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Lost F2 stars


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#1 Racer.Demon

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Posted 24 August 2000 - 14:01

As I was browsing the 70s and 80s F2 results just recently, I was again amazed by the sheer quality of the entry in those days. Compare this to modern F3000 and you will be baffled.

Almost all points finishes in those 15 years were taken by drivers who would go on to do great things in F1 (or would at least just go on to have their spell in F1) or have become outstanding sportscar or touring car drivers by themselves.

Only on occasion I found a name which hasn't come up in either F1, sportscars or touring cars. Among them are drivers who won races or were regular point scorers at the least. I haven't heard of them since their F2 days were numbered.

So, does anyone know what happened to Xavier Perrot, Carlos Ruesch, Colin Vandervell, Jacques Coulon, Jean-Pierre Paoli, Gabriele Serblin, Duilio Truffo, Giancarlo Martini, Rad Dougall, Piero Necchi, Oscar Pedersoli, Carlo Rossi, Richard Dallest, Roberto del Castello or Pierre Petit?



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#2 Pb

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Posted 24 August 2000 - 19:24

Demon,
Giancarlo Martini was a relative of Pierluigi Martini the ex-F1 driver. I'm not sure if uncle or father...the former I think. He took part in a non-championship F1 race at Brands Hatch one year in a Ferrari 312 T (yes, the car that brought Lauda to the title in '75).
Pb.

#3 Marcel Schot

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Posted 24 August 2000 - 20:09

Giancarlo Martini was indeed Pierluigi's uncle. He did reasonably well in Italian F3 in the late 70's and took part in the Aurora F1 Series in 1978 I believe. As to what has happened with him afterwards...blank file. Search on his name in searchengines gives a lot of links to things relating to the Florence Linux usergroup, so maybe he's gone the techie way :)

#4 Racer.Demon

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Posted 24 August 2000 - 20:43

Ah Marcel,

The uncle part was a well-known fact to me, and somewhere I even should have got a picture of Giancarlo driving that No.36 Ferrari for Scuderia Everest - seriously! - in the 1976 RoC and Int'l Trophy (in the 021 chassis). And if I don't, I know Rob Ryder is your man.

(BTW, these races had hugely strange entries. You'll have a ball going through the 1979 RoC line-up!)

Originally posted by Marcel Schot
As to what has happened with him afterwards...blank file.


But you'll understand it's the "blank file" part I'm after! Just as with the other guys that seem to have just disappeared...

M.


#5 Marcel Schot

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Posted 25 August 2000 - 10:54

RD : obviously it's the blank part :) That's also one of the joys of 8w..where are they now? Pretty simple for some, a bit more difficult for others

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 August 2000 - 11:50

..and particularly difficult for the simple ones...

#7 Huw Jenjin

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Posted 25 August 2000 - 12:02

i have a feeling I saw Martini in a Ferrari at Silverstone aswell, and for some reason it had a black Airbox instead of a white one. Any explanations out there?

I remember Xavier Perrot won at the Nurburgring in a yellow F2 March in 1970 or 71, but have a feeling that he got connected with the Connew project. Dallest- didn't he test or race an F1 Ensign?

What is interesting about the F2 people is the ones that dominated F2 but bombed in F1, and the ones that did nothing spectacular in F2 but shone in F1.

#8 Racer.Demon

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Posted 25 August 2000 - 13:11

Yes Huw, he also raced in the International Trophy and you remembered well about the black airbox.

Here's the picture (courtesy of Rob Ryder) to prove it:

Posted Image

I have no explanation for the black airbox, other than this not being a works entry but one from Scuderia Everest. Everest? Yes, the condom manufacturer. Let me think: rubber = black?

Marcel: this picture would have been a wonderful candidate for the extra devious Christmas game we have planned... Oh, well. :)


#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 August 2000 - 21:32

Was it a buy drive or a pay drive? The question that begs is: "Was he paid in cash or kind?"

#10 Rob Ryder

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Posted 26 August 2000 - 15:52

I have been reading the great threads in this Forum for quite some time, but have never posted a message. As my name has been mentioned twice already in this thread (regarding Giancarlo Martini), I thought I'd better come out from under my stone an post something. Does that mean I am a 'lurker'??

