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#451 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 22:43

Might well have been freshly delivered and not yet uncrated, but digging their grave alone would have been a mighty task. Scepticism prevails...but as I said, we would all love to be proved wrong.

I vividly remember my late father telling me how in 1946-47 crated and unused aero engines could be bought as war surplus, whereupon the pesky engines would be instantly scrapped because what the buyers really coveted was the timber from the crates...

DCN

I am with you Doug, it would be a huge hole to bury that many planes, even in semidisassembled form eg no wings, tail and possibly no engines either.Especially crated and sealed properly
One of the Clive Cussler books 'found' a few Mescershmitt fighters in a disused rail tunnel as war booty. I have read elsewhere that was based on truth. But 2 or3 not dozens.

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#452 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 22:47

A technical question that just occured to me. Those engines were obviously dry sumped. But how did they keep the oil in the tanks, as well a scavenge the engines when flying upside down, outside loops and the like. There must have been some smart engineering to make reliable oiling in those circumstances. For any piston engined fighter plane. Bombers and the like did not quite get up to those antics, or at least without taking the wings off!!

#453 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 22:55

Here in the rural Forest of Dean we are surrounded by hundreds of old mine shafts, many of which were used to dump war surplus material in the late 40s.
Brands new Jeeps, Harley Davidsons and tins of mustard gas(niiiiice!) are said to reside far beneath the oak trees...
However local rumour has it that most of the good stuff was rapidly hauled back to the surface and flogged off almost as soon as night fell!
No Spitfires however. Pity. :|

My brother has dived off the Pacific Islands at several locations. Where at wars end all the equipment was pushed off a jetty into the sea. There is aircraft, trucks, jeeps, lathes, milling machines, spares, 40" boats and lots more just dumped. Most it seems were new. This happened in a couple of locations. The footage is amazing. This is ofcourse hardly a secret.
Plus ofcourse some remote islands the stuff was just abandoned, some is still sitting where it was left.Both from the Japs and the Allies. Though severely scavenged of saleable, useable, easy to carry stuff.

#454 JtP1

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 00:36

My brother has dived off the Pacific Islands at several locations. Where at wars end all the equipment was pushed off a jetty into the sea. There is aircraft, trucks, jeeps, lathes, milling machines, spares, 40" boats and lots more just dumped. Most it seems were new. This happened in a couple of locations. The footage is amazing. This is ofcourse hardly a secret.
Plus ofcourse some remote islands the stuff was just abandoned, some is still sitting where it was left.Both from the Japs and the Allies. Though severely scavenged of saleable, useable, easy to carry stuff.


Most famous is Million $ point at Espiritu Santo. Everything the US sent to the Pacific was written off on leaving the west coast of the US except for ships and B29s. Million $ point is quoted to have contained enough construction equipement to have built every airfield in the Pacific completed since 1945.

#455 onelung

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:36

...each one also contained four Packard V12s, essentially Merlin copies...

Is this a reference to Packard built Merlins?
I believe many off shore high speed rescue craft were powered by Packard V 12's - a different beast to the afore mentioned, and owing nowt to Merlins.

#456 Wuzak

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:37

A technical question that just occured to me. Those engines were obviously dry sumped. But how did they keep the oil in the tanks, as well a scavenge the engines when flying upside down, outside loops and the like. There must have been some smart engineering to make reliable oiling in those circumstances. For any piston engined fighter plane. Bombers and the like did not quite get up to those antics, or at least without taking the wings off!!



Good question. I've never really thought about it before.

I guess the oil tank is a sealed unit, with the return lines having check valves fitted to prevent oil going the wrong way. The engines had de-aerators in the oil system. I think the scavenging mainly relied on the suction of the dry sump system, along with carefully designed oil flow paths.

The Daimler-Benz inverted engines (DB 601 and 605 at least) had different compression ratios for left and right banks. I can't recall if the reason was due to the differing intake paths (supercharger to one side, space for gun between banks) or that one bank consumed more oil than the other due to the direction of rotation.

