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#501 Mal9444

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 15:01

Doug, many years ago I saw a total non classic, a late 60s VW that had been dumped for less than a week in very salty water,[tidal estuary] the crank and gears where visible through the hi magnesium alloy cases. The metal was fine in that short period

A couple of years ago the bracket holding the (aluminium engine block) outboard motor on the back of my little sailing cruiser sheared and the outboard (running hard in astern) hopped off across the surface for a couple of feet before disappearing 'neath the briny. Fortunately it was in only few feet of water and I was able within 10 minutes to find it and grapple it back on board. I called my friendly marine engineer for advice and he said 'if you can get it here within the hour we might save - otherwise just throw it in the skip...' True: salt water and alluminium do not go well together - despite the fact that there are any number of alluminium boats. Even on those corrosion is an ever-present problem.

Edited by Mal9444, 13 January 2013 - 15:04.


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#502 BRMfan

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 16:46

A couple of years ago the bracket holding the (aluminium engine block) outboard motor on the back of my little sailing cruiser sheared and the outboard (running hard in astern) hopped off across the surface for a couple of feet before disappearing 'neath the briny. Fortunately it was in only few feet of water and I was able within 10 minutes to find it and grapple it back on board. I called my friendly marine engineer for advice and he said 'if you can get it here within the hour we might save - otherwise just throw it in the skip...' True: salt water and alluminium do not go well together - despite the fact that there are any number of alluminium boats. Even on those corrosion is an ever-present problem.


That reminds me of my father who when we were returning after a sail he dropped a "seagull "outboard over the stern of our boat whilst attaching it. He rescued it the next day when the tide was out and it worked for years after

#503 Catalina Park

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:23

Not all aluminiums are the same. They use the term 'alloy' for a reason. What you use in an aircraft is not usually what you would want in a boat.

#504 Pullman99

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:17

...just before Christmas I had a look at a previously wonderful early-'30s classic that had been caught in the New York floods. Seawater and a connected live battery, plus magnesium and aluminium engine, gearbox and back-axle casings, create a passable colander very, very quickly indeed. During its three or four days underwater it must have been fizzing like an Alka-Selzer. Steel gears, shafts and bearings were plainly visible with no need to 'remove' the perforated castings... The damage was simply incredible considering such relatively brief immersion. Lloyd's of London takes another hit...DCN


That's a very unfortunate outcome but, I suppose, inevitable given the awful devastation caused by the storm. In the grand scale of things, with enormous dsruption and tragedy experienced by so many residents, maybe a trifle insignificant too. I sent an email expressing concern to the New York Subway Museum in Brooklyn although I believe that they did not suffer any significant damage. It's always easy in hindsight to suggest taking appropriate steps to protect such items as historic vehicles but, from the reports carried by the UK news media, the circumstances of this event must have been overwhelming.

#505 bradbury west

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 13:08

Water always finds a way...


Especially when one of the cam locks , top one I believe, on a seagoing container's doors is not located in its pocket correctly and the container holding a valuable racing car is destined for a long sea journey. But that is another sad, sad story...
Roger Lund

BTW it makes me wonder just how badly Nick Mason's 312T was damaged when the boat sank. A full Maranello restoration sorted it, ISTR

#506 David Birchall

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 21:46


Not to sidetrack this thread too much but I thought this might be of interest to TNFers:

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The plane crashed very close to the edge of the Pacific ocean in early 1945. I took these photos about twenty years ago. Since then the wankers with spray cans have been there and it is covered in grafitti apparently. But, the two engine crankcases were in surprising good condition when I inspected the site in the early nineties. I showed these photos to a friend and he went slightly white, "My father was on that plane!" he gasped--he had never seen photos before. Story here:
http://www.pacificwr.../pby/11007.html

#507 Doug Nye

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 23:05

Ryanair package flight?

DCN

#508 David Birchall

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 00:09

The twelve passengers was a give away?  ;)

#509 Odseybod

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:42

The twelve passengers was a give away? ;)


Having to pay £1 to use the Elsan was a bit steep.