At the 1976 Race of Champions Martini was entered by Scuderia Everest, but was actually run by Scuderia Minardi. He qualified 2nd last, but as this was his first F1 race his time could be thought 'reasonable', being only 5 seconds slower than Lauda who was on the front row in the new 312-T2. Martini did not actually take part in the race because he stuffed the car on the warm-up lap! I have a picture taken during one of the practice sessions and shows that at Brands
he ran with the white air-box. I do not know how to include it in this reply (anyone help?) so if anyone would like a copy drop me a personal mail.

At the Daily Express International Trophy he did better, qualifying ahead of Ickx, Neve and Kessel. He managed to keep it all together in the race, finishing 10th one lap down on James Hunt.

Maybe I should start joining in these interesting threads, instead if just reading them and enjoying the opinions of those with more knowledge than myself?

Rob

#11 Marcel Schot

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Posted 26 August 2000 - 17:12

Rob,

You're really too modest. You obviously know a lot and any posts like this one are very much worth reading.

As to posting images, this is explained here : http://www.atlasf1.c...p?action=bbcode

Please keep up the great posts :)

PS, In case you don't succeed in posting the image, you can mail it to me and I'll post it for you

RD,

I'm scared already for what's coming in that competition. I think I'll tell my boss I'll take a couple of week's off :) At least I know in what corner to look now ;)


#12 Dave Ware

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Posted 26 August 2000 - 20:28

Those were indeed great days.

I seem to think that Colin Vandervell retired. Possibly to resume a business career?

YES! This thread had sufficiently sparked my interest that I got off my butt, walked downstairs, searched for the book in question, did not find it, walked all the way back upstairs to the second floor, looked in my bedroom, and found Barrie Gill's "Motor Sport Yearbook 1974".

I hope this monumental physical effort will be appreciated.

Vandervell wrote the chapter on the 1973 Formula Atlantic season. At the end he wrote "Because I consider that my future lies more with my business interests than with motor racing, I have decided to retire from single seater racing."

I sure don't know about Jacques Coulon, but when we was in F2 he was also a University Lecturer. And he was thirty-ish in 1973. A bit old to be stepping up to F1. I would suspect that the opporutinty to progress never happened, his F2 ride ended, and he returned to his normal career. But this is just speculation.

How about Jose Dohlem, or Ingo Hoffman? Or Michel Leclere?

Interesting point Huw made: What is interesting about the F2 people is the ones that dominated F2 but bombed in F1, and the ones that did nothing spectacular in F2 but shone in F1.

Without reserching the issue, I wonder if the latter group (did nothing much in F2 but shone in F1) were perceived as so talented that they didn't stay in F2 long enough to win the championship, while those in the former group (dominated F2 but bombed in F1) were perceived as less talented and therefore had the time to spend in F2 that was necessary to win the championship.

Dave



#13 KzKiwi

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Posted 26 August 2000 - 21:20

One of the names mentioned in the opening thread was Jean-Pierre Paoli. Didnt Alain Prost adopt him as his likely predecessor (Protege) and assist and encouragement him? Alan Jones apparently did this to Mike Thackwell early in his career when he was racing in the British Formula 3 series.

How many more of this group were taken on as proteges by known drivers of the respective periods?

#14 Marcel Schot

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Posted 26 August 2000 - 22:09

Ingo Hoffman is currently driving stockcars in Brazil.

A recent news item on Globo.com (http://www.globo.com...0723/4mhk3c.htm) mentions he's leading the championship together with Chico Serra.

#15 Marcor

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Posted 27 August 2000 - 04:35

José Dolhelm, half-brother of Didier Pironi, took part in only one GP, the 1974 US GP. He withdrew after Austrian Helmut Koinigg's fatal accident. They drove a Surtees TS16 like several other drivers that season including Carlos Pace, Jochen Mass, Derek Bell, Dieter Quester, Jean-Pierre Jabouille and Leo Kinnunen.

He stopped to race a few later. He was a businessman involved in powerboating (but I'm not really sure). Less than one year after the fatal Offshore's crash of Didier Pironi, José Dolhelm was killed in a private aeroplane crash (16 April 1988 near St-Etienne, France).
I remember to read his obituary.

