40 replies to this topic

[zakeriath]

Going through some old move boxes, I came across my old motor racing "collection", this comprised of autographed Autosports, autographed F1 stickers, scrap books with autographs, cut up autosport pictures and news paper cuttings, race programmes, team give aways etc, mostly from the late 70`s. Am I am fairly confident that most TNF`s have the same type of collection.

While I have no plans to give these away now, what happens to these type of collections of old motor racing memorabilia. I have never seen a collection of autographs, photos on e bay, so what happens to most of these when we pass on, are they mostly thrown away.

This leads to my use of the thread subject, does this nostalia have a value , not in any sales value but is there any point in keeping all of this looked up in the attic. Most collections are very rarely seen by anybody else, whilst I am fairly sure that the larger collections such as Donington will have no use at all for it. So unless it is passed down through the generations, what other options are available.

Suggestions please.

[GeorgeTheCar]

There are places such as the Canadian Motorsport Hall of Fame Archives (www.cmhf.ca) who exist for the purpose of maintaining items such as those for posterity. Our priority is Canadian items but there are others.

In additoin you are not alone. Reach out to others like yourself, create an organization to preserve your materials together.

Good luck!

George ThCar

[Gary C]

depends on what autographs you have & what they are on

[Haddock]

Old programmes etc seem to go for reasonable sums on ebay - don't expect to become rich through selling them, but my father got rid of his collection of late sixties F1 programmes for about a tenner a go.

[Bondurand]

In my very modest opinion, the best thing to do wwith that kind of material is to digitalize it and share it on a website. I recently discovered one that most of you must know :

http://www.racingsportscars.com/

where a lot of photos, programs ans race ads posters from different people are shared.

[Terry Walker]

These sorts of collections are priceless, but not pricey, if you know what I mean. I've seen some marvellous scrapbooks, including one full of glossy 8 x 10 inch b+w prints, and newspaper and magazine clippings, covering practically every Western Australian race meeting from 1936 to 1955. Much of that material finished up in my book Around the Houses.

Jack Nelson, whose collection it was, died recently. His family is having the scrapbook scanned page by page at very high resolution, and is giving the resulting CD (or several CDs possibly) to the WA Sporting Car Club, of which he was a lifelong member.

Recently the WA Sporting Car Club had a reunion of old Caversham racing circuit drivers (Cavvo died in 1968) and many of them bought along piles of photos, memorabilia, programs, scrapbooks, and even their trophies. Fantastic to see. One of them even brought along the very E-type Jag which won a Six Hour Race there, then driven by Harley Pederick.

Sadly, quite a lot of this scrapbook and memorabilia sort of stuff gets junked by descendants who don't appreciate its historic value, when they discover it has no real monetary value. Recently I was told that a lot of home movies of touring car racing at Caversham were simply thrown out because no-one in that family had an 8 mm projector any more. (I've got 2 of them, but how were they to know?)

There's a newly formed outfit here in Western Australia called Motoring Historians WA who are hoping to preserve these sorts items for future research, even if only as digital scans. Photos, old colour slides, home movie film, scrap books, clippings, old pit passes, posters, and whatnot.

I rather regret throwing out my old racing suit years ago, and what happened to my racing helmet I do not know. At least I've still got my racing licence with a very, very young me looking out of it. If I can find it.

[zakeriath]

Taking the advise from above. This is a book that I mnged to have autographed by many of the GP drivers and two team owners from the 78 GP in SA.

Dereck Bell started it off by asking me my name, this had never happened before and from then most of the other drivers took the lead.

WRT Fittipaldi, I was sitting on his left hand side and I had to plead with the photographer to cut me out of the shot as I had cut school for the day and knowing that my form master read this paper, I would have been in for at least 4 jacks (caned 4 times for bunking). It cost me a coke and a packet of crisps.

[WHITE]

As Terry has already said : These sort of things are really priceless !!!!

[Allen Brown]

Different things have different values to different people:

• "autographed Autosports, autographed F1 stickers, scrap books with autographs" have value to autograph collectors. The stickers may have value in their own right. The old Autosports may be worth a quid or two each.
• "cut up autosport picturers and news paper cuttings" are unlikely to have any monetary value.
• "race programmes" have a value of £1 to £3 or possibly more for major events. Scans of the entry lists in these programs are of great value to research websites like OldRacingCars.com (plug!) and RacingSportsCars.com but not monetary value.
• "team give aways" are sometimes seen on sale at Autojumbles. They may have some monetary value.