#510 kayemod

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:03

Having to pay £1 to use the Elsan was a bit steep.


Yes, and they made enough from the excess baggage charges to almost pay for a replacement plane. There was probably also a charge to use the emergency exit & slide.


#511 Ian G

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 22:20

They should be releasing a daily update on whats happening as there is a lot of interest around the World,my Niece is a Journo and she can't find any new Info. past the "water in crate" story.I know they have probaly sold the story to National Geo. or something similar but a few titbits wouldn't hurt.

http://www.thisissta...tail/story.html

Edited by Ian G, 16 January 2013 - 22:22.


#512 Mal9444

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:52

BBC News this morning: no crock of gold at the end of the rainbow. Not in the crate, nor anywhere. The buried Spitfires appears to have been a myth, although the lead archaeologist is quoted as saying that he stills believes there are Spitfires buried in Burma, they've just been looking in the wrong place. Puts me in mind of those stories about hidden warehouses in the 'States crammed full of crates of WWII Jeeps, just waiting to be found.

A pity. A find of 124 Spitfires, crated-up and just needing to be bolted together and started up would have been rather lovely.

Oh well. Back to checking my lottery ticket, then...

#513 Glengavel

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:41

BBC News this morning: no crock of gold at the end of the rainbow. Not in the crate, nor anywhere. The buried Spitfires appears to have been a myth, although the lead archaeologist is quoted as saying that he stills believes there are Spitfires buried in Burma, they've just been looking in the wrong place. Puts me in mind of those stories about hidden warehouses in the 'States crammed full of crates of WWII Jeeps, just waiting to be found.

A pity. A find of 124 Spitfires, crated-up and just needing to be bolted together and started up would have been rather lovely.

Oh well. Back to checking my lottery ticket, then...


The UK has its own treasures salted away:

Strategic Reserve

#514 Doug Nye

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:29

The UK has its own treasures salted away:

Strategic Reserve


Strategic reserve? This infers long-term forward thinking. No British Government in decades can be accused of that. Nor can the civil service. Or at least - that's the way it looks... :cool:

DCN

#515 f1steveuk

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 16:57

I recall while researching a TV programme on moth balled goods, that there were quite a few sheds around Church Crookham still filled with Donkey blankets, saw them myself, made me wonder what else had be put aside, just in case!!

#516 RS2000

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 17:12

I recall while researching a TV programme on moth balled goods, that there were quite a few sheds around Church Crookham still filled with Donkey blankets, saw them myself, made me wonder what else had be put aside, just in case!!


The mark of a good "Stores" (sorry, Logistics...) Sergeant is how much extra kit he has sqirrelled away for his unit over time. One of the last major NATO "outloading" exercises in BAOR revealed that the carefully scaled vehicle and trailer allocations for going "on the road" left most units with a pile of extra kit as big as the scaled kit they had just loaded...

#517 RS2000

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 17:16

Strategic reserve? This infers long-term forward thinking. No British Government in decades can be accused of that. Nor can the civil service. Or at least - that's the way it looks... :cool:
DCN


That's because they were away to "Burlington", later known as "Turnstile", next door to all those steam engines (and don't forget the captured UFOs) in Box Tunnel.

Edited by RS2000, 18 January 2013 - 17:16.


#518 Ian G

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 22:49

Not sure how it will all end in Burma but from what i can find out on the Net. & Media the Planes did exist,the crates were either buried or dumped at sea so hopefully they are just looking in the wrong place.The only thing i'm not comfortable with is the fact that burying the crates would have been a big exercise and surely talked about after the War by those involved,the fact that no family members(AFAIK) have come forward to confirm what happened is also a concern.

#519 dolomite

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 23:39

Not looking good.....

BBC News - Archaeologists believe no Spitfires buried in Burma

Spitfire search descends into farce


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#520 IrishMariner

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:36

Aviation blog 'Hushkit' has posted an interview with car designer Peter Stevens (McLaren F1 and others). In the interview, Mr Stevens describes a personal theory he has for why the Spitfire looked 'sensuous' and the Hurricane (which I personally prefer) was less so.

