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Bernie's Auto Union


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#1 Tim Murray

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 17:26

I was somewhat startled to find, on the Crosthwaite & Gardiner stand at the Stoneleigh show, a C-Type Auto Union, described as "the restored chassis 15, found in Russia" and loaned by Mr Bernie Ecclestone.

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My recollection (backed up by the Peter Vann book) is that there was only one 'genuine' C-Type (the one formerly in the Deutsches Museum). Where did this one suddenly spring from?

(post edited to restore missing photo)

Edited by Tim Murray, 10 February 2011 - 12:29.


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#2 Wolf

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 17:40

I think that the loose nut and bolt fell off from Deutsche Museum car before it was put in a crate and shipped to Germany, and this car was faithfully restored from them... :p

Sorry for this (and that I have no useful comment)- but I could not resist a dig at Bernie (which was not malevolent, just a small prod at him because of his reputation).;)

#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 17:54

Joke description of course. Just out of interest - who described it as you quote?

DCN :confused:

#4 Tim Murray

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 18:01

If you look at my first photo (the front view) you can see, beside the left rear wheel, the display board on which these 'facts' were stated. Please do tell - how much of this is a joke?

#5 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 21:43

It's another masterpiece produced by terrific craftsmen. I doubt they speak much German. I don't think much of the car has ever smelled borsch, solianka or vodka either. Apart from the notice board, would it matter? :cat:

DCN

#6 Tim Murray

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 22:44

Oh, surely it would! If it is just another of C & G's superb replicas, then that's absolutely fine - as long as they tell us that that is all it is. If they are trying to con us into believing that it has some claim towards being a genuine car - if such is not the case - then they are not playing fair (to put it mildly). :mad:

It is only reasonable to say, however, that although most of the car was fairly obviously brand spanking new, the chassis rails appeared to be pitted - maybe they are genuine?

I should love to know the truth here - if only because if any or all of it did emerge from Russia, the story behind this must surely be fascinating.

#7 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 23:08

Well 'the story' has already been related in an issue of a well known monthly journal which now wears a red-topped front cover in place of its original pyjama pattern. The basic reason to build the car was once described as being a surviving A-Type Auto Union, and it smelled of Arbroath smokies, haggis and whisky... :rolleyes:

DCN

#8 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 23:14

Tim, you are correct. There is only one known original Type C in existance, which is in the Deutsches Museum. The DM example was donated pre-war by Auto Union and was a static display for many years after the war without its body, which has been lost. To my knowledge, the DM car has been rebodied twice since.

There is an original Type C/D hillclimb car that was recovered from the Riga museum and a replica of this car was built by C&G and provided to the Riga museum to replace the original.

A TNF search will find many threads on the current whereabouts of the few remaining AU's, most of which ended up in the Soviet Union after WWII and were lost.

Bernie's C&G Type C is stunning however, and I certainly would not mind owning one of these.

#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 23:16

Surely not that one Doug?

But perhaps the one which Alexandrow said had been smuggled out to Germany via Romania in 1999 or 2000?

http://forums.autosp...228#post1708228

#10 VWV

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 00:33

Thanks Tim for the excellent pictures. :up:

These pics remind me of some unanswered questions I have on the currently existing Auto Unions (original and recreations) that I never got around to asking as TNF has gone on a Silver Arrows sabatical lately.

1. Looks like the list on 8W http://8w.forix.com/au-lineup.html has to be updated. See the list below:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just how many Auto Unions exist today? And what’s their history? A quick line-up.


Original cars with racing history
Typ C/D Bergrennwagen 1938-1939. It is in fact the only car that took part in pre-war racing and stayed more or less in one piece until today. Came from a museum in Riga, Letvia, now in the Audi Museum Mobile Ingolstadt.


Original cars without racing history
Typ D 1938, which Karassik found in Russia. Now owned by Audi Tradition.
Typ D 1939, also Karassik, now apparently sold to a mysterious owner in Great Britain. Both cars were in fact a large heap of parts. Crosthwaithe & Gardiner (C&G) built two Typ Ds out of them.
Typ D 1938. A display car that came out of Prague, Czechoslovakia. Czech race driver Pohl sold it to Hubertus Count Donhoff, who then sold it to Kerry Payne. In it is a V12 engine that German collector Martin Schröder smuggled out of Leipzig. Colin Crabbe rebuilt the car. It was sold by Christies at Pebble Beach 1990 and now resides somewhere in a warehouse near Frankfurt. I believe its present owner is from Asia.
Typ C, 1936-1937, a display car that survived the war as an exhibit piece in the Deutsches Museum in Munich.


