43 replies to this topic

[GeorgeTheCar]

I am the chair of the Archvies committe of the Canadian Motorsport Hall of Fame.


I am currently reading Forza Amon in the section on the Amon F1 car project when I came across a reference to a Proferssor Tom Boyce, a Canadian, who did the car's aerodynamics. It states that he had also done the shape on the Lola T70. First time I heard that reference.

Can anyone provide any more info?

I will create a database of all Canadians in Formula One. The drivers with F1 involvement are well known but there many who worked in many other capacities. One such example is Rod Campbell who worked in Canada for George Eaton and did the BRM deal and then was in F1 with Brett Lunger, Walter Wolf and Mo Nunn's Ensign project. Although after that he ended up in the States and worked on Ford racing projects for years he maintained many F1 ties. I have a couple of other names that I will do some more work on and add into the dscussion

This will be very useful for our Archives and I thank you all for your assiatance in advance

[GeorgeTheCar]

Canadians who have driven F1 cars

Allen Berg
Bill Brack
Peter Broeker
John Cannon
John Cordts
George Eaton
Ludwig Heimrath
Al Pease
Peter Ryan **
Gilles Villeneuve
Jacques Villeneuve
Jacques Villeneuve WDC
Eppie Wietzes

updated as corrected in the thread with Thanks

[FLB]

Are you going to include Canadian journalists and photographers as well? For one, I really think Lionel Birnbom's pictures should be featured somewhere. I've mainly seen his pictures in Gerry Donaldson's books. I don't know if he's well-known internationally, but his work is certainly as good as most as I have seen published IMHO.

[GeorgeTheCar]

That is a good idea.

We do know Lionel Birnbom and are in receipt of his archives although not yet his photos. We are in discussion and hope to see them as part of our archive some day.

Allan de la Plante is another Canadian photographer who spent several years shooting F1. I worled with Allan on his second Villeneuve book as a researcher.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by GeorgeTheCar
Canadians who have driven F1 cars

Alan Berg
Bill Brack
Peter Broeker
John Cannon
John Cordts
George Eaton
Al Pease
Peter Ryan
Gilles Villeneuve
Jacques Villeneuve
Jacques Villeneuve WCD
Eppie Wietzes

Speaking of the US driver Peter Ryan....

Originally posted by cabianca
Here we have a typical example of original sloppy reportage leading to the same misinformation being repeated many times over. Peter Ryan was an AMERICAN, not a Canadian. He got a Canadian competition license because he could get one at 18 as opposed to waiting until he was 21 in America, although he may have raced in the U.S. before his 21st birthday (10 Jun 61). Ryan also had a Canadian address to apply for his license - his mother owned a Canadian ski resort. He was from Philadelphia and either was a member of or tried out for the U.S. ski team. The mistake is easy to forgive, he had a Canadian license, he raced in Canada and he had a Canadian sponsor. He carried an American passport in Europe. The obits in the Philadelphia papers said he was an American. DOD, 2 Jun 62.

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
One reporter who cannot be accused of being "sloppy" is John Marsh. His report of the 1961 Canadian Grand Prix, published in Motor Racing magazine, ends with this paragraph.

In retrospect, it was nice for local fans to see a Canadian driver win, although Peter Ryan cannot actually be considered a Canadian, as he is an American citizen residing in Canada.....

[m.tanney]

  Peter Ryan was born in Philadelphia to American parents in June of 1940. Therefore, he had American citizenship. At the time, Ryan's father was building the now famous ski resort at Mont Tremblant. He took his young family there to live. Peter Ryan grew up at Tremblant. In his teens, he went to boarding school in Toronto. Young Peter was one of the top junior skiers in Canada. He expressed hopes to race for Canada in the 1960 Winter Olympics. Ryan was on the Canadian national team in water skiing but the Olympic rules regarding citizenship were stricter. As a foreign born minor, whose parents were not Canadian at the time of his birth, he would not qualify for Canadian citizenship until he turned 21 - which would be more than a year after the Olympics. So Ryan could not ski for Canada at Squaw Valley. In a fit of teenage pique, he decided to try out for the U.S. team. I'm not sure how that turned out. In any case, an injury on the slopes forced him to look for a new sport. He took up automobile racing. Naturally, he had a Canadian licence. Ryan raced as a Canadian because he had lived (almost) his whole life in Canada and saw himself as a Canadian. He said so in a number of interviews. In an obituary piece published in the Montreal Gazette, he was quoted as saying, "Even though I'm an American by birth, I consider myself a Canadian. The only thing I haven't done is make it legal". Ryan was entitled to claim his Canadian citizenship in June of 1961. He was too busy with racing. The offseason of 1961-62 saw him preparing for the move to England. At the time of his death at Reims in June of 1962, Ryan still hadn't "made it legal", though he was travelling on a Canadian passport. The body was flown home to Canada and Peter Ryan was buried near his father in the churchyard at Tremblant.
  Legally, Peter Ryan was an American citizen, but he raced as a Canadian - and not just because he carried a Canadian licence. In later years there were young Americans who came north to get racing licences before they could get licenced at home. David Loring comes to mind. So does the motorcycle racer Steve Baker. But they did not describe themselves as Canadians and the Canadians did not claim them as one of their own. That was not the case with Ryan. He was a Canadian who happened to have been born in the United States. Do you argue the legaities (documented citizenship, residence, passport, racing licence), or do you respect the man's own views as to whether he was Canadian or not?