#457 onelung

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:39

The Daimler-Benz inverted engines (DB 601 and 605 at least) had different compression ratios for left and right banks. I can't recall if the reason was due to the differing intake paths (supercharger to one side, space for gun between banks) or that one bank consumed more oil than the other due to the direction of rotation.

It was to allow for the (slightly) different stroke length for each bank - a result of the master/link conrod system.


#458 Wuzak

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:41

I am with you Doug, it would be a huge hole to bury that many planes, even in semidisassembled form eg no wings, tail and possibly no engines either.Especially crated and sealed properly
One of the Clive Cussler books 'found' a few Mescershmitt fighters in a disused rail tunnel as war booty. I have read elsewhere that was based on truth. But 2 or3 not dozens.


It depends on how much care was taken, I suppose.

In other areas a pit was dug and surplus equipment bulldozed in. As mentioned by others, some of it was dumped at sea.

There have long been rumours of Spitfires buried in a disused mine in Queensland.




#459 Wuzak

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:44

It was to allow for the (slightly) different stroke length for each bank - a result of the master/link conrod system.


Daimler-Benz V-12s did not use the master/link rod system, but like most other V-12s of the period used fork and blade type rods.

http://www.flightglo...01n-cutaway.jpg

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#460 Wuzak

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:51

This one from the Cutaways thread shows it better:

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#461 onelung

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:31

Daimler-Benz V-12s did not use the master/link rod system, but like most other V-12s of the period used fork and blade type rods.

http://www.flightglo...01n-cutaway.jpg

I suspect the Daimler-Benz 603 did in fact use master/link arrangement...?
Left side bank C.R. 7.5:1
Right side bank 7.3:1

#462 Wuzak

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:46

Here's a cutaway of the DB 605.

http://upload.wikime...605_cutaway.jpg

Wiki lists that has having 7.5/7.3 on 87 Octane fuel, 8.5/8.3 on 100 octane fuel.

I do not whether the DB 603 had the blade and fork rods for certain, but I suspect it did.

The Rolls-Royce R, as used in 1929, had blade and fork rods, but for 1931 had to be redesigned for master and link rod arrangement.

#463 onelung

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:05

Here's a cutaway of the DB 605.

http://upload.wikime...605_cutaway.jpg

Wiki lists that has having 7.5/7.3 on 87 Octane fuel, 8.5/8.3 on 100 octane fuel.

I do not whether the DB 603 had the blade and fork rods for certain, but I suspect it did.

The Rolls-Royce R, as used in 1929, had blade and fork rods, but for 1931 had to be redesigned for master and link rod arrangement.

All the above agreed, Wuzak - my source re the 603 is "Aircraft Piston Engines" by Herschel Smith McGraw-Hill 1981 ISBN 0-07-058472-9
An old one, but a good one. It may be possible to independantly verify this elsewhere. Independantly of Wiki, I mean...
As an aside, radial engines will also have the same stroke length variation as a result of the master/link feature.

Edited by onelung, 23 October 2012 - 03:05.


#464 Wuzak

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:32

All the above agreed, Wuzak - my source re the 603 is "Aircraft Piston Engines" by Herschel Smith McGraw-Hill 1981 ISBN 0-07-058472-9
An old one, but a good one. It may be possible to independantly verify this elsewhere. Independantly of Wiki, I mean...
As an aside, radial engines will also have the same stroke length variation as a result of the master/link feature.



As did the Vulture, an X-24 that also used the master/link road arrangement. And which contributed to its failure.

#465 onelung

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:54

As did the Vulture, an X-24 that also used the master/link road arrangement. And which contributed to its failure.

Looks like it's hat-eating time for me ... from http://www.focke-wulf190.com/db_603_2.htm a Wiki translation suggests the reason, and anything else I can call up showing the bottom (yeah ok...top) end of a 603 shows fork & blade. Mr Herschel Smith may have got it wrong somehow? I'm shattered!

"This was due to the one-sided arrangement of the charger and the charge air lines of different lengths." :blush:

Edited by onelung, 23 October 2012 - 03:55.