Replicas
Typ C 1937, Stromlinienwagen, built by C&G, now on permanent display in the Audi Museum Mobile in Ingolstadt
Typ C 1936-1937, a replica from C&G, now in the hands of Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt.
Typ C 1936-1937, a replica from C&G, now in the hands of Autostadt in Wolfsburg.
Typ C/D Bergwagen. 1938-1939, a replica of the original, in the Latvian museum in Riga.
Typ D 1939, by C&G, now in the hands of Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt.
Typ A 1934, by C&G, now in the hands of D'Ieteren Frères, Bruxelles.


Replicas being built
Typ A 1934, by C&G, for Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt.
Typ C 1936-1937, by an unknown workshop in Brisbane, Australia, from original plans, don’t know who ordered and payed for this car.


Cars thought to be Auto Unions, but (perhaps) are not
1933/34 P-Wagen, by Terry Wright, now in Scotland and on sale. Very likely a fake, but strangely enough with some genuine parts that no-one knows where they came from.
1940 Typ E, now known to be an Awtowelo Typ 650 ‘Sokol’ from around 1950. In the Donington Collection.
1940 Typ E, now known to be an Awtowelo Typ 650 ‘Sokol’ from around 1950. Partially scrapped, now in the hands of the Dresden Technical Museum.


Known leftover bits
V16 engine, original from 1934 or 1935, on display in the August Horch museum in Zwickau, a gift from the Dresden Technical Museum.
V16 engine, original, used to be in the hands of the Motorradmuseum Augustusburg near Chemnitz. Stolen and present location unknown.
V12 engine, from the Typ D that came out of Prague. Smuggled into the GDR and stoned-in in the basement of a Leipzig apartment building.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This Bernie C-type is new and Audi Tradition has C&G building a 1939 twin stage supercharged D-type replica, there was an article on it's creation in the November 2005 issue of Octane. The article states that this is the last Auto Union of any type to be built by C&G. So these two cars should be added to the list and an amendment stating that Terry Wrights P-Wagen thingie may have been used in the construction of Bernie's C-Type.

2. In the Auto Union: Mysterious History thread http://forums.autosp...y=&pagenumber=3
Doug Nye asked at question in post 82 about the existance of another V-16 show car. Has anymore information come to light since then?

3. What about the car that Alexandrow said had been smuggled out a few years back?

4. What's the story about the C-type being built in Austrailia? What is it's current status?

5. Someone mentioned a few years back that the Karassik's were working on a book about their experiences hunting Auto Unions, is there an further information on this happening?

6. If you go to Aerogi's Motorsport Pictures Forum, there is an interesting thread about Soviet Speed Record cars that I never knew about. http://www.phpbbplan...9&mforum=aerogi
The pics of the cars show to me a Auto Union Stromlinienwagen influence.

#11 RTH

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 07:27

I seem to remember reading that Keith Roach's coachbuilding company had been employed by Audi to manufacture several Auto Union bodies ?

#12 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 08:04

Apologies - my memory is definitely going. I had completely forgotten the 'Auto Union - Mysterious History' thread (even though I posted on it :blush: ) and therefore the Alexandrow story about the smuggled C-Type.

What do the experts here make of the 'Chassis 15' description on Bernie's car? Is that better suited to the 'Scottish' P-Wagen or (more likely, methinks) the 'Alexandrow' C-Type, or neither of these?

#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 10:10

I really should go suss out the one in Brisbane, shouldn't I?

#14 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 15:50

Originally posted by VWV
The article states that this is the last Auto Union of any type to be built by C&G.

Does anyone know why C&G will not be building any additional Auto Unions?

#15 VWV

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 16:25

The Octane arcticle implys that it is because of cost, seems like the bean counters at VW are at it again. This last 1939 D-type was originally supposed to be a rolling chassis without engine & body work for display at the Audi museum similar to the original Deutsches Museum C-type exhibit when Audi was convinced that because all the moulds exist the cost to complete the Auto Union line up would be less then the previous C&G efforts. I have read somewhere else that C&G have have an agreeement with Audi that C&G can't build any AU replica's without Audi permission.

#16 f1steveuk

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 16:58

I spoke to RD, Bernie's mechanic come fac totum thingy, and he stopped short of saying 'replica', bit like BCE's D50, very nice, but not "real" if you know what I mean!

#17 ianselva

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 17:36

I saw the car on C&Gs stand as well and while it was wonderful , it looked so pristine it didn't look 'real' at all.

#18 Allen Brown

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 18:10

We should have a game of Count The Replicas At Stoneleigh.

So apart from this AU, which did look magnificent, I saw a Lotus 49 and a BRM P261. What did I miss - or what was I fooled by?