Interview is available here: 'Hushkit' interview with Peter Stevens

Relevant section of text here:

"The Hurricane is a fabulous aircraft but I suspect that the draughtsmen who would have drawn the full-size lines of the ‘plane would have been local to Hatfield and would most probably have had amongst their drawing kit ‘railway curves’. These are very large radius curves used during the laying out of railway tracks. If you then connect these very big radius lines, often almost straight lines, with regular corner radii you get a Hurricane. The Spitfire, on the other hand was drawn up in Southampton where the draughtsmen would have come from the boat building industry, and they would have amongst their drawing kit ‘ships curves’, these are transitional curves that slowly tighten or flatten over their lengths. Hence the more sensuous lines of the Spitfire."




#521 Nick Savage

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:00

I am a bit sceptical about this, apart from being a good story.

The tiny team of designers/draughtsman assembled at Canbury Park Rd, Kingston, to complete the prototype, according to Francis Mason's expert book about the Hurricane. The design was a continuation of the multi-tube space-frame approach used by Hawkers on their excellent series of Hart, Fury and Audax, some of the most beautiful bi-planes ever to fly. Not for Sydney Camm the excessive complication of the Supermarine semi-monocoque approach - he wanted his fighter to be easy to fly and easy to repair when battle-damaged. His designers used a philosophy of incremental progress. The shape of the Hurricane flowed naturally from that and, I think, little to do with railway curves and certai nly nowhere near Hatfield.

I have never been over-awed by the adulation for the Spitfire. For my money, the Hurricane looks wonderfully purposeful and punchy, a proper gents aerial fighting machine.
Nick


interview with Peter Stevens[/url]

Relevant section of text here:

"The Hurricane is a fabulous aircraft but I suspect that the draughtsmen who would have drawn the full-size lines of the ‘plane would have been local to Hatfield and would most probably have had amongst their drawing kit ‘railway curves’. These are very large radius curves used during the laying out of railway tracks. If you then connect these very big radius lines, often almost straight lines, with regular corner radii you get a Hurricane. The Spitfire, on the other hand was drawn up in Southampton where the draughtsmen would have come from the boat building industry, and they would have amongst their drawing kit ‘ships curves’, these are transitional curves that slowly tighten or flatten over their lengths. Hence the more sensuous lines of the Spitfire."
[/quote]


#522 Allan Lupton

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:22

Actually Nick, it doesn't even make a good story!
a) what's Hatfield (i.e. de Havilland) got to do with the Hawker Hurricane?
b) why would a drawing office near Hatfield have "railway curves"?
c) as you say, the Hurricane was a continuation of the line of Hawker's aeroplanes
d) as, to a considerable extent, was the Spitfire of Supermanine's

The Greeks had a word for it. . .

Βολλοχ

#523 Odseybod

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:04

Actually Nick, it doesn't even make a good story!
a) what's Hatfield (i.e. de Havilland) got to do with the Hawker Hurricane?
b) why would a drawing office near Hatfield have "railway curves"?
c) as you say, the Hurricane was a continuation of the line of Hawker's aeroplanes
d) as, to a considerable extent, was the Spitfire of Supermanine's

The Greeks had a word for it. . .

Βολλοχ


And no doubt the Mosquito used some of Sir Nigel Gresley's boiler templates he accidentally left at Salisbury Hall when he vacated the premises ....

#524 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:49

Since graduating I have always used a set of french curves. What sort of plane could I have designed?

#525 La Sarthe

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 18:03

A Brigitte Bardot special? :lol:

#526 Allan Lupton

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 19:12

Since graduating I have always used a set of french curves. What sort of plane could I have designed?