#466 Cargo

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:21

Some of the pics aren't of Spit's, but interesting:



Don't like the music, but the pictures of the crates and the packing arrangements (second half of vid) give hope that this story will have a happy ending...

Edited by Cargo, 23 October 2012 - 05:24.


#467 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:19

It depends on how much care was taken, I suppose.

In other areas a pit was dug and surplus equipment bulldozed in. As mentioned by others, some of it was dumped at sea.

There have long been rumours of Spitfires buried in a disused mine in Queensland.

Junked and pushed into an old mine is different to either complete or disassembled planes that were expected to be able to be used again. Though ofcourse that was in a fairly close time frame, not 70 years from when they were hidden.

#468 Odseybod

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:27

Some of the pics aren't of Spit's, but interesting:



Don't like the music, but the pictures of the crates and the packing arrangements (second half of vid) give hope that this story will have a happy ending...


Interesting (to me) that so many of htose shown towards then end are clipped-wing XIVs. But then I suppose their roel was primarily at low-altitude?



#469 cdrewett

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:51

Is this a reference to Packard built Merlins?
I believe many off shore high speed rescue craft were powered by Packard V 12's - a different beast to the afore mentioned, and owing nowt to Merlins.


Mavis has an ex-rescue craft Packard.
I mean the 42litre V12 powering Chris Williams' Packard Bentley. If you were at Cholmondeley PoP this year or last you may well have had your ankles singed by the sheets of flame from its 24 exhaust pipes. Why 24 for a V12? Two exhaust valves per cylinder.
Chris

#470 Allan Lupton

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:51

Don't like the music, but the pictures of the crates and the packing arrangements (second half of vid) give hope that this story will have a happy ending...

I don't think much of that is really relevant to Burma.
For example, the Spiteful prototype (NN664) appears rather often and the unpacking includes what is probably a Hurricane at 1:42.
If the Vb being uncrated at 1:50 is EP288 (that's what the number looks like to me) that was written off in 1944 in England.

#471 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:44

Slightly OT - B29s on Tinian Island in the Pacific in 1946.

Moratai, Dutch East Indies, 1948 - apparently this lot were still here with salvage negotiations going on until (sit down, just in case) 1988...when the government got fed up and sent in a mobile smelter. :cry:

For other examples have a look at THE AVIATION FORUM's "Scrapyard Photos" thread. One of the most mesmerizing threads I have ever found - but be warned it brings a tear to your eye and it takes hours(days!) to trawl through the 50+ pages properly.

WARNING If you can't stand the sight of Lancasters in scrapyards in the 1960s, or 'fire dumps' with half burned out Vulcans, best not look.


#472 D-Type

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:47

Does anybody know how far the Spitfires were broken down for shipping in crates?

Obviously there were limits on weight and size and a Spitfire weighs about 3 tons. The crates had to fit on a normal lorry as a Queen Mary wouldn't be available in Burma or other places outside Britain. They also had to pack well into ship's holds.

I would expect wings and tailplanes to be removed and crated separately. Maybe each wing was further subdivided into two elements to keep the size down. As the heaviest elements, the engines would probably have been crated up separately, likewise the landing gear. Maybe the fuselage was split into two pieces to keep the crate size down? So one Spitfire would mean five or six crates to bury, each the size of a truckload or part-truckload

#473 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:09

Some of the pics aren't of Spit's, but interesting:



Don't like the music, but the pictures of the crates and the packing arrangements (second half of vid) give hope that this story will have a happy ending...


Nice dream. Odd, though, how at least one of the photos amongst those of aircraft probably being UNcrated appears to have been taken at Gibraltar... I don't recall that being far enough east to be classified as Burma.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 23 October 2012 - 11:10.


#474 Wuzak

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:29

Interesting (to me) that so many of htose shown towards then end are clipped-wing XIVs. But then I suppose their roel was primarily at low-altitude?


Spitfire XIVs had their wings clipped because the extra loading on the airframe had caused skin wrinkling on the upper surface of the wing, and someone at the RAF thought that clipping the wings was required to keep the stresses down to an acceptable limit. Joseph Smith of Supermarines, on the other hand, felt that there was no need for concern.