Allen

#19 Pedro 917

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 18:39

For the lovers : here are some pictures of the D'Ieteren Auto Union type A from Fascination Cars 2002 :

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

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#20 Pedro 917

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 18:47

and at the Brussels retro fair of 2004 :

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

#21 VWV

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 19:04

:) Thank you very Pedro for the excellent pic of the A-type which I have never seen in such detail. Most of the pics of I have seen were of the C-type.

#22 Macca

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 19:06

Originally posted by Allen Brown
We should have a game of Count The Replicas At Stoneleigh.

So apart from this AU, which did look magnificent, I saw a Lotus 49 and a BRM P261. What did I miss - or what was I fooled by?

Allen


There was the Ferrari 156 Sharknose (chassis/engine only - but a real engine) on the Jim Stokes stand..........

Paul M

#23 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 22:30

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I really should go suss out the one in Brisbane, shouldn't I?

I had come to the conclusion that it was all an invention of the rumour mill as I cannot find anyone who knows for sure. I bet C&G do, if you were doing a project like this you wouldn’t do it stone cold alone. Good Luck Ray, I think you will need it!

#24 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 23:56

I recently saw and photographed the car in Autostadt. The chassis plate was clearly visible and it stated that it was car no. 13 (compare this with the no. 15 in previous posts) and that it was built in 1936 at Horch.

Posted Image

I hope somewhere else on the car it states more clearly what it really is. I thought that real 1936 chassis numbers were in the form of 760xx.

#25 David McKinney

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 05:44

And the chassis-plate's hardly faded at all in 70 years :lol:

#26 Gary Davies

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 06:11

Originally posted by David McKinney
And the chassis-plate's hardly faded at all in 70 years :lol:


Ah well  ;) ...
Posted Image

#27 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 09:07

There was much talk about how well the Lotus 49 had polished up after its minor fire damage...

#28 Mallory Dan

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 11:24

I think the Oscar Christien March 762 was real... And beautiful too.

#29 Holger Merten

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 09:41

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
Does anyone know why C&G will not be building any additional Auto Unions?


I think this is part of the contracts with Audi. Not to use the forms and know how for building a AU production line. Otherwise C%G will build more cars, than AU did ever. :p

#30 David M. Kane

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 13:45

I know what I will doing with my Tonbridge Pounds...

#31 bradbury west

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 16:08

These old A-Us scrub up really well, just like the P3 Alfa which remained well concealed under the Multi Union for so many years.............................they must be even more durable than 45 year old Formula Juniors on their original chassis etc. Such advanced anti-corrosion chassis protection makes Waxoyl irrelevant.

I would still like an AU, or much better still a Rosani Lancia D24

RL

#32 oldtimer

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 19:21

Referring to the second picture in post #1: Surely Bernie could have afforded to put on original tread pattern rear tyres.

Anyway, it looks better than the CMC model, which is not to downgrade the latter.

How about calling such cars 1:1 scale models? It would side-step the replica/reproduction/restoration labelling difficulties.

#33 chrisj

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 04:56

I had no idea a firm such as Crosthwaite & Gardiner existed before I read this thread. So of course, wanting to fill this void in my education, I spent half a day of the company's time trolling the web to learn everything I could about C & G. Amazing! As an aside, whenever a famous vintage racing car is described as residing in "a private collection in Switzerland", are they referring to Bernie?

#34 BRG

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 10:38

Originally posted by oldtimer
Surely Bernie could have afforded to put on original tread pattern rear tyres.

If the car is a phony, what would be the 'original pattern'??

#35 Wolf

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 11:51

Originally posted by BRG
If the car is a phony, what would be the 'original pattern'??


BRG, I guess something like this (not that I would have noticed, as Oldtimer did) :

Posted Image

#36 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 11:55

Originally posted by Henk Vasmel
I recently saw and photographed the car in Autostadt. The chassis plate was clearly visible and it stated that it was car no. 13 (compare this with the no. 15 in previous posts) and that it was built in 1936 at Horch.

Posted Image

I hope somewhere else on the car it states more clearly what it really is. I thought that real 1936 chassis numbers were in the form of 760xx.


I think that the word "bogus" immediately comes to mind upon seeing this "chassis plate."

#37 Bruce_Williams

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 13:57

I seem to remember reading that Keith Roach's coachbuilding company had been employed by Audi to manufacture several Auto Union bodies ?



Seems like they have, look at roachmanufacturingltd.com

#38 Seppi_0_917PA

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 15:39

Originally posted by Henk Vasmel
I recently saw and photographed the car in Autostadt. The chassis plate was clearly visible and it stated that it was car no. 13 (compare this with the no. 15 in previous posts) and that it was built in 1936 at Horch.

