Jump to content


Photo

Supermarine Spitfire


  • Please log in to reply
572 replies to this topic

#551 Stephen W

Stephen W
  • Member

  • 12,140 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 14 October 2014 - 14:00

.303 rounds will punch holes in boilerplate and should make a mess of an engine. Plus every so often there were tracer rounds so if you hit a fuel tank with a prolonged burst it could be devastating.



Advertisement

#552 werks prototype

werks prototype
  • Member

  • 5,802 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 14 October 2014 - 17:55

I think that was one of the programme's major cock-ups, Mk 1 Spits, even the later ones all had 8 x .303" Browning machine guns, later versions had 2 x 20mm Hispano cannon added, losing 4 machine guns at the same time. It was several years later that 0.5" machine guns first appeared on the Mk IX and XIV variants. They told us that the machine gun that made a mess of the BMW was a 0.5" Browning, but given the factual accuracy of the rest of the programme, who knows? I can't see standard 0.303" rifle bullets causing that much damage, even on exiting the car, having made the expected small neat hole on entry.

 

Wasn't this mechanism originally a Colt 0.30in, re-chambered (By Browning) for use with the British 0.303 rimmed cartridge?



#553 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 7,597 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 14 October 2014 - 18:57

Wasn't this mechanism originally a Colt 0.30in, re-chambered (By Browning) for use with the British 0.303 rimmed cartridge?

 

I think that Colt was the original manufacturer, and John Browning the inventor responsible for the design, my dad always used to refer to them as Colt-Browning machine guns. There were a number of different makers due to WW2 demand, and most people seem to refer to them just by the designer's name, "General Motors Browning" or in the UK "BSA Browning" wouldn't have quite the same ring to it.



#554 werks prototype

werks prototype
  • Member

  • 5,802 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 14 October 2014 - 19:28

A nice bit of custom engineering.

 

I remember reading, with the Vickers 0.303in not really being up to the job, they also tried out the Colt 0.5in, but it just had too low a rate of fire, and a short barrel life.



#555 JtP2

JtP2
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 15 October 2014 - 01:15

too much is made of the Spitfire/ Hurricane armament in TV programs. Like "it only had 15secs ammunition unlike the 109 with 55 secs". So its 15secs with 8 guns or 55 secs with 2, which do you think is better? Prototype 20mm cannon Spitfires were being supplied to sqds on a specific basis in 39, but did not reach general service till 41. The only fully equipped sqd was still having gun jamming problems during the BoB.

Armament for each wing is as follows A= 8 brownings, B = 2x 20mm and 4 Brownings or 4x 20mm, C = universal to take either gun arrangement, but normally the B armament with 2x20mm and 4 x303. The E wing allowed for the replacement of the 2x303 in each wing with a 0.5" Browning, the 20mm was moved to the outboard bay and the .5 fitted in the inner bay.

No armament mention ever seems to be made of a D wing, so I suspect that it was fuel tank wing for PR Spitfires or it was possibly the proposed 6x20mm armament wing



#556 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 604 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 15 October 2014 - 05:48

too much is made of the Spitfire/ Hurricane armament in TV programs. Like "it only had 15secs ammunition unlike the 109 with 55 secs". So its 15secs with 8 guns or 55 secs with 2, which do you think is better? Prototype 20mm cannon Spitfires were being supplied to sqds on a specific basis in 39, but did not reach general service till 41. The only fully equipped sqd was still having gun jamming problems during the BoB.

Armament for each wing is as follows A= 8 brownings, B = 2x 20mm and 4 Brownings or 4x 20mm, C = universal to take either gun arrangement, but normally the B armament with 2x20mm and 4 x303. The E wing allowed for the replacement of the 2x303 in each wing with a 0.5" Browning, the 20mm was moved to the outboard bay and the .5 fitted in the inner bay.

No armament mention ever seems to be made of a D wing, so I suspect that it was fuel tank wing for PR Spitfires or it was possibly the proposed 6x20mm armament wing

 

The Bf109 had either 4 guns, of slightly larger calibre than the .303, or 2 guns and 2 20mm cannon.



