66 replies to this topic

[dmj]

First announcements of the 1940 race were made towards the end of 1939: its official title was the "Grand Prix of Brescia for the Mille Miglia Trophy".

And it shouldn't be considered as a real Mille Miglia. But as BMW is main sponsor of new MM for years somehow everyone is keen to accept 1940. as a real one. I suppose it wouldn't be nice for the event if main sponsor's most glamourous cars wouldn't be eligible for the retro event...

[arttidesco]

Interesting dilemma, eh?

Thanks Vitesse 2

Has a word of truth in connection with an Alfa Romeo ever been said or written outside the hallowed halls of TNF ?

So we now have the Jankowits Special and the Alfa Romeo 6C 2300 V12 Castagna running with question marks over them

ref your request dmj I am on the case next :-)

[Tim Murray]

Stand corrected mis-read Wiki Any idea when Colombo came up with the prototype 3.5 litre V12 Tim ?

Sorry Art, I can't find any reference to this particular engine other than the ones you've quoted, but my sources on Alfas are fairly limited.

Re Colombo's Wiki entry - yet again (see their DSJ entry) they couldn't even be bothered to get the year of his death (1987) correct. Definitely not a reliable source.

[arttidesco]

Sorry Art, I can't find any reference to this particular engine other than the ones you've quoted, but my sources on Alfas are fairly limited.

Re Colombo's Wiki entry - yet again (see their DSJ entry) they couldn't even be bothered to get the year of his death (1987) correct. Definitely not a reliable source.

thanks for looking Tim :-) I'll try the Alfa bb forum :-)

To be fair to Wiki on this occasion it was my mistake not Wiki's, they never said Colombo started at Alfa in 1937 :-)

Edited by arttidesco, 29 July 2010 - 23:52.

[Ralf Pickel]

Well, a new try today - I did type this yesterday, but, of course, it did not work...
German mag "Motor Klassik" had a (very superficial written - ususal...) report of this Castagna V12 car in the 01/2010 issue.
Here are the facts as reported.
Colombo started the V12 concept in 1937, it was thought as a 4 litre, size to fit in the 6C 2900.
The engine had 3560 ccm, as Tipo S 10 it had 140 HP at 4700/rpm, as Tipo S 10 SS (higher comp, triple carbs) about 165 hp.
According to Fusi there have been two 3,6 engines.
In 1940 the displacement was reduced to 3 litre, according to the technical requirements of the planned 1941 Mille, which limited engine size to 3 lit. with no superchargers allowed.
Thie engine in the coupe was found in one of Alfas storage areas around Lake Orta. It came via Alfa experts Mario Righini and Dieter Dambacher to Gianni Torelli, who restored it for Corrado Lopresto.
Lopresto had the engine fitted into 6C 2500 chassis 915066 - to built a similar car that might have been run in 1941.

No further infos, unfortunately.

Hope that helps a bit.

Edited by Ralf Pickel, 30 July 2010 - 06:28.

[arttidesco]

Well, a new try today - I did type this yesterday, but, of course, it did not work...
German mag "Motor Klassik" had a (very superficial written - ususal...) report of this Castagna V12 car in the 01/2010 issue.
Here are the facts as reported.
Colombo started the V12 concept in 1937, it was thought as a 4 litre, size to fit in the 6C 2900.
The engine had 3560 ccm, as Tipo S 10 it had 140 HP at 4700/rpm, as Tipo S 10 SS (higher comp, triple carbs) about 165 hp.
According to Fusi there have been two 3,6 engines.
In 1940 the displacement was reduced to 3 litre, according to the technical requirements of the planned 1941 Mille, which limited engine size to 3 lit. with no superchargers allowed.
Thie engine in the coupe was found in one of Alfas storage areas around Lake Orta. It came via Alfa experts Mario Righini and Dieter Dambacher to Gianni Torelli, who restored it for Corrado Lopresto.
Lopresto had the engine fitted into 6C 2500 chassis 915066 - to built a similar car that might have been run in 1941.

No further infos, unfortunately.

Hope that helps a bit.

Thank you for persevering Ralf, I think we all had similar problems posting yesterday

If Colombo started the 3.6 litre V12 concept in 1937 we can eliminate this engine from being one intended for use by the Jankowits Brothers when they started their design in 1935, I am now firmly of the belief that the Jankowits brothers never had any intention of fitting their Special with a V12 of any description and that any evidence of additional engine mountings on the Jankowits chassis are either :

- a hangover from the alleged original #700316 chassis,
- a design or manufacturing error,
- the brothers had in mind to install an older and longer 8C engine
- any combination of the above.

