83 replies to this topic

[ExFlagMan]

This always puzzled me as a nipper Barry. I recall in early books that I picked up from my library, and perhaps in my "Letts" motor racing diaries that it indicated a round sweep into Hill Top instead of a most definite 180 degree turn. Also it was dubbed "Covert Bend", pre Esso. I think it has the "sweep" in some of my 60s programmes too.

I mentioned it to Phil last Thursday as he brought along a selection of old programmes with the "sweep" depicted, and I recall he said he had no idea of why it was misrepresented, Sorry Phil if my memory has failed (again).

Rob

I have always felt the same way about the published maps of Oulton Park, especially the one that appeared in the programmes prior to the 'Fosters' emasculation of the circuit.
I believe that the inaccuracies are due to the fact that the map was produced from an old aerial photo of the circuit - a very large copy of which used to reside in the back of a garage next to the old scrutineering bays in the paddock. This photo appeared to have been taken from a fairly oblique angle with the camera position some way away from the circuit behind Old Hall - hence the curves at Island round to Hill Top appear much more accute that they are in practice.

I have also been looking at some copies of Cliff Hammond's old Oulton Park photos that I have and these show that the run from Shell to Hill Top appears to be a very long sweeping curve - just as I recall it from the early 70's.

[Barry Boor]

I think I've made a better job of it this time.

From:



to:

[elansprint72]

Barry,
Druids has two apexes (apices?!) could you fit a tiny straight piece in?

Mid Cheshire Motor Racing Club used to have a home-built four lane Oulton Track back in the 70s, it used to get set up in the Wellgreen pub near Hale Barns. It was made from timber with copper strips for the conductors.

Edited by elansprint72, 22 March 2011 - 21:24.

[Barry Boor]

O.K, Pete, see above image.

I have two pieces of track made as described, for my early Monaco; Tabac-Gasworks-St. Devote and the curve around the harbour. (Neither is possible with commercially produced Scalextric track.)

Edited by Barry Boor, 22 March 2011 - 23:46.

[elansprint72]

O.K, Pete, see above image.

I have two pieces of track made as described, for my early Monaco; Tabac-Gasworks-St. Devote and the curve around the harbour. (Neither is possible with commercially produced Scalextric track.)

Barry, that's it! But you might need a wider run-off area!

[Barry Boor]

The carpet has all the properties of a gravel trap!

[elansprint72]

Talking of maps of the circuit; there is a very odd one on page 11 of "From a dream to Reality" (it is an odd book!) this shows a dotted straight road running from the exit of the old Island Hairpin to a 30 degree bend to the inside of the Knickerbrook Corner, a short straight and then into Range Corner at about its half-way point i.e. the track came over Hill-Top on a different line and ran across where Fosters now is.

I do not believe this dotted section can ever have been constructed but it is interesting that it was at least considered.

Of course, those with long memories will recall the The Cascades was originally a right-hand bend before the short straight to Range Corner. This can be seen on KingsleyRob's film clip on the other current thread, the camera position (behind the oil tins) is the middle of The (old) Cascades.

In The Motor, Feb 11th 1953, there was a map in the piece entitled "A road racing circuit in North-West England" which showed the first circuit with some photos of the estate showing the military roads, some of which were used for the track. This was reproduced in the 25th Anniversary Brochure but is pretty small in size; I'll try to scan it this evening but it may not work out.

[ExFlagMan]

Talking of maps of the circuit; there is a very odd one on page 11 of "From a dream to Reality" (it is an odd book!) this shows a dotted straight road running from the exit of the old Island Hairpin to a 30 degree bend to the inside of the Knickerbrook Corner, a short straight and then into Range Corner at about its half-way point i.e. the track came over Hill-Top on a different line and ran across where Fosters now is.

I do not believe this dotted section can ever have been constructed but it is interesting that it was at least considered.