Probably one like this Breguet Br.761/763/765 Deux Ponts
Posted Image


#527 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 19:58

Almost all of the work on the Spitfire wing was done by the Canadian Beverley Shenstone, who was possibly the most skilled aerodynamicist working in Britain in the 1930s. He had previously worked at Junkers with the great Alexander Lippisch and was a personal friend of Willy Messerschmitt. So to ascribe the design to a bunch of "draughtsmen who had come from the boatbuilding industry" is - to put it mildly - laughable - not to mention insulting to both Shenstone and Mitchell - and suggests to me that Mr Stevens is talking through his hat.

http://www.amazon.co...l/dp/184884896X

#528 Charles E Taylor

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 21:10

Since graduating I have always used a set of french curves. What sort of plane could I have designed?


If you had some flair and worked diligently, you might end up with something like LE RÊVE BLEU

http://www.bugatti100p.com/



Beautiful






Charlie

#529 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:41

It's a shame then that I spent a lot of my career designing Sewage Treatment Plants!

#530 wolseley680

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:56

The Spitfire and the Hurricane were instrumental in denying the Luftwaffe the air superiority that was needed for an invasion and are both very important aircraft however with the same powerplant the Spitfire was faster and could fly higher, both rather critical for air combat. In terms of construction the Hurricane was "old school" with an airframe and fabric/metal covering whilst the Spitfire was of stressed skin metal construction (except control surfaces on some models) which was harder to make or repair - and the wide track undercarriage of the Hurricane was superior to that of the Spitfire so both aircraft had their advantages but the Hurricane didn't have the development left in it that the Spitfire did. The Hurricane had a shorter service life and was built in fewer numbers than the Spitfire and whilst some may prefer the Hurricane, I don't think there is any doubt about which was the better aircraft

#531 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 23:11

The Hurricane had a shorter service life and was built in fewer numbers than the Spitfire and whilst some may prefer the Hurricane, I don't think there is any doubt about which was the better aircraft


Hmmmm - while understanding what you mean this begs the question, "in what respect?". Many who would know in period regarded the Hurricane as the better gun platform, the more robust, the more capable of surviving battle damage, at lower altitudes it could out-turn both the Bf109 and the Spitfire, and in later years it became an effective and dependable ground attack aircraft if not approaching the record in this respect of its successor, the Typhoon. The Hurricane does tend now to be over-praised in reaction to the glamourisation of the Spitfire having prevailed, some consider, at the Hurricane's expense. Both are distinctive and significant. The Spitfire had greater potential, and simply outlived its 'sister'.

DCN


#532 kayemod

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 23:20

...the more capable of surviving battle damage.


Yes, and also having slightly more 'old fashioned' construction, Hurricanes were far easier than Spitfires to repair in the field, a very important consideration in wartime.

#533 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 00:05

A number of years ago, I had the opportunity to talk to two ex. WW 2 Fighter pilots, who both managed to get through the war unscathed. Both of them preferred to fly the Hurricane as it was not such a" sensitive" plane to fly. One used the analogy of a pedigree race horse for the Spitfire. They both said that the hotshot Aces preferred the Spitfire.

Edited by Robin Fairservice, 10 February 2013 - 00:06.


#534 kayemod

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:23

I can remember one of the older guys at Arch Motors some time in the late 60s making a Hurricane/Spitfire comparison with regard to spaceframes and aluminium monocoques, repairability versus ultimate performance potential.

#535 Allan Lupton

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:54

I can remember one of the older guys at Arch Motors some time in the late 60s making a Hurricane/Spitfire comparison with regard to spaceframes and aluminium monocoques, repairability versus ultimate performance potential.

It should be remembered that Hurricane repairablilty in the field depended on the availability of spare components for the space-frame: see somewhere back up this thread where the bolted fittings and square-section ends of the tubes are described.

#536 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 12:16

Hunt for WWII Spitfires in Burma called off The sponsor of a British-led team hunting for dozens of rare World War II Spitfires said to have been buried in Burma has abandoned the search, saying stories of the stashed planes are merely "legend".