The Spitfire XIV was arguably the finest high altitude fighter to see service during WW2. By the time they came into service there wasn't as much to fight at altitude anymore. But the wings weren't clipped for low altitude work.

Nor was that the case for Spitfire Vs with clipped wings in 1941/42. One of the areas of deficiency for the Spitfire V vs the Fw 190 was rate of roll. By clipping the wing tips (a field modification - unbolt the tips and bolt on caps) teh rate of roll was increase, but to teh detriment of climb rate and turning radius.

#475 Wuzak

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:32

Does anybody know how far the Spitfires were broken down for shipping in crates?

Obviously there were limits on weight and size and a Spitfire weighs about 3 tons. The crates had to fit on a normal lorry as a Queen Mary wouldn't be available in Burma or other places outside Britain. They also had to pack well into ship's holds.

I would expect wings and tailplanes to be removed and crated separately. Maybe each wing was further subdivided into two elements to keep the size down. As the heaviest elements, the engines would probably have been crated up separately, likewise the landing gear. Maybe the fuselage was split into two pieces to keep the crate size down? So one Spitfire would mean five or six crates to bury, each the size of a truckload or part-truckload


I would think each wing would be unbolted from the fuselage and positioned alongside the fuselage in the crate. The engine and propeller were most likely removed. I would think the number of crates would be kept to a minimum, so may be as simple as airframe and engine in separate crates.

#476 AAGR

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 13:13

I don't think I have missed this suggestion in the thread - but is anyone betting that nothing may be found, in the end ?

AAGR

:confused:

#477 kayemod

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 16:51

I don't think I have missed this suggestion in the thread - but is anyone betting that nothing may be found, in the end ?

AAGR

:confused:


According to this in today's Telegraph, no need to go all the way to the Far East to dig up old Spitfires, what's buried underneath your house?

http://www.telegraph...Birmingham.html


#478 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 17:59

... what's buried underneath your house?

As a small child I managed to accidentally bury one of these in the back garden. It's probably still there ... somewhere! :lol:

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#479 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 18:24

Graham, the betting amongst the historic aviation people I have heard from is very much on there being nothing reusable to be found, beyond maker's plates, and even that is most unlikely.

Yet there is also a unanimous hope amongst all the doubters that they/we are proved completely wrong, and something worthwhile is in fact found. From Burmese conditions that would be regarded as miraculous.

DCN

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#480 Cargo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 15:46

Nothing to do with Burma, but in today's Daily Mail, a nice sequence of photos of a Spit' being dismantled and prepared for transit - from the War Museum to Duxford.

http://www.dailymail...o=feeds-newsxml

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#481 Wuzak

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:29

Looks like we will soon have the answer as to the condition of the Spitfires.

http://www.dailymail...ld-War-Two.html

It is expected that the first Spitfire will be unburied in Burma in two weeks.

#482 elansprint72

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 15:15

On behalf of the owners of these aircraft (we the British tax-payers) I am grateful to Mr Cundall for going to all this trouble. No doubt they can be "struck back on charge" (well, if they can be "unburied", why not?) to the RAF, who could certainly make use of the money resulting from the sales.

Good to read in the Mail that they may have been protected from "erosion" before they were buried. Top class journalism... again.

#483 Sharman

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 15:30

On behalf of the owners of these aircraft (we the British tax-payers) I am grateful to Mr Cundall for going to all this trouble. No doubt they can be "struck back on charge" (well, if they can be "unburied", why not?) to the RAF, who could certainly make use of the money resulting from the sales.

Good to read in the Mail that they may have been protected from "erosion" before they were buried. Top class journalism... again.


..and I thought you were a little more discerning than that...

#484 D-Type

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 16:57

Interesting, the Mail article says:

The contract allowing the dig to go ahead will see the Burmese Government take 50 per cent of the value of aircraft recovered while Mr Cundall's share will be 30 per cent and his agent 20 per cent.