That sounds something like that proposed as a solution to the speeds into Knickerbrook following Warwick's accident. I think it was rejected on cost grounds and also as it would have upset some of the locals as it would have taken the track marginally closer to their properties and they claimed would have increased the noise.

It could have been interesting as it would have run further up the slope into what is the spectator area overlooking the run down to Knicker and one idea was that the bend could have been banked!

[Alan Cox]

Andew Kitson sent me scans of an article from the late-lamented "Motor Racing" magazine (the John Blunsden one) from the 1960s which showed an architect's proposal for a pits/grandsatnd complex on the start/finish straight with the building arching over the circuit in very futuristic style. It also showed a suggestion for a circuit extension with a left turn after Old Hall Corner into the field which is now used as a car park and returning to the existing circuit just before Cascades.

[elansprint72]

That sounds something like that proposed as a solution to the speeds into Knickerbrook following Warwick's accident. I think it was rejected on cost grounds and also as it would have upset some of the locals as it would have taken the track marginally closer to their properties and they claimed would have increased the noise.

It could have been interesting as it would have run further up the slope into what is the spectator area overlooking the run down to Knicker and one idea was that the bend could have been banked!

Perhaps I did not explain that too clearly! This was a fairly early map- perhaps even a proposal for the extension to Island and Esso, with an alternative shown dotted. The dotted track was the opposite of what you wrote- it would be further away from the properties and would have been on the opposite side of today's track, further away from the spectator area. I'll try to scan this one too.

[alansart]

a home-built four lane Oulton Track back in the 70s, it used to get set up in the Wellgreen pub near Hale Barns.

Sadly, no longer there. Track and Pub

[Kingsleyrob]

Barry, I know you are a stickler for detail so here goes...

My observation is that Esso is a constant radius for 180 degrees, then eases a little as it turns a few more degrees. Also, your new layout (which looks great) doesn't take into account the left kink before Druids.

Sad as I am. and admitting to scrutinising Google Earth in the early hours, it surprised me that if you draw a line roughly continuing the start/finish straight, the tip of Esso would not reach it. By my estimation anyway, I didn't resort to actually drawing said line.

I'll let you get off to the Millenium Shed and do a spot of head sctratching.

Rob

[Barry Boor]

Nope, I'm happy with it the way it is, Rob. I could take pedanticism too far.

In fact I have already run the first practice session for the 1959 British Empire Trophy F.2 race.

Graham Hill fastest so far....

[Tim Murray]

I could take pedanticism too far.

Sorry, not possible on TNF.

In fact I have already run the first practice session for the 1959 British Empire Trophy F.2 race.

Graham Hill fastest so far....

FORZA FRY!!

[Barry Boor]

Not entered for that race, sadly, Tim. Well, sorry, entered but DNA. I have stuck to the drivers that actually ran there, minus one or two that I simply don't have enough Coopers for. (Whitehouse, Stuart, Wicken, Stoop, Jack and Bill Moss)

I have transferred Bristow to a B.R.P Cooper, leaving dear old George without a drive.

[Repco22]

QUOTE (Barry Boor @ Mar 23 2011, 12:38)
I could take pedanticism too far.



[quote name='Tim Murray' date='Mar 23 2011, 13:45' post='4906582']
Sorry, not possible on TNF.

Nice one Tim!

[Barry Boor]

Hmph!

[glyn parham]

I have transferred Bristow to a B.R.P Cooper, leaving dear old George without a drive.

I am at work just under a mile from his sons house, shall I go and tell him that George has been left without a drive?

Glyn

[Barry Boor]

You could do, Glyn, and while you are there tell him his Dad finished 12th in the Aintree 200 recently with 3rd place in the F.2 class.

[elansprint72]

I'm struggling with scan quality but here are the two maps I referred to earlier.

This one is from the book and shows the "dotted-line alternative route" between Island Hairpin and Range Corner.



And this is the earlier, first circuit (if you can see it) from 1953. Copied from the 25th anniversary booklet.