Mike

[philippe charuest]

well i thinq that this point is settle for good ;)

[KJJ]

Shouldn't Ludwig Heimrath be in that list of Canadian F1 drivers?

Great post m.tanney

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by m.tanney
At the time of his death at Reims in June of 1962, Ryan still hadn't "made it legal", though he was travelling on a Canadian passport.

I don't get that bit

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by KJJ
Shouldn't Ludwig Heimrath be in that list of Canadian F1 drivers?

Great post m.tanney

  Thank you, KJJ.
  You are right about Heimrath. Just as there is more to motor racing than Formula 1, there is more to Formula 1 than the WDC. Ludwig Heimrath did do a Formula 1 race: the non-championship event at Pau in 1962. He drove for Porsche - apparently a reward for winning the 1961 Canadian Championship with an RS60.

  Getting back to the original thrust of the thread:

The drivers with F1 involvement are well known but there many who worked in many other capacities.

I would think that Francois-Michel Gregoire's books would be useful in finding current or more recent participants. Who Works in Formula One was first published in 1997. The eighth edition was published in 2005. Gregoire has also authored Who Works in.... books on CART, MotoGP, World Rallying, NASCAR and motorsports worldwide.
  Max Boxstrom is a Canadian racing car designer who has worked in the U.K. for a long time. Aerodynamicist Denis Falconer did body work for a number of British built lower formulae cars. I don't know if either of them ever worked in Formula 1. There was the mysterious Trebron designer, Norbert somethingorother (or was it somethingorother Norbert?). But does it count if the car never turned a wheel?

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by David McKinney

I don't get that bit

  Good question - and something I should have looked into before adding that to my post. I thought I knew the answer, but the more I look into the history of Canadian passports and citizenship, the more complicated it gets. There was no such thing as Canadian citizenship until 1947, but Canada had been issuing passports since 1867. Before 1947, they were issued to British subjects, by birth or naturalization, resident in Canada - yet I know of one person who travelled on a Canadian passport for at least twenty years after leaving Canada. From 1919 on, passports were issued for five years, and could be renewed for another five. After 1947, they were issued only to Canadian citizens. My best guess is that either a) Ryan's mother took Canadian citizenship at some point and that, as a minor, he got his passport through her which han't expired yet, or b) the author of the press report that mentioned his passport got it wrong (if there's one thing I've learned doing research, it's that you can't always count on the news media getting it right). Either way, the real answer as to whether Ryan was an American or a Canadian lies, IMHO, in his life story and his own words.

Mike

[macoran]

The somethingorother is Canadian architect Norbert Hamy B.Arch...M.Phil...MRAIC

Not only envisaged the Trebron F1 entry, but also designed the Trebron DRC no lean/roll
suspension systems

BTW... Trebron is Norbert spelled backwards

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Speaking of the US driver Peter Ryan....

Sorry, but this was just me stirring the pot a bit. It was too tempting a topic and since it wasn't on my Lenten list....

Mike makes the case pretty much along the lines that I think that I bought into awhile ago and raises the issue of whether or not it really matters whether he was US or Canadian or from Alpha Centuri. Indeed, he is merely one case study among the many in American -- as in North American -- racing where nationality, identity, and zeitgeist all tumble into a pile and make things a bit of a mess when it comes to labeling. We, as a whole, seem determined to eliminate all the ambiguity possible in as many aspects of motor racing as possible simply because ambiguity screws up our databases.

I have generally tended to look upon Ryan as Canadian even though I knew he was an (US) American. In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter technically what his nationality was. However, his contributions to the legacy of Canadian motor sport seems to justify that Canada, rather more than the US, embrace and honor Ryan.