Allen

[Ray Bell]

A while back a Warwick Farm International programme sold for $1000...

It had autographs of all the drivers in the main race. I think it was the 1968 programme, but I'm not sure.

[Hank the Deuce]

Originally posted by zakeriath
Taking the advise from above. This is a book that I mnged to have autographed by many of the GP drivers and two team owners from the 78 GP in SA.

Dereck Bell started it off by asking me my name, this had never happened before and from then most of the other drivers took the lead.

WRT Fittipaldi, I was sitting on his left hand side and I had to plead with the photographer to cut me out of the shot as I had cut school for the day and knowing that my form master read this paper, I would have been in for at least 4 jacks (caned 4 times for bunking). It cost me a coke and a packet of crisps.

I suspect that more often than not, the true value of such memorabilia would be the memories contained in the anecdote you've supplied in addition to your photos... priceless. Thanks for sharing.

[Bernd]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
A while back a Warwick Farm International programme sold for $1000...

Wow I've got 5 of them including 68... Pity bout the lack of Autographs.

However amongst my Longford ones is one signed by Black Jack. They're bloody rare.

[Frank S]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Different things have different values to different people:
...
Allen

I started collecting programs for my site something like
eight years ago, buying them fom eBay sellers at maybe
three or four dollars each, often in lots of six or more.
Over the last year I've had to quit: there are some
serious collectors out there now, people who made my
few bids of over one hundred dollars look cheap by
auction's end. I'm pretty much out of that market.

One of the early, low-dollar purchases was from a
1955 Bakersfield event. Within a couple weeks a
similar item went for $245.00 to a James Dean fan.

I lose interest in the paper programs once they've
been scanned and made accessible on my site or in
online albums. Eventually I will donate them to a
museum or research center. They have the kind of
value Allen mentions.

In 1979 I was given a "Mario Andretti World Champion"
t-shirt. In 1982 I wore it to a CART race at Riverside.
Managed to flag him down in the garage area, and he
signed the shirt while I was wearing it. It probably has
some value, but the priceless item in the transaction
was his look of pleasure when he recognized the
achievement memorialized on the shirt. I'll keep the
shirt and the memory.

--
Frank S
"You know my method, Watson.
It is founded upon
the observation of trifles."
—Sherlock Holmes—

[dretceterini]

If you don't use it, you might as well sell it. I'm sure that there are many people who would want what you have.

[Doug Nye]

Towards the end of his life DSJ had a saying - which he found to be very true - "Every piece of paper you've ever kept is worth at least a quid". (So keep it until the time seems right to sell it)


DCN

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Towards the end of his life DSJ had a saying - which he found to be very true - "Every piece of paper you've ever kept is worth at least a quid". (So keep it until the time seems right to sell it)


DCN

If it has DSJ's signature, it is worth a lot more than a Quid

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by zakeriath

This is a book that I mnged to have autographed by many of the GP drivers and two team owners from the 78 GP in SA.

If I were you and was the owner of that book with all those fabulous signatures I had collected from those men in person, I would live on the street rather than part with it.

[zakeriath]

Originally posted by Twin Window
If I were you and was the owner of that book with all those fabulous signatures I had collected from those men in person, I would live on the street rather than part with it.

Dont worry I have absolutely no intentions of parting with it for any price.

It will always have far more value to me in remembering meeting and speaking to those greats, while they took the time to look through the book, and also give a little personal comment along with their autographs.

[ensign14]

What could possibly be more valuable than a comp slip from Jackie Stewart to Niki Lauda with signature?

Except possibly one where Jackie mis-spells Nik"k"i's name and writes it on Williams notepaper?

Cos it's a steal here...

[LotusElise]

People writing biographies or books about racing find some of this kind of stuff very useful, especially if it involves obscure drivers.
I love leafing through people's collections and I'm working on building up one of my own.

[monoposto]

Originally posted by ensign14
What could possibly be more valuable than a comp slip from Jackie Stewart to Niki Lauda with signature?

Except possibly one where Jackie mis-spells Nik"k"i's name and writes it on Williams notepaper?

Cos it's a steal here...

Doesn't look like a Jackie Stewart signature to me . . . Jackie ( Scott ) perhaps, Frank Williams' then personal secretary ?

[Twin Window]

Agreed; most certainly not from JYS, and therefore equally doubtful that the recepient was NAL...