#557 GreenMachine

GreenMachine
  • Member

  • 888 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 15 October 2014 - 06:49

The Bf109 had either 4 guns, of slightly larger calibre than the .303, or 2 guns and 2 20mm cannon.


Depends.

Some later model 109s ('F'?) had a 20mm or 30mm firing through the propeller. Then there were the ones with extra 2x30mm in underwing mounts for anti-bomber work, as well as the internally mounted guns.

#558 werks prototype

werks prototype
  • Member

  • 5,802 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 15 October 2014 - 08:51

too much is made of the Spitfire/ Hurricane armament in TV programs. Like "it only had 15secs ammunition unlike the 109 with 55 secs". So its 15secs with 8 guns or 55 secs with 2, which do you think is better? Prototype 20mm cannon Spitfires were being supplied to sqds on a specific basis in 39, but did not reach general service till 41. The only fully equipped sqd was still having gun jamming problems during the BoB.

Armament for each wing is as follows A= 8 brownings, B = 2x 20mm and 4 Brownings or 4x 20mm, C = universal to take either gun arrangement, but normally the B armament with 2x20mm and 4 x303. The E wing allowed for the replacement of the 2x303 in each wing with a 0.5" Browning, the 20mm was moved to the outboard bay and the .5 fitted in the inner bay.

No armament mention ever seems to be made of a D wing, so I suspect that it was fuel tank wing for PR Spitfires or it was possibly the proposed 6x20mm armament wing

 

I think there was a wing type designated, or referred to as, 'New Wing' too? Came in right at the end of the war, carrying four of the lighter, Hispano Mk. V's.



#559 JtP2

JtP2
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 15 October 2014 - 10:18

New Wing too , laminar flow wing for 21/22/24?



Advertisement

#560 werks prototype

werks prototype
  • Member

  • 5,802 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 15 October 2014 - 11:00

New Wing too , laminar flow wing for 21/22/24?

 

 http://spitfiresite....ng-types.html/3

 
The revised wing

Beginning with the Mk. 21, the Spitfire had a new, restructured wing design. The design work on the new wing started as early as 1942, but it found its way into production only by the very end of the war.

New, larger area ailerons were deemed necessary to increase the agility of the aircraft in the rolling plane. To accommodate them, the wing planform was enlarged with wider chord towards the wingtips, and its internal structure revised to strengthen the wing in torsion and thus increase the useful diving speed and raise the speed limit for aileron reversal. The wingtips were gently squared-off making for a noticeable a departure form the perfect elliptical outline of the original Spitfire wing.

The new wing was armed with four 20 mm Hispano Mk II or V cannon. No other armament configurations were incorporated as the RAF standardised on all-cannon armament for its post-war fighters.

The Hispano Mk. V was lighter, had a higher rate of fire and a shorter barrel, leading to the protruding gun fairings being shortened even more. Also, the cannon and their belt were staggered, and consequently, the inner and outer blisters for feed motors were of different shape.

Other changes included widening the undercarriage by 7.25″ (19.6 cm), with its wells placed correspondingly further away from the centerline. In order to enable larger propellers to be fitted while providing adequate ground clearance, the undercarriage legs were also longer by 4.5″ (11.4 cm). The undercarriage could be also fully enclosed in flight due to the new outer undercarriage covers.

No official designation was ever given to this wing type. It was most often referred to in official letters as the “new wing”.

spitfire-21-wing_small.jpg

The new wing introduced on the Spitfire Mk. 21 was only superficially similar to the preceding wing types.
Internally, all aspects of its construction have been revised.
Click to enlarge image
[Crown Copyright]

 

 

 

I always associate the supermarine laminar flow wing with the development of the Spiteful.

 

I think 'New Wing' with an arrangement of four Hispano Mk. V's, was in use proper, only with the late production Mk. 24?



#561 JtP2

JtP2
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 15 October 2014 - 18:02

Spitfire 21 = laminar flow wing (244sq ft) and conventional canopy. Spitfire 22 = 21 with bubble canopy, Spitfire 24 = 22 with increased internal tankage.

 

Spiteful = laminar flow wing, tapered planform  (210sq ft) with undercarriage in wing retracting inwards.