No doubt Mr Cundall will have to pay for everything up to when they have something to sell. And how much of the 50% will go to individuals in the Burmese Government, I wonder.

Edited by D-Type, 07 January 2013 - 16:58.


#485 Pullman99

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 17:42

Sad to hear of an accident today at East Midlands Airport (Donington) to Rolls-Royce's Spitfire PR XIX PS853 (registered G-RRGN). Pilot OK but the accident was a wheels up landing. Airport closed for at least two hours. Aircraft had recently been rebuilt over a two-year period at Duxford. Hopefully it can be rebuilt again.

BBC Report - East Midlands Airport Spitfire accident

Edited by Pullman99, 07 January 2013 - 18:36.


#486 john winfield

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 17:47

Here in South Nottinghamshire, I heard an interesting noise up in the sky this afternoon. I went outside to see a Spitfire circling around, doing a few loops, thundering over the fields and generally having some fun. Sadly it crashed a short time later while attempting to land at East Midlands Airport; apparently the undercarriage collapsed. I believe the pilot is not seriously injured, but I don't know the the extent of damage to the plane.

Edit. Sorry Ian, was typing while you posted.

Edited by john winfield, 07 January 2013 - 17:48.


#487 D-Type

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 18:18

The important thing is that the pilot is OK.

Given the will and enough money the aircraft can be repaired.

#488 kayemod

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 18:21

The important thing is that the pilot is OK.

Given the will and enough money the aircraft can be repaired.


A competent WW2 RAF ground crew would have had it back in the air next day.


#489 retriever

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 19:01

Slightly OT - B29s on Tinian Island in the Pacific in 1946.

Moratai, Dutch East Indies, 1948 - apparently this lot were still here with salvage negotiations going on until (sit down, just in case) 1988...when the government got fed up and sent in a mobile smelter. :cry:

For other examples have a look at THE AVIATION FORUM's "Scrapyard Photos" thread. One of the most mesmerizing threads I have ever found - but be warned it brings a tear to your eye and it takes hours(days!) to trawl through the 50+ pages properly.

WARNING If you can't stand the sight of Lancasters in scrapyards in the 1960s, or 'fire dumps' with half burned out Vulcans, best not look.


There were a number of 'Desert Boneyard' type books published in the 1990s and early 2000s including one by that name - although on the U.S. Military scene they make fascinating reading and are highly illustrated. Most focus on aircraft stored at the Davis-Monthan facility in Tuscon, Arizona.

#490 elansprint72

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 19:17

..and I thought you were a little more discerning than that...


Merely quoting from the link in the immediately preceding post.

However, having just Googled the unfortunate accident at EMA, imagine my surprise when the Daily Mail turned out to be the top reference!

They said:

"A Spitfire crash-landed today, closing a major airport and causing flight delays.

The vintage aircraft, famed for its use by the RAF during the Second World War, blew its front wheel as it touched down at East Midlands Airport.

While the aircraft’s pilot, the only person on board, emerged unscathed, his plane was stranded on the runway."

The piece goes on to show photos of two completely different Spitfires, one a two-seater and the other with contra-rotating props, yet both captioned as the aircraft involved in the incident.


The Prosecution's case rests, M'Lud.

Edited by elansprint72, 07 January 2013 - 19:28.


#491 Wuzak

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:11

http://www.bangkokpo...pitfire-hunters

The researchers have inserted a camera into the crate although they have so far been unable to confirm the contents because of muddy water obscuring visibility.



#492 kayemod

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:40

http://www.bangkokpo...pitfire-hunters


And this is the Telegraph version.

http://www.telegraph...tain-plane.html

Hardly unexpected that a crate buried in that area for all that time should fill with water, but surely there can't be much hope for aircraft parts buried in there? Sounds like very bad news indeed to me, I hope not of course, but the doom-merchants could well be proved to have been right all along.


#493 cdrewett

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:41

And this is the Telegraph version.

http://www.telegraph...tain-plane.html

Hardly unexpected that a crate buried in that area for all that time should fill with water, but surely there can't be much hope for aircraft parts buried in there? Sounds like very bad news indeed to me, I hope not of course, but the doom-merchants could well be proved to have been right all along.