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by GeorgeTheCar

There are places such as the Canadian Motorsport Hall of Fame Archives (www.cmhf.ca) who exist for the purpose of maintaining items such as those for posterity. Our priority is Canadian items but there are others.

In additoin you are not alone. Reach out to others like yourself, create an organization to preserve your materials together.

I feel I must do a plug for Martin Hadwen's Motor Racing Archive, see separate thread for it and

www.motorracingarchive

desperately needing funding and volunteers, because so much stuff has been passed to him for safe keeping..............

Usual disclaimers

Roger Lund

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Towards the end of his life DSJ had a saying - which he found to be very true - "Every piece of paper you've ever kept is worth at least a quid".
DCN

Much as I value the various DSJ penned books which Jenks signed for me, the real value for me is the memory of sitting on the rear end of his Escort van with him in the paddock at one of the first Goodwoods whilst he yarned about writing those very books. Magic memories

RL

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by bradbury west


I feel I must do a plug for Martin Hadwen's Motor Racing Archive, see separate thread for it and

www.motorracingarchive

desperately needing funding and volunteers, because so much stuff has been passed to him for safe keeping..............

Usual disclaimers

Roger Lund

Roger the link is incorrect... http://www.motorracing-archive.com/ .. this is it.

I would pose the question about this place/website... what is the point of it if no-one has access to the memorabilia and records?

I donated some copies of audio tapes from the 1970s and also requested that they check a TGP result from their magazines. I received neither the results requested nor confirmation that my tapes had arrived safely. This was after a number of emails from me...

This place looks to me like a private collection with a website (containing limited information) asking for donations.


Rob

[coldplugs]

Originally posted by zakeriath
...does this nostalia have a value, not in any sales value but is there any point in keeping all of this looked up in the attic. Most collections are very rarely seen by anybody else, ......
Suggestions please.

I think much of this stuff has value on several levels. Monetary value is one aspect, but historical and enthusiast interest are also important. I agree completely with those who suggested making some of the collection available in digital form, preferably on a website. The web is wonderful for this, because we get to keep our treasures and, at the same time, share them with others who'll appreciate them.

Just as an example, a friend & I are scrambling to collect material on the history of Berkeleys in the US. Our real enemy is time - those who were part of it, dealers, racers, etc are getting older and dying off and family members tend to just pitch all their old car-related photos, documents, and so on. Oddly, some people with fine collections are loath to share them, as though making an image of something available to all somehow cheapens the thing.

The same could happen to my stuff - most has little or no monetary value - if I don't get it all out on the net someplace and/or write specific instructions for my kids to follow to get it to other enthusiasts.

I've had my website up for several years now and have been begging for contributions for much of that time. Although I get lots of e-mail traffic (& get to correspond with some terrific people) only a few folks have sent photos.

My opinion in summary then, is to scan or photograph wherever it's reasonable to do so and try to make the images accessible to enthusiasts and historians.

[Arturo Pereira]

I guess nostalgia has a value and it could have also a price ;)

[KJJ]

I see the National Motor Museum is a registered charity and therefore regulated by the Charity Commission. I would have thought it would be sensible for any organisation seeking funding and donations to do the same.

[Terry Walker]

There's a newly formed organisation in Western Australia with the same objectives. We're registered as a not-for-profit organisation, recognised by museums etc. We are actually already, despite being less than a year old, getting donations of material. We also offer services such as checking out for free anything of interest to us in a deceased estate and advising executors etc of its potential historical value. Membership? About a dozen.

We don't have out own website yet but I have a blurb on mine:

http://www.terrywalk...ources/MHWA.htm

If we can do it, anyone can. Don't waste time. Get weaving. It's important.

[GeorgeTheCar]

That is essentially the same mission as the Candaian Motorsport Hall of Fame Archives.
See my earlier post.

It is doubtful that any one organization can do it all so we have to pick our turf and try to do a good job on our little patch, We do need to link up and cross reference as people have this funny habit of moving around.

Recently I was in Los Angles and visited the Petersen Automitive Museum. They have established an Archive and the curatir told me that they are iin "the collection phase" and are planning a multimillion dollar archival installation. I am sure that even their effort will not have everything so we need to keep saving motosport history in our own corner of the world.

Let's stay in touch

archives@cmhf.ca

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder


Roger the link is incorrect... http://www.motorracing-archive.com/ .. this is it.