IMHO the only reason that some commentators believe the Jankowits 6C 2300 engine looks under size in it's compartment is because of the unusual, for the period, full width pontoon bodywork.

Either way the fact remains that from what appears to be an original drawing by Gino Jankowits the Jankowits Special was intended to be powered by a single carburettor 6C 2300 and talk of any other engine configuration in relation to this car is nothing but unnecessary hypothetical myth making about a car that is remarkable enough in it's own right.



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[aldo]

I did some research on the Jankovits car and then I gave up to pursue other priorities.
The first conclusions are that the article by my dear friend Michele Marchianò in the October 2005 issue of Ruoteclassiche is 98% crap, as well as most of the presentation written by today German owner.
I have copies of some sketches by Gino Jankovits dated 1935: one is about brakes modified from a 1933 Buick, another one presents the front suspensions including parts modified from a Ford V8 Saloon 1935. There are also drawings of both front and rear suspensions and general layout, signed by Gino and dated 11 December 1935, and the already published in this Forum side and aerial views by Gino, again dated 1935. The engine is clearly a V6 2.300 single carb. It was actually taken from a 1935 Pescara saloon. Another sketch by Gino confirms that.
It is interesting to note that the idea of the three-seater with central driver seat was probably taken from a patent filed by Lancia in 1934: a prototype following such a layout was, I heard, actually built around 1949 with the "A10" identification.
A few photos show the car still in prototype form, without the body (in heavy steel), and fully finished in Fiume, year 1938.
Fiume was then part of the Kingdom of Italy. The licence plate reads FM 2757. FM means Fiume (today, Rijeka).
In 1946, Fiume and the adjoning territory were in a sort of "suspended" state as far as government was concerded. The whole area, including Trieste, was a buffer zone between Italy and Yugoslavia. The small territory around Trieste, and the city itself, were under the government of Allied powers (UK and USA), and were named "Zona A" (A Zone). The rest of territory, larger and today split between Slovenija and Croatia, was the "Zona B" (B Zone) and governed temporarly by the Yugoslavians.
While Zona A was reunited to Italy in 1954, Zona B became de-facto Yugoslavia much earlier. The official border treaty between Italy and Yugoslavia was signed some decades later.
The Jankovits applied for a "Licenza di Circolazione", i.e. permit to use the car, on December 24, 1946 to the local authorities in Fiume. It looks like being the first one ever asked for the car, after the war.
The document (number 2720) has printed explanations in Italian, Croatian and Slovenian. Handwritten words are in Italian only.
The Alfa Romeo car was registered as no. R0559 (is this the chassis number?) with engine number 700316, as three-seater.
The owners are listed as "Fratelli Jancovits fu Matteo", i.e. Brother Jankovits, sons of the deceased Matteo. The typo in the name is the document. They lived in "Fiume, via Ciotta 27". The permit expired on December 31, 1946 and its validity was for "Istria, Litorale Sloveno e Zona A".
It means that the Jankovits had a permit only for a week, good for driving into the A Zone, i.e. Trieste and the whole area around Fiume. Therefore, the stories about bullet dents when they "escaped" into Trieste are sheer fantasy. They drove the car with a regular cross-border permit.
Apparenly, as already written, the car went then into the US, while the Jankovits settled in Sirmione, a beautiful resort on the Garda Lake, Northern Italy, where they ran the Astoria Lido Hotel (the hotel is still there, but no more Jankovits').
A letter by Malcom Templeton, Alfa Romeo dealer in Ballymena, Northern Ireland, to the Jankovits (dated June 5, 1981) confirms that the car is in his ownership. He reports on a letter by Mr. Luigi Fusi of the then forming Alfa Romeo Museum, who passed the information about the Jankovits as builders of the car. Mr. Templeton, apparently, didn't know the origin and the story of the car.
I read of other owners in UK, then the car was owned for years by an Italian collector, Mr. Nazario Bacchi, living in Forlì, Emilia Romagna Region. He started the restoration of the car in Modena. Photos of the engine bay when the car was at Bacchi's show a three-carb layout. The colour of the car appears to be light blue, not the dark green as today. The restored car was sold at the Artcurial auction on February 2004 in Paris, alas with an incomplete description of its story, still partially unknown.
I do not know how to upload photos here, yet I'd be happy to share the images I have. Send a mail to aldo.zana@agenpress.com. I will be quite late in answering as I'll leave next Monday to Monterey.