I believe that muddy water could be a better preservative than an air/water mix.

#494 Cargo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 20:12

And this is the Telegraph version.

http://www.telegraph...tain-plane.html

Hardly unexpected that a crate buried in that area for all that time should fill with water, but surely there can't be much hope for aircraft parts buried in there? Sounds like very bad news indeed to me, I hope not of course, but the doom-merchants could well be proved to have been right all along.


Kaymod, I have to agree with you. More (I think) than any other TNFer, I've become very, very interested in this project since it was first announced, and have been eagerly waiting reports of a "first contact" (a picture from the bottom of a bore-hole or similar) with one of the crates. But am now filled with doom and gloom. The fact that the crate is full of "muddy water" is absolutely terrible news. How Mr Cundall can describe this development as "encouraging" I don't know, but guess he has to put a brave face on things to his backers who've fronted up the money. He says that pumping out the water "may take some time". You bet it will! The crate obviously leaks so they'll need to pump the surrounding area dry as well - to a radius of a 50/100 yards or more before the water stops leaking back into the crate. This can be done. But the likely cost of pumps/manpower/time and money to do this may now be beyond what the expedition has. I venture these opinions here because drilling/pumping and excavation are areas where i have some knowledge, particularly the costings of such projects. I believe the current project has a budget of about $500,000, which "sounds about right" to me for the recovery one dry crate from a dry-ish compacted mud/soil environment. But if the crates are below the water table, and flooded, I reckon the recovery costs have now increased 10-fold while the value of the crate contents has diminished by a similar amount.

But maybe the value will be even less than that - what will be salvageable after a 60 year immersion?

Probably just the engine block ... $500 ...

I hope for the best, but really, the auguries ain't good..

This, my 2c from an "armchair-expert" 6,000 miles away from Burma.

Well, anyway, good luck Mr Cundall.

#495 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 21:55

A couple of years ago I visited the Catalina flying boat at Lake Boga Victoria. There was a [broken] radial engine laying seemingly where dumped after the war and the crankcase had corroded through. So engines left underground full of water may be scrap, and not much probably. Though if the crates are sealed properly maybe there will be alot of useable parts.

#496 stuartbrs

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 22:23

Water always finds a way...

#497 Doug Nye

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 22:41

I'm quite encouraged to hear they have even found a crate...

I don't know how salty Burmese ground water might be, but just before Christmas I had a look at a previously wonderful early-'30s classic that had been caught in the New York floods. Seawater and a connected live battery, plus magnesium and aluminium engine, gearbox and back-axle casings, create a passable colander very, very quickly indeed. During its three or four days underwater it must have been fizzing like an Alka-Selzer. Steel gears, shafts and bearings were plainly visible with no need to 'remove' the perforated castings... The damage was simply incredible considering such relatively brief immersion. Lloyd's of London takes another hit...

DCN

#498 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
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Posted 11 January 2013 - 00:47

As long as the chassis numbers can be saved... :drunk:

#499 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
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Posted 12 January 2013 - 00:34

I'm quite encouraged to hear they have even found a crate...

I don't know how salty Burmese ground water might be, but just before Christmas I had a look at a previously wonderful early-'30s classic that had been caught in the New York floods. Seawater and a connected live battery, plus magnesium and aluminium engine, gearbox and back-axle casings, create a passable colander very, very quickly indeed. During its three or four days underwater it must have been fizzing like an Alka-Selzer. Steel gears, shafts and bearings were plainly visible with no need to 'remove' the perforated castings... The damage was simply incredible considering such relatively brief immersion. Lloyd's of London takes another hit...

DCN

Doug, many years ago I saw a total non classic, a late 60s VW that had been dumped for less than a week in very salty water,[tidal estuary] the crank and gears where visible through the hi magnesium alloy cases. The metal was fine in that short period

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#500 D-Type

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:47

Let us hope that the water in the Spitfires' crates was free of salt and of oxygen.