Regardless of his nationality, Ryan's tragic loss left us all the poorer for it.

[FLB]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
However, his contributions to the legacy of Canadian motor sport seems to justify that Canada, rather more than the US, embrace and honor Ryan.

Regardless of his nationality, Ryan's tragic loss left us all the poorer for it.

If you want to go to Le Circuit Mont-Tremblant, coming from Montreal, you take Highway 15 North, which becomes Route 117.

You exit at Montée Ryan

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by GeorgeTheCar
Canadians who have driven F1 cars

Alan Berg
Bill Brack
Peter Broeker
John Cannon
John Cordts
George Eaton
Al Pease
Peter Ryan
Gilles Villeneuve
Jacques Villeneuve
Jacques Villeneuve WCD
Eppie Wietzes

Allen Berg, actually...

[GeorgeTheCar]

Maurizio Leschiutta is a University of Waterloo engineering grad who has worked in the Ferarri F1 engine group, was the engineering liason with Sauber and has now moved over to the Maserati Group.

[TEJ]

There were a couple of young engineers from University of British Columbia in Vancouver that went to work with Ferrari Grand Prix after being a part of the UBC Formula SAE team.

[MGAdams]

Originally posted by macoran
The somethingorother is Canadian architect Norbert Hamy B.Arch...M.Phil...MRAIC

Not only envisaged the Trebron F1 entry, but also designed the Trebron DRC no lean/roll
suspension systems

BTW... Trebron is Norbert spelled backwards

Fascinating surprise to read that name .. as I recall helping a friend move around a homebuilt Formula Junior chassis from the 60's that was designed by Hamy. I will investigate more. It appears that Hamy has a patent for the suspension.

http://www.uspto.gov...7-20050906.html

George ... he is in Toronto.

MGAdams

[Vicuna]

Should I be surprised at the relatively few Canadian F1 drivers?

Compared to say Sweden, Finland, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa - taking into account population size, wealth etc and the fact that they've had a Grand Prix for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SINCE 1967.

It's not as if there were a ton of Canadians that could have gone F1 but became USAC/CART stars instead.

[macoran]

MGAdams,
any chance you would know of pics of that FJ car ?
I am sure there would be some special things on it as it designed
by Mr.Trebron !

[GeorgeTheCar]

Should I be surprised at the relatively few Canadian F1 drivers?

The presence of the F1 race didn't have much impact but the coming of FFord did. Prior to FFord there was little concentrated single seater racing.

You can track FFord and big fields from 1968 on to the adoption of Formula B as the national championship in 1971 which developed into Atlantics which yielded Gilles Villeneuve.

Prior to the 70's a lot of racing was pretty local and people didn't think of F1. The exception that proved that rule was Peter Ryan but his death really slowed down progress in that direction.

We really didn't see a significant development of Canadian drivers for a couple of decades until the Players Driver Development program which started with Jacques Villeneue and Claude Bourbonnais.

THis did create a pool of drivers in CART and ChampCar.

One of the challenges that has faced Canadian racers was the prevalence in our business community of branch plants with head officesbased in the US and often decisions were not local and thus did not support the development of Canadian drivers.

[GeorgeTheCar]

We shouldn't forget the first Canadian built car in a Formula 1 race, Formula Ferocious built by Bill Sadler, http://www.atlasf1.c...ighlight=Sadler, and the later Stebros by Peter Broeker.

Canadian presence in top level racing was limited by Bill's retirement from the sport.

[macoran]

I'll have a look in the attic.
I should still have a story and a cutaway of the Sadler somewhere.

[philippe charuest]

Originally posted by Vicuna
Should I be surprised at the relatively few Canadian F1 drivers?

Compared to say Sweden, Finland, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa - taking into account population size, wealth etc and the fact that they've had a Grand Prix for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SINCE 1967.

It's not as if there were a ton of Canadians that could have gone F1 but became USAC/CART stars instead.

for the english canadian i guess it could only be explain by a certain lack of interest for motorsport, on the other hand for the french canadian its socio-economic. french canadian in a large majority were extremely poor people , 40 years ago the average income of the french canadian was around 40 % of the average income of english canadian, 85% of the capital in québec was own by the english canadian minority( ± 15% of the québec pop) , there was no more french canadian tennis or golf player or yachtman or whatever for the same reason ,general poverty and the invisible walls of discrimination . later things have change slowly and gradually for the better ,but still as you all know most people start in that sport with the family money and in québec theres not many "old" fortune.

[mp4]

John Graham

[slucas]

John Graham?