Posted Image

I hope somewhere else on the car it states more clearly what it really is. I thought that real 1936 chassis numbers were in the form of 760xx.

This chassis plate also indicates "Typ C" (lower left). My understanding from this thread -

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=48893

- is that Auto Union did not use the "Typ A/B/C/D/E" designation during the period when these cars were built.

#39 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 16:14

Originally posted by chrisj
As an aside, whenever a famous vintage racing car is described as residing in "a private collection in Switzerland", are they referring to Bernie?

Well, possibly, but Bernie's collection lives in a hangar at Biggin Hill ....

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#40 Bruce_Williams

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 17:15

Seems like they have, look at roachmanufacturingltd.com



Opps I should of typed roachmanufacturing.co.uk

#41 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 17:42

If one looks at the Auto-Union Identification? thread it become a bit more apparent that the "chassis plate" is something that was fitted, ah, "retroactively" to the car.

#42 f1steveuk

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 18:43

Bernie has more than one shed!! Yes there are two collections at Biggin, and one in Switzerland

#43 Brun

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 21:34

Originally posted by VWV
Thanks Tim for the excellent pictures. :up:

These pics remind me of some unanswered questions I have on the currently existing Auto Unions (original and recreations) that I never got around to asking as TNF has gone on a Silver Arrows sabatical lately.

1. Looks like the list on 8W http://8w.forix.com/au-lineup.html has to be updated. See the list below:


You are right, history has catched up on us. We'll have to put the new twin-blower Typ D in the list, as well as Bernie's life-size Airfix kit.


2. In the Auto Union: Mysterious History thread http://forums.autosp...y=&pagenumber=3
Doug Nye asked at question in post 82 about the existance of another V-16 show car. Has anymore information come to light since then?

I never found anything on it. It's quite likely that such a car existed. Wouldn't have been hard to build it - they could've taken used bits from racing cars and piece it together it in a couple of spare afternoons. But who knows what happened to it during the war and the bombing raids.



3. What about the car that Alexandrow said had been smuggled out a few years back?


Personally, I think it's a fake story. Alexandrow's style of presenting rumours as facts has been a topic on TNF in the past.


4. What's the story about the C-type being built in Austrailia? What is it's current status?


I'd like to know that too?

By the way, the car in Autostadt, Wolfsburg is of course a replica. It's mentioned in the 8W list. As far as the chassis plate goes - it's completely made up. Auto Union never put 'Typ C' on a plate; they catalogued the cars according to year and displacement.

And just for fun: there are some pictures and movies on this site. Cars featured are three replicas: the D'Ieteren Typ A and Audi's Typ C and D. If you listen closely to the engine sounds in those movies, you'll hear that the Typ C was driving really hard. The other two cars more or less cruised around, their drivers afraid of scratching the paint.

#44 RTH

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Posted 02 February 2007 - 15:05

Hopefully this is a suitable place.

With an Auto Union coming up for auction soon ...........they expect it to break the £5.5 M record held by a Royale !..... this is an article just appeared about the marque

http://www.pistonhea...sp?c=52&i=15813

#45 oldtimer

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Posted 02 February 2007 - 19:05

Originally posted by RTH
Hopefully this is a suitable place.

With an Auto Union coming up for auction soon ...........they expect it to break the £5.5 M record held by a Royale !..... this is an article just appeared about the marque

http://www.pistonhea...sp?c=52&i=15813


Very much a suitable place!!

I still marvel at those pictures of Nuvolari dwarfed in the D-types.

#46 AU1000S

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 06:00

I can't afford to go to the auction so I made my own type C/D .
Posted Image

#47 RTH

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 07:38

Can you tell us more about it ?

#48 Macca

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 15:17

Not an A-U, and not for sale AFAIK, but another one of BCE's:

http://www.racecar.c...rypicture32.jpg


Paul M

#49 Doug Nye

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 11:31

Originally posted by Brun
As far as the chassis plate goes - it's completely made up. Auto Union never put 'Typ C' on a plate; they catalogued the cars according to year and displacement.


Absolutely correect - these plates were indeed 'made up' and their inaccurate-to-period style is not a demonstration of ignorance but a C&G declaration TO EVERYBODY WITH THE WIT TO APPRECIATE IT that this is a replica NOT to be confused with the real thing... These are engineers with their hearts in the right place.

DCN

#50 RTH

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 12:28

This is from Keith Roach's website they made some AU recreation bodies.

http://www.racecar.c...y/picture02.htm

http://www.racecar.c...y/picture24.htm