I would pose the question about this place/website... what is the point of it if no-one has access to the memorabilia and records?
This place looks to me like a private collection with a website (containing limited information) asking for donations.


Rob

Rob, I grind no particular axe for Martin's site, nor do I act as his spokesman, just that I believe that things like that are important, quod vide other postings.

As I understand it, Martin started off as the collection/dumping point for the old BRSCC archives from various circuits. Better he had them than that they disappeared or were destroyed. He has since moved from N Kent to Norfolk, where at least he has a range of buildings in which to keep them. However, he still works full time, like full time , hearing about the hours he puts in etc, and devotes his spare time to compiling the archive. I believe he has an occasional volunteer, otherwise he remains trhe entire workforce.

Unfortunately for him, the respopnse to his facility has grown at a frightening rate, which at least augurs well for future use, once it is all catalogued. You will, of course, appreciate that as stuff comes to him it is usually just in boxes or cases, unsorted etc, generally as it came from someone's loft. Old cine films are usually just that, with no title/heading or info about the contents.

When I spoke to him a while ago, mentioning programmes, as I still have gaps, I believe, in my DRW records for some years and circuits (BRSCC series clubmans mid 60s) Martin mentioned that he was about 2,000 programmes behind with his listings, see website for his lists.

I feel you are being a little unjust to him in your criticisms. He is very much in the position that Beaulieu was in the early fifties when they had sheds of old cars, or the Schlumpf collection when owned by the brothers with more cars to restore than displayed etc. It all takes time, ask DCN how long it took to go through Jenks' stuff.

Terry and some of the others here have recognised the need/merit for such a system of archives. It is seriously labout intensive just to catalogue, let alone scan/copy/re-record stuff on CD/DVD. I know how long it takes me to do it with the material which people have generously loaned to me for my project, and that is just at the collating stage.

With regards to KJJ's point about becoming a Regd Charity, there is a bit more to it than just registering and asking for the dosh. see charity Commission's website, and that is before you explore the risks and legal obligations of Trusteeship, plus the rigours of the Companies Acts if you run as an incorporated company, which is always advisable.

So I would ask that you take an indulgent view of any of these archive facilities.

How are TNFers planning to pass on their own records? Are they in a workable format for others to understand,. or would they just be handed over by heirs/beneficiaries as a "load of stuff in boxes"?

In terms of funding, the awards made by the Lottery Fund would indicate that such archives are not in scope, I suspect. Perhaps Bernard Charles Ecclestone and the other men whom he has made very rich would consider supporting an archive fund. With trhe exception of Flav. they all started as club racers. I know they are all very generous with their own charitable work and funding, but these records are part of the sport's history. How do football clubs etc compile their archive records? I suspect they use unpaid fans.

Sorry to go on, but I feel these points need to be made.

RL

[GeorgeTheCar]

As the chair of the Archives committee I can say I wish I had of known of the "Collection Phase" that the Petersen is in.

Often you try to do too much in the begining to prove your worth and it creates compromises for later work.

It will be some time before the CMHF Archives can be a multi-million dollar project but our motto says if all, "Defeat the Dumpster" . Too much is lost to the tip while we argue over who is best to preserve history.

We all should have started sooner!

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by bradbury west

.....snip

I feel you are being a little unjust to him in your criticisms. He is very much in the position that Beaulieu was in the early fifties when they had sheds of old cars, or the Schlumpf collection when owned by the brothers with more cars to restore than displayed etc. It all takes time, ask DCN how long it took to go through Jenks' stuff.
....snip.

RL

Sorry Roger, but I can only speak as I find.
From what you say I can understand the work that is being done, but for me contact with the Archive was not an enjoyable (or productive) experience.
Rob

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by bradbury west

How are TNFers planning to pass on their own records? Are they in a workable format for others to understand,. or would they just be handed over by heirs/beneficiaries as a "load of stuff in boxes"?

That's a very good point... and one I was thinking about in a vacant moment just the other day.

I'm not an historian of any sort, nor do I pretend to be, but I nevertheless possess racing memorabilia of either some monetary value and [potentially, at least] academic worth. My only son - who has little interest in four-wheeled motorsport (and being only fifteen, who can blame him for appreciating bike racing more?!) - will potentially inherit all this 'junk'. In other words, it could easily end up in the bin (although I'd like to think that does my son a disservice).