Less sad, as F2 "stars", you could add in the list Claude Bourgoignie, Willy Braillard, Bernard de Dryver, Pierre Dieudonné, Thierry Tassin, Didier Theys. All those Belgian drivers never went to F1 GP but were (or are - like Thierry Tassin, a TV consultant and multi-winner of The 24 H of Spa, and Didier Theys) very active a long time...
You probably know some of them.

When I say F1 GP I don't think about Aurora Series or stuff like that.

#16 Marcel Schot

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Posted 27 August 2000 - 08:26

De Dryver sort of made it to F1 at the 1977 Belgian Grand Prix. He qualified 31st, 1 second short of a spot on the grid, but ahead of Hector Rebaque. He was scheduled to drive a de Tomaso in the 1996 BPR Spa 4 Hours GT race, but only Thorkild Thyrring and Chad Wentzel drove the car. (Old websites do have their charm :) http://www.p9.com/spa_preview.html ) But in 1996 he did take part in the Philippe Charriol Supersports Trophy for Lamborghini Diablo's.

In 1987 De Dryver was 2nd at Le Mans with Pierre Yver and Jurgen Laessig in a Porsche. In 1990 he competed again with Phillipe Alliot and Patrick Gonin, finishing 16th.

Another surprise place De Dryver turns up : Formula 3000 in 1988! He tried to qualify at Zolder, but failed.

Theys ofcourse went pretty big in Indycars in the late 80's

#17 Paul Hartshorne

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Posted 27 August 2000 - 18:59

De Dryver was part owner of the F3000 team that he drove for. It was a Belgian team called something like Automotorsports and their cars were painted black, red and yellow (as per the Belgian national flag). The team also owned several Arrows A6 F1 cars and would run them at various circuits for amateurs to have a crack in a real F1 car. Someone does something similar these days with old AGS cars.

Thierry Tassin had one of the most violent accidents that I have ever witnessed with my own eyes, right in front of me at Silverstone in the 1986 International Trophy. Also one of the most stupid and needless accidents!

His car had broken down, but instead of driving off of the circuit immediately, he undid his belts and was stand up half out of the car as it trundled along the straight in heavy rain. Inevitably he was hit from behind by an unsighted Dominique Delestre.

Tassin sustained serious arm injuries, having been almost thrown from his car, effectively ending his single-seater career (although hid one more F3000 race). Delestre was also badly injured and this encouraged him to retire and concentrate on running his Apomatox team.


#18 Marcel Schot

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Posted 27 August 2000 - 19:00

Courtesy of Rob Ryder, here are 2 more pictures of Giancarlo Martini in the Scuderia Everest/Minardi Ferrari

Posted Image

Posted Image


#19 C F Eick

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Posted 29 August 2000 - 13:27

I've been reading the German "auto, motor und sport"-magazines from 1981 lately and I'm sure I saw Giancarlo Martini's name in a F1 race report somewhere. He didn't qualify though, but it seems that he was involved in F1 racing well into the 80's. Does anybody know more on this?

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#20 Flicker

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Posted 29 August 2000 - 14:22

Sept 09, 1984 ITALY, Monza - Pierluigi Martini DNQ at the wheel of Toleman-Hart TG184...

#21 C F Eick

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Posted 29 August 2000 - 14:38

Nope, we're talking GIANCARLO Martini and now I'm sure it was in 1981.

#22 Flicker

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Posted 29 August 2000 - 15:11

Hmm...
In 1981 only 9 Italians tasted F1 Championship races.
-E.De Angelis (Lotus)
-R.Patrese (Arrows)
-B.Giacomelli (Alfa Romeo)
-de Cesaris (McLaren)
-Siegfried Stohr (Arrows)
-M.Alboreto (Tyrrell)
-Piercarlo Ghinzani (Osella) Belgium+ Monaco-dnq
-Beppe Gabbiani (Osella) in all GPs except Argentine, but started only three times: USA, RSM & BELGIUM
-Giorio Francia (Osella) Spain - dnq.

So... The Q. is - where do you think Giancarlo was entered?

