see if I can find an engine number.

Now back to that word 'Special' else where on the alfabb site are some statements which suggest that the Jankowits car was offered to Luigi Fusi who I understand was responsible for collecting cars for the Alfa Romeo Museum, antique car hunter Colin Crabbe had this to say about the Jankowits Alfa Romeo Spyder - "It was a queer looking thing, the rear bonnet had been removed and a small petrol tank had been strapped on behind the engine. I contacted Luigi Fusi at the Alfa Romeo museum, and he was insistent it was nothing more than a special. No one was interested in it then and I had a devil of a job selling the thing."

Turns out the car is a bit of a monster to handle at low speed and the cramped cockpit and is a bit of a nightmare for the passengers who have to put up with a good elbowing from the driver as he / she man handles the car through the turns.

Pretty damning proof that a lot of money and a lot of effort has been spent dressing mutton as lamb I'd say. Not 100 percent conclusive maybe but good enough to follow the maxim if it looks too good to be true it probably is :lol:

The poor owner, Georg Gebhard seems quite convinced Vitorrio Jano was involved in the Jankowits Special development of what he believes to be the first ever mid engine racing 'sports' car fitted with the first triple webber 6C 2300 "Migle Millia" engine.

Herr Gebhard thinks Mr Fusi was involved in trying to re unite the car with the Jankowits brothers while in Neil Crabbs care, Herr Genhard also seems to think Mr Fusi tried to purchase the Jankowits Special for the Alfa Romeo Museum in 1985 ???
(Odd since Fusi knew the car was a special)

Sorry the vid is in German

Edited by arttidesco, 23 July 2010 - 13:31.


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#40 dmj

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 10:50

Thanks for renaming the thread, now maybe it will catch more attention from people who should be able to add something...

#41 arttidesco

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 18:16

Looking at the badge on Jankowits special it would appear the 'Alfa Romeo' (scroll down to the bottom of post #20) part is correct for the period in which it was said to be designed and built 1934 - 1939.




#42 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 21:38

Apropos of nothing, does anyone know if these two brothers were any relation to a Yugoslav AIACR delegate who was at the aborted meeting in Bern in May 1940? Automobil-Revue called him "Dr Yankovitch", but foreign renderings of Balkan names are always a bit iffy.

#43 arttidesco

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 22:50

Can't help you on the Jankovitch connection Vitesse2 but would like to thank you for digging out the chassis numbers several hours before I did and apologise for not noticing :blush:

For model collectors out there I thought you might like to know that there is a 1:43 scale Jankowits 6C from Tron Club available, if you have a blue one on a plinth that says 'Alfa Romeo 6C/512 Jankowits 1938 by Tron Club' (see Reply #16) hang on to it for dear life, as it will be apparent that 6C/512 is an oxymoron and that the Jankowits Special was in existence long before the 512 was dreamt up, meaning your 6C/512 plinth has an obvious error that will have the silly money chasing it soon enough.

BTW does anyone know what happened to the Jankowits Specials hub caps ?

The otherwise futuristic car looks quite old skool and bereft without them.

Edited by arttidesco, 27 July 2010 - 22:52.


#44 dmj

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 07:43

Apropos of nothing, does anyone know if these two brothers were any relation to a Yugoslav AIACR delegate who was at the aborted meeting in Bern in May 1940? Automobil-Revue called him "Dr Yankovitch", but foreign renderings of Balkan names are always a bit iffy.


Very long shot... It's an extremely common family name in Serbia and Croatia, spread around other surrounding countries as well so there is very little possibility of any connection.



#45 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 07:55

Thanks, Dino. I figured it was unlikely, but in the spirit of leaving no stone unturned ...;)

#46 arttidesco

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 09:06

In the spirit of leaving no stone unturned and returning back to the topic I was surprised to find this article headlined Alfa Romeo 6C 2300 V12 Castagna, which sounded like another oxymoron vis 6C and V12 but amazingly this was a Castagna prototype built on a 6C 2300 chassis with a 3.5 litre Gioacchino Colombo V12 engine in the front !