#562 elansprint72

elansprint72
  • Member

  • 3,459 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 03 May 2015 - 22:09

16739452903_2af870be85_h.jpg

 

 

:wave:

 

Someone once said that a picture is worth a thousand words... or something about a face that sank a thousand ships... I forget which; perhaps I should have paid more attention in my History lectures?  ;)


Edited by elansprint72, 03 May 2015 - 22:15.


#563 JtP2

JtP2
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 04 May 2015 - 00:07

twas said about Helen of Troy whose face launched a thousand ships, or in a scuba diving photo from the end of a Skye expedition "Susan P, the face that sank a Humber attaque"

 

Looks like a MkV or less likely a MkII and unlikely to have carried Invasion markings historically.



#564 DogEarred

DogEarred
  • Member

  • 488 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 04 May 2015 - 06:20

Despite bad weather, a Spitfire & a Eurofighter Typhoon made low passes over the Williams factory at Grove yesterday, for the benefit of Sir Frank. (There was the Abingdon Airshow nearby)

 

He encourages & enjoys such things. Quite often military helicopters manoeuvre over the site & occasionally land for lunch.

 

Neat.



#565 retriever

retriever
  • Member

  • 412 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 22 May 2015 - 20:37

Great picture on the front page the Telegraph today - pity that the Hurricane depicted was captioned as a Spitfire!

 

Later editions (we get the early edition here in the west country) have had the captioning corrected.



#566 rasimmo

rasimmo
  • Member

  • 120 posts
  • Joined: November 13

Posted 25 May 2015 - 09:48

The roundels should be blue and white not black and white. The lack of the red centre is correct for the Pacific Theatre where it was removed to avoid confusion with the Japanese red disc. But was the "night fighter" camouflage used there? the shark mouth just looks wrong.

But I'd sooner see a Spitfire in strange colours than not see one at all.

The roundels  are blue and white, maybe the shadow makes them look darker.



#567 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 3,183 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 25 May 2015 - 10:24

twas said about Helen of Troy whose face launched a thousand ships

Yes, and the derived scientific unit of female beauty is the milliHelen. i.e. enough beauty to launch one ship

:yawnface:



#568 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 7,597 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 12 July 2015 - 17:32

I almost hate myself for enjoying this, but let's all enjoy some politically incorrect amusement from this clever bit of advertising.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

 

Inevitably, there were some complaints, but as far as I know, none of these came from Germans, who I've always found to have a sense of humour very like ours.

 

Wouldn't be too surprised if this has featured on TNF before, but a quick search couldn't find it, so apologies if you've all seen it before.


Edited by kayemod, 12 July 2015 - 17:50.


#569 David Birchall

David Birchall
  • Member

  • 3,048 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 12 July 2015 - 17:58

Bloody luverly! :)

#570 Rob29

Rob29
  • Member

  • 3,211 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 13 July 2015 - 06:39

Bloody luverly! :)

Seconded :drunk: How have I missed seeing these clips before-love the Vulcan-remember first seeing one on TV live from the Farnborough air show c1953.



#571 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 25,980 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 19 July 2015 - 12:15

They say that any landing you can walk away from is a good one, but this is a seriously good wheels-up pancake, coming in at virtually stalling speed.

 

http://www.telegraph...out-wheels.html



#572 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 3,183 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 19 July 2015 - 13:24

Not a real Spitfire, of course, so of less importance as the cause will not affect genuine Spitfires still flying.



#573 GreenMachine

GreenMachine
  • Member

  • 888 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 19 July 2015 - 13:33

They say that any landing you can walk away from is a good one, but this is a seriously good wheels-up pancake, coming in at virtually stalling speed.

http://www.telegraph...out-wheels.html


Agreed.

However that is a "Spitfire", not a Spitfire, and an 80% sized one at that. Belly landing the real thing would be a lot more dramatic than that. (Ooops! Allan beat me to it!)

And while I am here, this:

.303 rounds will punch holes in boilerplate and should make a mess of an engine. Plus every so often there were tracer rounds so if you hit a fuel tank with a prolonged burst it could be devastating.

is quite misleading.

The .303 was discarded because of its lack of hitting power, being defeated by self-sealing fuel tanks and armour plate.

Edited by GreenMachine, 19 July 2015 - 13:34.