So, unless I make sure my brother has the stuff in question directed to him instead, I fear Roger's prophesy only too accurate in my case...

[bradbury west]

Stu,

I would not dream of telling you what to do, but the grim reaper seldom arrives announced. It is like wills, it sounds morbid, but really is simply basic organisation.

First thing is to catalogue all your stuff with relevant notes in a logical format that works for you. You will be surprised what you have got. So long as the system is clarified, it should be no problem for anyone else. The worst thing is for someone to inherit it as a jumble. The hardest thing is to try to sort somone else's stuff, even worse if they have no inherent interest.

It is even worse with mechanical stuff, if the other parties have neither interest nor specific knowledge.

RL

[MCS]

Originally posted by bradbury west
How are TNFers planning to pass on their own records? Are they in a workable format for others to understand,. or would they just be handed over by heirs/beneficiaries as a "load of stuff in boxes"?

This is a good question. But there's no easy answer.

I'm beginning to get together all of my stuff finally, but really struggle to comprehend what value any of it really has, either from a monetary or "history" perspective - in much the same way as Stuart clearly does.

Whilst it's fairly obvious that books, magazines, programmes, original photographs, autographs and stickers have a financial worth of at least something, what is the true value? And is it really worth selling a signed programme on eBay for less than a fiver, rather than simply keeping it for sentimental reasons?

Would either of my two daughters understand the value of a signed photograph of Graham Hill in twenty/thirty years' time? Would they just throw it away?! I don't know.

On that basis, my current thoughts are to try and notionallly value everything and sell it somehow or, failing that, offer it to somebody who either collects that sort of thing or would derive some pleasure from it. But who?!

Interesting thread. Let's hope it provides us all with some answers!!

[Frank S]

Somewhere in a similar discussion, someone raised ths question:
When you donate, gift, bequeath your collecteds, how strictly must the recipients follow your wishes?

I know of one case in which the donor expected his gift would reside in the facility of the beneficiary and be accessible to interested parties, casual or serious. The institution bartered his material, increasing the value of their collection, both monetarily and in general usefulness, but the third party denied access by everyone but the principal's family. The donor eventually discovered he could not un-donate. Lost and gone forever, generosity and unjustfied trust punished. I guess the lesson is, make a good contract.

Any road, imagine my delight and consternation in this recent discovery: delight because, well, there they are; consternation because I have lost every memory trace of receiving them, and worse, of what I might have done to generate such a response!



--
Frank S

[Terry Walker]

Frank S: you need a lawyer and a contract. Expectation in meaningless. You need a conditional clause whereby the whole donation is null and void if the conditions are breached.

It happens all too often. Just look at how much UK National trust property has been disposed of directly contrary to the explicit wishes of the donor.

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Frank S
Somewhere in a similar discussion, someone raised ths question:
When you donate, gift, bequeath your collecteds, how strictly must the recipients follow your wishes?
--
Frank S

Rings a bell about a certain Mercedes GP car donated to Beaulieu many moons ago, methinks.

Ensign 14 will probably be able to clarify the matter of "gifts with reservations". It is a big issue with IHT provison.

From our point of view for future archives etc there is a difference between stickers/signed photos etc and race programmes and items which throw historical , accurate, light on specifics. the originals can be copied/scanned to provide an alternative source, even though the original can then be sold, although there is a strange satisfaction in looking through old race programmes and records/results etc. Or is it just me? Sell what you like, if needs must, but keep a copy and pass one to another party.

With my own project I can speak personally about the huge research/information value of race details/ entries, programmes etc, seemingly worthless stuff, kept for years by interested parties. Not to mention the outstanding kindness of those who have made it available to me, or pointed me in the right direction.

As the time in which we write gets so much more distant from the time about which we write, plus the anno domini effect of relevant people getting older, good recordsnow are critical for the future.


RL

[ensign14]

Originally posted by bradbury west

Ensign 14 will probably be able to clarify the matter of "gifts with reservations". It is a big issue with IHT provison.

Unfortunately not...I've not studied probate law since training. I think charitable donations fall outside the estate, so there's a possible get-out from IHT for that.

[Mallory Dan]

Funnily enough I mentioned this issue to some fellow TNFers on the way back from Stoneleigh last month. Though I hope I've got some years to go yet, I don't expect my lads are the least interested in my old Racing stuff - nor various other things I'd never throw out. I'd much rather leave them to other TNF members, knowing they'll be treasured after me !