#23 Flicker

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Posted 29 August 2000 - 15:21

Posted Image
Try this site about Pierluigi, were you can find some facts about his family: http://home5.swipnet...ero/family.html

#24 Racer.Demon

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Posted 31 August 2000 - 22:06

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
So, does anyone know what happened to Xavier Perrot, Carlos Ruesch, Colin Vandervell, Jacques Coulon, Jean-Pierre Paoli, Gabriele Serblin, Duilio Truffo, Giancarlo Martini, Rad Dougall, Piero Necchi, Oscar Pedersoli, Carlo Rossi, Richard Dallest, Roberto del Castello or Pierre Petit?


So we have Martini, Perrot, Vandervell and Coulon at least partly covered. No-one for one of the others? Or did they just silently disappear from the sport altogether?


#25 Marcel Schot

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Posted 01 September 2000 - 13:42

A bit of checking around on Carlos Ruesch found out:

1966 Argentinean Touring Car, 1st Class B
1968 Turismo Carratera, 8th, 9 points
1971 Formula 2, 17th, 3 points
  • 17 OCT : Vallelunga, 4th, Brabham BT36-Cosworth
1972 Formula 2, 11th, 11 points
  • 09 JUL : Oesterreichring, 7th, Surtees TS10-Ford
  • 20 AUG : Enna, 3rd, Surtees TS10-Ford
  • 24 SEP : Albi, 6th, Surtees TS10-Ford

Nothing after his F2 days though :(


#26 Marcel Schot

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Posted 05 September 2000 - 11:48

Carlo Rossi:

See http://www.drivingcamp.it/ENG/HOME.HTM : not only Siegfried Stohr has a drivingschool

Similar to Stohr, he was Beta backed in his racing career as well as with his drivingschool.

From F3 days:
Posted Image

1979 : Formula 3
  • 18 MAR Vallelunga 3rd Ralt-Toyota
1980 : Formula 3 (Ralt RT1)
1981 : Formula 2, 13th, 6 points
  • 29 MAR Silverstone 5th Toleman TG280-Hart
  • 05 APR Hockenheim 6th Toleman TG280-Hart
  • 08 JUN Pau 4th Toleman TG280-Hart


#27 Racer.Demon

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Posted 05 September 2000 - 21:39

That's Marcel for you! He just keeps plugging away in all of his sources.

It's much appreciated, mate.


#28 Marcor

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Posted 06 September 2000 - 03:05

After a "fast" research on the web, I've found that:

Jean-Pierre Paoli was associated for a long time with the team Ligier. In 1992 he had enough to be team manager and he was replaced by Hindenoch. At this time the team was sold to Cyril de Rouvre then Flavio Briatore.

Richard Dallest scored three points in the 1986 F3000 championship. He was fourth at Pau and his AGS JH20 B Cosworth was entered by Danielson.

Roberto del Castello was involved in the « Superturismo » Italian Championship in 1997.

Duilio Truffo was director of Quattroruote’s Safe Driving School (once more !) in Italy. In 1998 he drove a Ferrari 550 Maranello which became the fastest production sports car in the world. With Csaba Csere, editor of the American publication Car & Driver magazine, he shattered three land speed records, travelling at more than 188 mph. The triple record attempt was staged at the Transportation Research Centre in Columbus, Ohio in the USA, in October 1998. The 550 Maranello reached speeds similar to those of an F1 Grand Prix car on the 7.5 mile Ohio circuit. The 550 Maranello was entirely standard, with just a rollcage, fire extinguisher system and a tyre temperature gauge fitted for safety. You can read the report here : http://nfs.thegamers...f550/press.html

Gabriele Serblin would be the President of a Golf Club but I’m not sure. This could be an homonym...


#29 Prostfan

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Posted 26 January 2003 - 22:46

Is Oscar Pedersoli related to Carlo Pedersoli (=Bud Spencer), the hero of my childhood movies?

#30 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 January 2003 - 22:57

Rad Dougall is apparently now in South Africa, according to a reply from fellow racer Jeremy Rossiter (remember HIM?) on a thread at Ten-Tenths:

http://www.ten-tenth...&threadid=32636

Amazing - I'd never read this thread before Prostfan revived it and Dougall's name leapt out at me!!

#31 LittleChris

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 00:49

Bluddy 'Ell. Rad Dougall. Seem to remember him winning the Easter Monday
F2 race at Thruxton in a year old March . 1979 ?