Ho-hum ... :well:

#537 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 13:20

Oh, and there's also this ... Israeli AF Spitfires and the Burma Saga By Peter Dancey which even seems to have a tenuous motor racing connection: [url="http://"%20<a%20href="http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=958&view=findpost&p=4113626""%20target="_blank">http://forums.autosp...how...p=4113626"</a>"]Mrs AC Lace, Brian Carbury and some Beaufighters..[/url]

Edited by Vitesse2, 16 February 2013 - 13:21.


#538 Cargo

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 15:22

Yes, spotted the news about the search being called off in today's papers. :| So the whole project has crashed and burned, as many of the sceptics (on here) predicted it would. For myself, I am very disappointed, and not a little annoyed. I was excited by this project when I first read about it last year, and though initially doubtful, became convinced that the Spits were there, and that they would be found. It was interesting to speculate as to see what condition they would have be in after 50 years in a tropical jungle. But that ain't going to happen now. Bummer.... :mad: :down:

Only thing to look forward to now is the TV documentary of the search, which can only feature anger/recriminations and finger pointing among the team of searchers. There will be nothing else to report on.

I believe the project leader is now planning to dig for more buried Spit's at a new site in Birmingham. I think he might have trouble getting sponsorship this time though .. :rolleyes:

#539 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:45

There is a two seater in here... http://rnzaf.proboar...d...595&page=79

Edited by Patrick Fletcher, 13 April 2013 - 10:46.


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#540 kayemod

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 22:21

It took me a day to get round to it, but I've just watched a rather disappointing Channel 4 programme Guy Martin's Spitfire. Martin is a quite engaging character, truck mechanic and part-time motorbike racer, I think he got a second in one of this year's IoM TT races, but this just seemed like an opportunity to insert a 'personality' into a not very remarkable TV show. The idea was to 'restore' a wrecked Spitfire that had crashed onto a beach near Calais early in WW2 so that it could take to the skies once again, but after it had been dug out of a French beach where it had been buried for seventy something years, it's hardly surprising that the team didn't find so much as one nut & bolt that was re-usable, the remains were total scrap. What a highly skilled team at Duxford did was build a replica Mk 1 Spitfire, probably using one or two genuine parts, though we weren't told which ones, if any at all. Martin didn't seem to do much more than tighten a few nuts and machine some small parts. I'm no expert, and I spotted many factual errors in the story, at the end it felt like rather a wasted opportunity, did anyone who knows more than I do about these things see it, and if so, what was the verdict?



#541 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 07:29

Yes, pretty underwhelming and certainly not the best thing I've seen Guy Martin do. I usually find him quite engaging, but this was just a bit ... meh. Didn't really keep my attention and the last half hour really dragged. I might try rewatching it on 4oD - but probably not. I'd rather have seen more of the engineering and less of the inevitable 'Rosie the Riveter' stuff.



#542 elansprint72

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 07:38

Rob, I think that you have hit the rivet on the head! I read about this project on a couple of sites when it was completed back in February/March; there was no mention of a film crew or "celeb truck mechanic" being involved and on the photos showing the first engine runs and maiden flight no sign of them, or any other PR fluff.

Of course half the programme bleated on about "returning this aircraft to the sky"  or"the last time this aircraft left Duxford" etc. What they should have said was "the last time this aircraft registration left Duxford". Cue the continuation/replica/fake/evocation/facsimile and (urgh) "tool-room copy" discussion. I think it should be issued with a separate identity (if that has not already happened).

 

That must have been one brave pilot who, seemingly, got in, started the motor for the first time, got airborne, packed the wheels away and proceeded to loop it and have a dogfight with a (very suspect-looking) Me109 and then pronounced it ready for certification! I don't think it quite works like that.

 

That's entertainment...  :rolleyes:


Edited by elansprint72, 14 October 2014 - 07:39.


#543 kayemod

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 08:10

 

Of course half the programme bleated on about "returning this aircraft to the sky"  or"the last time this aircraft left Duxford" etc. What they should have said was "the last time this aircraft registration left Duxford". Cue the continuation/replica/fake/evocation/facsimile and (urgh) "tool-room copy" discussion. I think it should be issued with a separate identity (if that has not already happened).