[arttidesco]

Great research Aldo

PM'd you regarding the pics and drawings :-)

Thanking you in anticipation :-)

I was talking to some on at the VSCC Prescott meeting today who saw the car at the Double 12 meeting at Brooklands he was quite shocked to hear that there was any question about the story behind the Jankowits Spider.

[Dutchy]

Agreed very interesting.

One small point though; the engine is a dohc straight six not a V6.

[dmj]

This Argentinian Alfa 6c special has some resemblance to Jankovits car, although is most probably front engined. Don't know anything but that pic was taken in Buenos Aires:

Argentinian 6c

[arttidesco]

This Argentinian Alfa 6c special has some resemblance to Jankovits car, although is most probably front engined. Don't know anything but that pic was taken in Buenos Aires:

Argentinian 6c

Cool car dmj it would be interesting to know what it was.

Here are some pics of Alfa Romeo's bearing the name Aerodinamica :-

1913 Alfa 40-60 HP Aerodinamica

1934 Alfa Romeo Tipo B Aerodinamica GP Monoposto

1935 Pinin Farina 6C Pescara Coupé Aerodinamica

1939 Alfa Romeo 6C 2500 SS Berlinetta Aerodinamica

I wonder who, why and when the Jankowits Alfa Romeo acquired the Aerodinamica name ?

[arttidesco]

I find it absolutely hilarious this car has one a prize for being a 'Classic pre 1940's racer' I wonder if Mr Gebhard has any evidence that the car was ever taken any where near a race track or even that it's really an Alfa Romeo, in contradiction to Mr Luigi Fusi ?

Certainly the 1934 Tipo B Aerodynamica GP Monoposto and 1935 Pinin Farina 6C Pescara Coupe Aerodinamica might have had some proven competition history, but apart from a random phone call to an auction house by an unidentified female a few years ago does anyone know of any actual events the car competed in or better still photographs of the car in competition ?

The plan drawings of the car feature a front bumper not what I would have expected from a car designed for competition any more than I'd expect a competition car to have a bench seat big enough for three.

Apparently the steering is so heavy that competition would be almost impossible on anything other than a straight road.

[arttidesco]

Great to see the Jankowits in the flesh at Goodwood

This explains the description in the Goodwood programme :

'Developed in secret at Mussolini's request by Vittorio Jano, Gino and Oscar Jankovits, the "Aerospatiale2 was to have had a V12. Fitted with a 6C 2300 engine, Oscar drove it out of Italy in 1946, despite being shot at.'

I did wonder why a car would be escaping from Italy. Escaping from Communist Yugoslavia (or Croatia) makes more sense, possibly into Italy.

The programme notes this year read

"Vittorio Jano worked with Gino and Oscar Jankowits to build the 'Aerospider'. Conceived as a V12 (!!!! really ??? not what the drawings show) with low drag body, adjustable braking and advanced chassis, it 'now' runs with a 6C 2300 engine."

Is anyone aware of the the Jankowits running with anything other than a 6C 2300 engine ?



It would be interesting to know if the final transmission layout resulted in a longer wheel base than the 2800mm suggested in the drawings which show the gearbox mounted behind the differential.

Thanks to Wolf who started this thread which brought the Jankowits to my attention and to everyone who's comments contributed to my blog on this most interesting vehicle.

[arttidesco]

What ever his faults bravery isn't one of them, the extremely brave Mr Gerhard, driving the beautiful Jankowits, ponders which part of the 3 person bench seat he will be sitting on if he makes it round Lavant Corner at extremely low speed, on the cars global track debut.

[arttidesco]

Interesting article on Luigi Fusi and Jankowits dated March 1985, on this link, includes photo graphs and drawings I have not seen before.

[helioseism2]

Well, hopefully all of your questions will be answered (maybe) in the book

[arttidesco]

Wondering round the Technik Museum at Sinsheim I was pleasantly surprised to see the Jankowitz again.

 

 

Edited by arttidesco, 19 October 2022 - 09:47.