#32 petefenelon

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 10:25

Originally posted by LittleChris
Bluddy 'Ell. Rad Dougall. Seem to remember him winning the Easter Monday
F2 race at Thruxton in a year old March . 1979 ?


Yeah but.... the 792 was positively canine - gargantuan, misunderstood ground effects, uglier than sin, the 782 probably should've won the championship if someone had perservered with it!

(in keeping with the grand tradition of Good March/Mad March -- you get things like 702 bad/712 good/722 bad; 732 pretty good (they must've hit a sweet spot - or was it just Jarier!); 742 good/752 bad; 762/772 buck the trend by both being OK; 782 good/792 bad/802 good.....)

Of course, most of the "bad" Marches still won races, but I've never heard a driver wax lyrical about the 722 or the 752 in the way they did about the 712 or 742 say...

pete

#33 stephen jenkins

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 14:07

Ah, the March 792. The first ever Autosport I bought, July? 1979, had one on the front cover. If I rememer correctly one of the ICI sponsored cars - Daly or South?

Anyway someone must love the 792, as I notice Minichamps have schedule production of several 1:43 scale models!

#34 petefenelon

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 15:53

Originally posted by stephen jenkins
Ah, the March 792. The first ever Autosport I bought, July? 1979, had one on the front cover. If I rememer correctly one of the ICI sponsored cars - Daly or South?

Anyway someone must love the 792, as I notice Minichamps have schedule production of several 1:43 scale models!


Good god -- I'd want someone to pay me to take a model of such a horror off my hands!
(anyone doing a 742,772P or 782 might get money from me :p)

pete

#35 fines

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 17:21

Originally posted by Prostfan
Is Oscar Pedersoli related to Carlo Pedersoli (=Bud Spencer), the hero of my childhood movies?

Well, they certainly don't look alike...

#36 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 23:45

Another of the lost F2-stars was Swede Eje Elgh , and just to tease Pete I have choosen to post a pic of him in this lovely 792 actually running for TIGA... :p

He ran much better though in Gustav Brunner's more beautiful Maurer's...;)

As one of the gai-jin pioneers he forged himself a long career in Japan after his F2 days.

Now he works as TV-commentator and he is also a team-owner in the Swedish Touring Car Championships.

Posted Image

#37 petefenelon

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 00:06

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg

He ran much better though in Gustav Brunner's more beautiful Maurer's...;)


Image deleted in order to help keep my supper down ;)

Those Maurers were indeed lovely cars but as I recall they seemed to have only a nodding acquaintance with the subtleties of the rulebook - if ever a team seemed to be, er, persecuted for its use of technology (there seemed to be skirt protests about Maurers nearly every race in '81-2) it seemed to be Maurer!

What was the deal there? Were they just way ahead of everyone else, were they heading into areas that were against the spirit but within the letter of the rules (or vice-versa), or were they just daft? I know they were damn quick for a while!

They also seemed to come and go very rapidly - I remember thinking they'd be team on the way up to F1, but they fizzled out not long after flat-bottoms came back to F2... did Herr Maurer have financial trouble?

(some lovely pictures of a later and very nicely-restored Maurer on http://www.sdsefi.co...es/sept00f2.htm ...)
pete

#38 fines

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 16:38

Well, for a start the Maurers were designed by Gustav Brunner, never one to draw slow cars! The side-pods were a flexible part of the bodywork, and would bend down under (aerodynamical) stress. The clever Brunner explained the design by saying the sidepods were designed felixible in order to give (i.e. bend upwards!) in case of an off-track excursion! AFAIR, they were never banned. Later there were troubles with variable suspensions (a lever would 'fix' the suspension in a 'down' position during driving, and release it to 'up' position in the pits) and so on, and Maurer had him draw an F1 car (the team would've mingled well in the Piranha Club :lol: ), but no sponsors could be found (Maurer had sold his "Mampe" liqueur business by then), and so Willi M. concentrated on (badly) managing Stefan Bellof's career.


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#39 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 16:59

Originally posted by petefenelon
(some lovely pictures of a later and very nicely-restored Maurer on http://www.sdsefi.co...es/sept00f2.htm ...)



I agree, what a little gem it really is.....!