 

 

It's just like old racing cars, all you seem to need for authentification is a chassis plate, but in the Spitfire's case they didn't even have that.



#544 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:31

Pete, I think you may have fallen asleep at some point :lol: (Not that I'd blame you!) The 'dogfight' scene was actually with one of the two-seat trainer Spits, which Guy was (briefly and somewhat surprisingly) allowed to take the controls of in flight.

 

Interesting to see what a mess a single Browning .303 can make of a Bimmer though.



#545 elansprint72

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:37

Pete, I think you may have fallen asleep at some point :lol: (Not that I'd blame you!) The 'dogfight' scene was actually with one of the two-seat trainer Spits, which Guy was (briefly and somewhat surprisingly) allowed to take the controls of in flight.

 

Interesting to see what a mess a single Browning .303 can make of a Bimmer though.

I sit corrected; possibly I turned over to see the latest from the strictly ice-dancing diving competition celebrities on Cornation Farm or Emmerdale Street or the Y factor... any of which would have been more interesting/factual... etc.   ;)



#546 Stephen W

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:48

Not knowing that much about the internal construction etc of a Spitfire I found the building of this replica fascinating. I did find some of the interviews repetitious but the real failing of the programme was that it was way too long for the content. Also why did we have to have the same guff spouting out after each set of adverts? I recorded the programme as I mistakenly thought I might want to watch it again, it have now been deleted.

 

Guy Martin is a 'character' and as such what little he did in this construction job was irrelevant. To my mind he was wasted on the programme and it would have been far better with a seasoned presenter who didn't roll up his sleeves but was capable of doing interviews with the people rather than have them answering questions we didn't hear.



#547 kayemod

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:51

 

 

Interesting to see what a mess a single Browning .303 can make of a Bimmer though.

 

I think that was one of the programme's major cock-ups, Mk 1 Spits, even the later ones all had 8 x .303" Browning machine guns, later versions had 2 x 20mm Hispano cannon added, losing 4 machine guns at the same time. It was several years later that 0.5" machine guns first appeared on the Mk IX and XIV variants. They told us that the machine gun that made a mess of the BMW was a 0.5" Browning, but given the factual accuracy of the rest of the programme, who knows? I can't see standard 0.303" rifle bullets causing that much damage, even on exiting the car, having made the expected small neat hole on entry.



#548 Peter Morley

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 10:25

I thought it was an interesting programme but was surprised to see that the only connection to the original plane seems to be that it was in the same hanger - presumably they will provide a list of the original components to suitably qualified potential purchasers.

Was surprised they said the owners were 'secret' when the credits said the programme was in memory of Simon Marsh.

 

It's interesting to compare it with historic racing cars, those who believe in provenance/paperwork would presumably be happy that it is the original Spitfire.

Of course if it was 'restored' like current historic race cars it would be 100mph faster than original and pull a few more G!

 

What I can't believe is how the restoration costs have shot up (which they only touched on with the propeller)  - engine rebuild apparently £120,000 these days "because it's harder to find people with the right skills and to get parts made", like pistons which have got easier for cars.



#549 Glengavel

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 11:43

Pete, I think you may have fallen asleep at some point :lol: (Not that I'd blame you!) The 'dogfight' scene was actually with one of the two-seat trainer Spits, which Guy was (briefly and somewhat surprisingly) allowed to take the controls of in flight.

 

Interesting to see what a mess a single Browning .303 can make of a Bimmer though.

 

And yet I've often read that the 8 x .303 guns on a Spitfire or Hurricane were always considered as barely adequate, you had to get in close and fire a long burst to do any damage.



#550 wolseley680

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 12:12

In the 30s when the Spitfire & Hurricane were designed, the increase in speed created concern as to how long a pilot could keep an enemy fighter in his sights and the rate of fire of a .303 Browning was markedly higher than the Hispano 20mm at that time. So the cone of fire of eight Brownings gave your average pilot more chances of hitting the target than with the slower firing cannon.