[Barry Boor]

In that second image Old Hall Corner looks a seriously fast turn.

[MCS]

Pete

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to post those maps.

But how odd. An "island" at, guess where, Island Bend. Nothing visible now, but maybe the island and the bank closed up?

Also the serpentine appearance of the lake looks initially strange, but it is actually quite accurate. You are thrown by what appears to the eye as a pretty big lake, but it isn't if you look at the maps. It really is relatively slim.

Having said all of that, what a wonderful, wonderful place. I haven't been for years, but will go back one day.

[elansprint72]

I think that you are correct about the Island; if you go on www.bing.com/maps and type in Oulton Park, then zoom in and choose bird's eye view under the maps drop-down menu, you can fly around the circuit, using the rotate control (at the top) and zoom in; it is certainly possible to see the Island but it looks connected up. I'll perhaps walk down there this coming week-end.
On the Bing bird's-eye view there seems to be some sort of race meeting which involves both cars and COACHES going on at the same time!

Edit: For map-nerds only; this site shows the 1830 tithe maps twinned with the modern map, select Little Budworth.

Old and new maps twinned.

Edited by elansprint72, 23 March 2011 - 21:28.

[ExFlagMan]

I'm struggling with scan quality but here are the two maps I referred to earlier.

This one is from the book and shows the "dotted-line alternative route" between Island Hairpin and Range Corner.

That would have been quite interesting - either a causeway or bridge across the 'little lake' or a seriously deep water spash.

I have a supposedly accurate map of the circuit somewhere - I think supplied by the circuit in the mid 90's that we used to try and establish new and definitive flag points - will try and dig it out and compare it with your scan.

[glyn parham]

You could do, Glyn, and while you are there tell him his Dad finished 12th in the Aintree 200 recently with 3rd place in the F.2 class.

That will cheer him up then.

Glyn

[Barry Boor]

It's funny how we are all looking at maps and plans when Google Earth gives us the chance to look at things as they ACTUALLY ARE.

It has become a wonderful resource for me in my quest for accuracy in circuit shapes.

If only I could get to the bottom of Marc-en Baroeul and Vigevano...(sorry)

[ExFlagMan]

It's funny how we are all looking at maps and plans when Google Earth gives us the chance to look at things as they ACTUALLY ARE.

As opposed to as they where - can you run 1950's races on the modern circuit?

[ExFlagMan]

Have just looked at Google Earth and if you compare it with Pete's map it looks to me like the dotted line may be the line actually used for the track.

[Stephen W]

And this is the earlier, first circuit (if you can see it) from 1953. Copied from the 25th anniversary booklet.

I'm pretty certain this is a reproduction of an article from Autosport magazine.

[elansprint72]

I'm pretty certain this is a reproduction of an article from Autosport magazine.

Do keep up at the back....;) It was from The Motor, like wot I said in post #58. If you squint at the scan you can just make that out too.

Edited by elansprint72, 24 March 2011 - 15:00.

[elansprint72]

Whatever happened to the Oulton Park Spring Cup?

Spring woz sprung today but the wind came direct from the steppes.

Nice to see TNeffers on parade.

[MCS]

Did you find the "lost" island at Island Pete ?!

[elansprint72]

In true Swallows and Amazons fashion, Mr Rainford and myself mounted an expedition to the lost world beyond The Cascades and can confirm that there is indeed an island at Island, although it's not exactly clear blue water between it and the mainland. It is like an overgrown swamp but is very wet and muddy and I doubt if one could wade to the island.

There is a major-deforestation exercise going on on the opposite side of the lake to the circuit, some very big trees have been cleared; rumours of a lost Cheshire tribe living in the tree-tops cannot yet be totally discounted and I thought that I heard the distant sound of dueling banjos.

[Giraffe]

There is a major-deforestation exercise going on on the opposite side of the lake to the circuit, some very big trees have been cleared;

My thoughts turn to Blaster Bates...................