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Supermarine Spitfire


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#551 Stephen W

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 14:00

.303 rounds will punch holes in boilerplate and should make a mess of an engine. Plus every so often there were tracer rounds so if you hit a fuel tank with a prolonged burst it could be devastating.



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#552 werks prototype

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 17:55

I think that was one of the programme's major cock-ups, Mk 1 Spits, even the later ones all had 8 x .303" Browning machine guns, later versions had 2 x 20mm Hispano cannon added, losing 4 machine guns at the same time. It was several years later that 0.5" machine guns first appeared on the Mk IX and XIV variants. They told us that the machine gun that made a mess of the BMW was a 0.5" Browning, but given the factual accuracy of the rest of the programme, who knows? I can't see standard 0.303" rifle bullets causing that much damage, even on exiting the car, having made the expected small neat hole on entry.

 

Wasn't this mechanism originally a Colt 0.30in, re-chambered (By Browning) for use with the British 0.303 rimmed cartridge?



#553 kayemod

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 18:57

Wasn't this mechanism originally a Colt 0.30in, re-chambered (By Browning) for use with the British 0.303 rimmed cartridge?

 

I think that Colt was the original manufacturer, and John Browning the inventor responsible for the design, my dad always used to refer to them as Colt-Browning machine guns. There were a number of different makers due to WW2 demand, and most people seem to refer to them just by the designer's name, "General Motors Browning" or in the UK "BSA Browning" wouldn't have quite the same ring to it.



#554 werks prototype

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 19:28

A nice bit of custom engineering.

 

I remember reading, with the Vickers 0.303in not really being up to the job, they also tried out the Colt 0.5in, but it just had too low a rate of fire, and a short barrel life.



#555 JtP2

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 01:15

too much is made of the Spitfire/ Hurricane armament in TV programs. Like "it only had 15secs ammunition unlike the 109 with 55 secs". So its 15secs with 8 guns or 55 secs with 2, which do you think is better? Prototype 20mm cannon Spitfires were being supplied to sqds on a specific basis in 39, but did not reach general service till 41. The only fully equipped sqd was still having gun jamming problems during the BoB.

Armament for each wing is as follows A= 8 brownings, B = 2x 20mm and 4 Brownings or 4x 20mm, C = universal to take either gun arrangement, but normally the B armament with 2x20mm and 4 x303. The E wing allowed for the replacement of the 2x303 in each wing with a 0.5" Browning, the 20mm was moved to the outboard bay and the .5 fitted in the inner bay.

No armament mention ever seems to be made of a D wing, so I suspect that it was fuel tank wing for PR Spitfires or it was possibly the proposed 6x20mm armament wing



#556 Glengavel

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 05:48

too much is made of the Spitfire/ Hurricane armament in TV programs. Like "it only had 15secs ammunition unlike the 109 with 55 secs". So its 15secs with 8 guns or 55 secs with 2, which do you think is better? Prototype 20mm cannon Spitfires were being supplied to sqds on a specific basis in 39, but did not reach general service till 41. The only fully equipped sqd was still having gun jamming problems during the BoB.

Armament for each wing is as follows A= 8 brownings, B = 2x 20mm and 4 Brownings or 4x 20mm, C = universal to take either gun arrangement, but normally the B armament with 2x20mm and 4 x303. The E wing allowed for the replacement of the 2x303 in each wing with a 0.5" Browning, the 20mm was moved to the outboard bay and the .5 fitted in the inner bay.

No armament mention ever seems to be made of a D wing, so I suspect that it was fuel tank wing for PR Spitfires or it was possibly the proposed 6x20mm armament wing

 

The Bf109 had either 4 guns, of slightly larger calibre than the .303, or 2 guns and 2 20mm cannon.



#557 GreenMachine

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 06:49

The Bf109 had either 4 guns, of slightly larger calibre than the .303, or 2 guns and 2 20mm cannon.


Depends.

Some later model 109s ('F'?) had a 20mm or 30mm firing through the propeller. Then there were the ones with extra 2x30mm in underwing mounts for anti-bomber work, as well as the internally mounted guns.

#558 werks prototype

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 08:51

too much is made of the Spitfire/ Hurricane armament in TV programs. Like "it only had 15secs ammunition unlike the 109 with 55 secs". So its 15secs with 8 guns or 55 secs with 2, which do you think is better? Prototype 20mm cannon Spitfires were being supplied to sqds on a specific basis in 39, but did not reach general service till 41. The only fully equipped sqd was still having gun jamming problems during the BoB.

Armament for each wing is as follows A= 8 brownings, B = 2x 20mm and 4 Brownings or 4x 20mm, C = universal to take either gun arrangement, but normally the B armament with 2x20mm and 4 x303. The E wing allowed for the replacement of the 2x303 in each wing with a 0.5" Browning, the 20mm was moved to the outboard bay and the .5 fitted in the inner bay.

No armament mention ever seems to be made of a D wing, so I suspect that it was fuel tank wing for PR Spitfires or it was possibly the proposed 6x20mm armament wing

 

I think there was a wing type designated, or referred to as, 'New Wing' too? Came in right at the end of the war, carrying four of the lighter, Hispano Mk. V's.



#559 JtP2

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 10:18

New Wing too , laminar flow wing for 21/22/24?



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#560 werks prototype

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 11:00

New Wing too , laminar flow wing for 21/22/24?

 

 http://spitfiresite....ng-types.html/3

 
The revised wing

Beginning with the Mk. 21, the Spitfire had a new, restructured wing design. The design work on the new wing started as early as 1942, but it found its way into production only by the very end of the war.

New, larger area ailerons were deemed necessary to increase the agility of the aircraft in the rolling plane. To accommodate them, the wing planform was enlarged with wider chord towards the wingtips, and its internal structure revised to strengthen the wing in torsion and thus increase the useful diving speed and raise the speed limit for aileron reversal. The wingtips were gently squared-off making for a noticeable a departure form the perfect elliptical outline of the original Spitfire wing.

The new wing was armed with four 20 mm Hispano Mk II or V cannon. No other armament configurations were incorporated as the RAF standardised on all-cannon armament for its post-war fighters.

The Hispano Mk. V was lighter, had a higher rate of fire and a shorter barrel, leading to the protruding gun fairings being shortened even more. Also, the cannon and their belt were staggered, and consequently, the inner and outer blisters for feed motors were of different shape.

Other changes included widening the undercarriage by 7.25″ (19.6 cm), with its wells placed correspondingly further away from the centerline. In order to enable larger propellers to be fitted while providing adequate ground clearance, the undercarriage legs were also longer by 4.5″ (11.4 cm). The undercarriage could be also fully enclosed in flight due to the new outer undercarriage covers.

No official designation was ever given to this wing type. It was most often referred to in official letters as the “new wing”.

spitfire-21-wing_small.jpg

The new wing introduced on the Spitfire Mk. 21 was only superficially similar to the preceding wing types.
Internally, all aspects of its construction have been revised.
Click to enlarge image
[Crown Copyright]

 

 

 

I always associate the supermarine laminar flow wing with the development of the Spiteful.

 

I think 'New Wing' with an arrangement of four Hispano Mk. V's, was in use proper, only with the late production Mk. 24?



#561 JtP2

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 18:02

Spitfire 21 = laminar flow wing (244sq ft) and conventional canopy. Spitfire 22 = 21 with bubble canopy, Spitfire 24 = 22 with increased internal tankage.

 

Spiteful = laminar flow wing, tapered planform  (210sq ft) with undercarriage in wing retracting inwards.