The article implies this car was built for the 1940 Mille Miglia, which it is also implied was cancelled ! ( The 1940 MM was actually won by von Hanstein / Bäumer in a BMW 328).

I have not heard of this Colombo 3.5 litre V12 engine before can anyone shed any light on when it was first built and or any other vehicles it was used for ?

i am wondering if this COULD be the mythical V12 engine the Jankowits brothers had in mind for their special, though I suspect that the Colombo V12 like the 512 and 163 V16 was designed long after the Jankowits Special was roaming the streets of Flume 1935 - 1939 depending on who you believe.

Edited by arttidesco, 28 July 2010 - 23:27.


#47 arttidesco

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 09:28

Thanks to a thread on the oldtimer-tv.com forum (mostly in German) seems the 1940 MM was cancelled on the instructions of Mussolini after 10 deaths were recorded during the 1938 running of the MM, for the 1940 MM a 169 km road course was used running 9 laps with cars setting of one at a time as on the original MM. Just to confuse the issue the 1940 MM is not considered an official MM ???

According to concept carz Colombos V12 in the 6C Castagna chassis to have been a prototype of which only two were built. Not entirely sure how or why Castagne got hold of this V12 or even if it was they who fitted it, not sure what became of the second prototype V12 ?

Since Colombo did not start at Alfa until 1937 we can be pretty sure the Jankowits brothers did not have it in mind to put the Colombo prototype V12 in their special when they set out to design it in 1934.

I wonder if the additional engine mountings found on the Jankowits special were left over (simply not removed) from the original 700316 chassis that the brothers started with ?

Finally I have roughly translated Georg Gebhard's oldtimer-tv.com presentation on the car from German to English if you would like a copy PDF for research PM me with your e-mail address :-)

#48 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 09:52

Since Colombo did not start at Alfa until 1937 ...

As I understand it Colombo started at Alfa Romeo in 1924, working under Jano, and remained with them until he was laid off in January 1945.

Edited by Tim Murray, 31 July 2010 - 11:54.


#49 arttidesco

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 10:11

As I understand it Colombo started at Alfa Romeo in 1924, working under Jano, and remained with them until he was laid off in July 1945.


Stand corrected mis-read Wiki :blush: Any idea when Colombo came up with the prototype 3.5 litre V12 Tim ?

#50 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 10:55

Thanks to a thread on the oldtimer-tv.com forum (mostly in German) seems the 1940 MM was cancelled on the instructions of Mussolini after 10 deaths were recorded during the 1938 running of the MM, for the 1940 MM a 169 km road course was used running 9 laps with cars setting of one at a time as on the original MM. Just to confuse the issue the 1940 MM is not considered an official MM ???

Not only mostly in German but mostly wrong. The 1939 Mille Miglia was cancelled on the instructions of Mussolini. In 1939 there was a 1500km race along the newly completed coast road in Libya: this race is known as the Litoreana Libica, attracting only Italian and German participation, but should not be viewed as even a "replacement" Mille Miglia as it had no connection with the Brescia club. There had also been a previous Litoreana Libica race in 1937 over a shorter section of the road.

First announcements of the 1940 race were made towards the end of 1939: its official title was the "Grand Prix of Brescia for the Mille Miglia Trophy".

There is another (cancelled) 1939 event for which I believe these supposed V12 engined-cars might have been intended. In the context of the time, 3.5 litres is a very strange engine capacity - especially for an Italian car intended for competition. An unblown 3.5 would be eligible for the sports car category of the Formule Internationale but Alfa already had the 4.5 litre 412 for that: to be competitive a 3.5 would need to be fitted in a very light chassis built right down to the minimum permitted weight, so I think that is an unlikely option, especially as no Formule Internationale races of any sort - racing or sports - were to be run in Italy in 1939 (nor, probably in 1940). Added to that, the Italian national sports car regulations of the time imposed a maximum of 3 litres on unblown engines. Interesting dilemma, eh?

I have reason to believe - based on purely circumstantial evidence - that this V12 engine might have its origins in 1936. Does anybody know the exact capacity?

Edited by Vitesse2, 29 July 2010 - 20:10.