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Don't get me started on John Graham, I beg you.

[slucas]

I get the feeling you and I have similar thoughts with regard to John, or at least his driving talent.
He sure knew how to get sponsors for his racing though.
Sorry if this gets you started.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

slucas:

Agreed on his ability to snag sponsors. Obviously, a saleable product. But I couldn't help but laugh when he ran in the CanAm in 1983 partnering, iirc, Jim Crawford in identical March-Cosworths. Jim ran the car hard and JG was miles behind. The humour? JG's sponsor was none other than Canadian folk icon, Gordon Lightfoot, and JG's car had "Lightfoot" boldly painted in large script on the side of his car. Never was a sponsor more appropriate.

(It's not you, is it, Steve? Jesus!)

[slucas]

That is really funny! How did I miss that connection. I knew Jim somewhat and I doubt it got by him.
Who's Steve Jesus?

[slucas]

What if MP4 is John Graham?

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Hmmm... True enough.

End of Story

Sorry, slucas. As for the 'Steve' business, I was confusing you with a possible racing buddy of long, long ago. I do that a lot now days.

[mp4]

Originally posted by slucas
What if MP4 is John Graham?

I AM NOT John Graham. I met him at Watkins Glen, during a GTP race. At that point, there had been speculation that he might me signed for Minardi.

I asked him about that and he became very grouchy. Very quickly.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by GeorgeTheCar
We shouldn't forget the first Canadian built car in a Formula 1 race, Formula Ferocious built by Bill Sadler, [

The Sadler "FF" mentioned above hardly was a F-1 car. It was a rear engine monoposto, powered by a Chevy V-8, driving through a one speed rear end. Formula Libre, yes. Formula 1, no. So it never ran in a F-1 race. F-Libre race, yes, F-1 no.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Sorry, but I can't recall whether or not I've thrown the following image up here at TNF. Anywho...

Taken @ Mosport circa 2006. The Sadler Libre car. She's a beauty. Owner, Jack Boxtrom...tall, in light blue shirt...stands behind the car.

[IanRestall]

Going back to the original post, I am in regular contact with Tom Boyce (in fact he's with me now). I'm sure he wouldn't object to contributing to research on Canadians in motorsport.

 

Tom was telling me about his exploits in the 1968 London-Sydney Rally, co-driving for Lady Jean Denton in a pink MGB.

I can't imagine its coincidence that later the same year Hanna Barbera brought Penelope Pittstop to our screens, competing in multiple stage rally races in her pink racecar??

 

Incidentally, how would I go about trying to trace the MGB? I haven't much to go on. Tom would love to know if it still exists and I'm pretty ignorant of this stuff.

 

Thanks

[arttidesco]

If you know the full registration you can type it in and enter MG as the make following >vehicle enquiry/next on this link to see if the cars is still licensed in the UK.

[Tim Murray]

Period photo here:

 

http://www.photohist...product=pjr0074

[arttidesco]

Looks like it has not been on the road in the UK for some time then Tim

[Tim Murray]

Agreed, but it seems there's a good chance it still exists somewhere. According to this site, in the November 1993 edition of MG Enthusiast magazine the following two articles appeared:

 

- Marathon task ahead for Martin – discovery of Jean Denton's 1968 LondonSydney Marathon MGB, UMD534F

 

- You could do it in an MGB - preparation of UMD534F

 

ETA: ... and here's an interesting article describing how Tom Boyce fitted a borrowed radiator to the MGB in Australia:

 

http://mgbsmadeinaus...n-Car-Rally.pdf

Edited by Tim Murray, 15 October 2013 - 18:33.

[Robin Fairservice]

I have a faint memory that says that Stirling Moss had a Canadian Driving licence for a while because he had lost his British Licence because of some highway misdemeanour.  Am I right or going senile?

[D-Type]

Not yet! It's in the Robert Edwards biography on page 259.  And also in his period autobiography A Turn at the Wheel which I no longer own.  In 1960 SCM was caught changing lanes in the Mersey Tunnel and had his driving licence revoked. 

 

To hold an international competition licence he had to have a national one, to hold a British competition licence he had to have a valid driving licence.  So he obtained an American (presumably US) competition licence which allowed him to enter national events in the USA and international ones elsewhere.  But he couldn't drive on the road in Britain until the suspension period was up.

[D-Type]

Going back to the original topic, were any members of the Walter Wolf Racing Team Canadians?

[Nigel Beresford]

I don't think it's been mentioned here that Paul Tracy drove a Benetton at a test in Estoril in 1994.