Jump to content


Photo

'Barn-find' Cooper


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#1 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,643 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 28 March 2006 - 18:08

Spotted as an entry in the forthcoming H & H Syon Park auction. The auctioneers' description is a little 'sketchy'.

Posted Image

Anyone able to fill in is history?

Advertisement

#2 David Beard

David Beard
  • Member

  • 4,885 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 28 March 2006 - 18:28

Originally posted by Alan Cox
Spotted as an entry in the forthcoming H & H Syon Park auction. The auctioneers' description is a little 'sketchy'.
Anyone able to fill in is history?


I was thinking about posting that too. Eight exhaust pipes?

#3 Gary C

Gary C
  • Member

  • 4,525 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 28 March 2006 - 18:40

it DOES look a bit strange !!

#4 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,569 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 March 2006 - 19:32

The Weston connection may have involved local racer/garagiste Fred Tuck, of the eponymous Fred Tuck Motors. He always had a wide variety of stock. Weston Speed Trials were still a big event 39 years ago, albeit on a shortened course, rather like Brighton, along the sea front. Saturday was usually part of the national sprint Championship, so all manner of things ran then, later with VSCC cars on the Sunday, so something which looks a little "oddball", qv the exhausts above, may have been quite normal. Then again I might be quite wrong................ any offers?

I recall as a spectator that the effect of the wind/breeze was critical, especially as the end of the course, which was essentially a flat out sprint, included the very long sweeping bend, plus the surface was none too smooth.

Roger Lund.

#5 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,569 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 March 2006 - 19:33

Looking again at the picture, are those two SUs under the engine cover, so possibly a Daimler V8??

RL

#6 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 28 March 2006 - 19:48

Maurice Mackie hillclimbed a T51 (ex Fred Tuck) in 1961 and ran in a few races in 1962. The car was later fitted with a Buick V8 engine and was offered by H&H early last year

#7 Michael Clark

Michael Clark
  • Member

  • 269 posts
  • Joined: November 05

Posted 28 March 2006 - 20:10

Was it Chris Summers (?) who put a V8 Chev into the back of something like a T51?

(no where near my books at the moment)

#8 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 3,022 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 28 March 2006 - 20:52

Before the Felday Daimler, Peter Westbury built a Cooper-Daimler. If this isn't it, it's quite similar. There was a photo on the front cover of Autosport at the time (sadly I sold my run of bound volumes so can't give a reference)

#9 Ted Walker

Ted Walker
  • Member

  • 1,432 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 29 March 2006 - 07:47

Ive been doing some background work on this for a couple of months.The owner has a sales invoice from Colin Watts dated I beleive 1967.The car has a Chevy on webers and its ersa box. Are you sure about the ex Harrison Cooper Buick that H&H sold David. I thought that was a converted junior ?? Its a coincedence the name Mackie ?? ps Colin Watts was well known in the west country with his Vee Twin Cooper,Ican no trace of him using a Chevy.

#10 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,643 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 29 March 2006 - 07:58

It has, presumably, been last used for circuit racing judging by the rear-view mirrors still fitted?

#11 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 29 March 2006 - 11:57

I didn't say the 2005 H&H car (ex-Maurice Mackie) was ex-Harrison - are you saying it was?
The timing does fit

#12 Ted Walker

Ted Walker
  • Member

  • 1,432 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 30 March 2006 - 08:17

It was David.Complete with Mclaren rear wheels,thats why I was asking about the Mackie connection. Also the date 61.Thats very early for a chevy in a cooper.Chris Summers was one of the first but not until 63 ???. Could it be that Mr Mackie had 2 cars ,one after the other ??? OR the date on this invoice is 61 not 67.

#13 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 30 March 2006 - 08:37

I am jumping to the conclusion that the 2005 H&H car is the same as the 2006 H&H car. Should I?
As far as I know, Maurice Mackie ran his T51 with a Climax engine. The GM V8 went in at an unknown later date (if this car was Harrison's, 1964 would be the date for the transfusion)

#14 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,569 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 30 March 2006 - 08:49

Probably not connected at all;, but perhaps a coincidence.
I was looking through some old, loaned, race programmes last night for something else, and in trhe 1961 British Empire Trophy, Intercontintal regs, at Silverstone, featuring a Scarab on the cover, there is an entry of a Cooper for Tony Marsh by Fred Tuck cars with an engine size of 2800cc. The other British entrants would all seem to have been running 2.5 litre FPFs, clearly too soon for Fred to have an Indy 2.75 FPF so one wonders what the 2.8litre engine was. Daimler perhaps? No notes on the prog to show he dns or dnf.

RL

#15 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 30 March 2006 - 08:56

The Autosport preview also says 2800cc, no engine named, but their report of the race describes it as a 2.5 Climax

#16 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,569 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 30 March 2006 - 10:25

David, many thanks for the prompt clarification; just trying to help, without clutching at straws............

RL

#17 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 30 March 2006 - 12:39

The Tuck/Marsh Empire Trophy car is not the car we are talking about (or might be)
Tuck bought and sold Coopers and didn't always hold onto them for long
(At one stage he was advertising seven Cooper-Climax single-seaters :stoned: )

#18 Sharman

Sharman
  • Member

  • 2,317 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 30 March 2006 - 12:56

I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse, but if the car shown has a Chevy installed it has very small diameter tail pipes. I remember the Westbury Cooper/Daimler running at a CUMC sprint at Snet in the early 60s

#19 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 3,022 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 30 March 2006 - 19:40

Originally posted by David McKinney
The Autosport preview also says 2800cc, no engine named, but their report of the race describes it as a 2.5 Climax


A 2800cc version of the Coventry-Climax FPF was used in the short-lived 3-litre "Inter-Continental Formula" I seem to recall. Motor Sport is not specific about the capacities of the entry in the 1961 International Trophy.
You can be pretty sure that an SP250 Daimler engine would never have been a suitable replacement for an FPF unless you had no money!

Advertisement

#20 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 5,726 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 31 March 2006 - 10:41

This may shed a bit more light

http://www.classic-a...ries_index.html



#21 Terry Walker

Terry Walker
  • Member

  • 2,714 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 31 March 2006 - 10:47

It certainly does.

The poor old thing has led a rugged life. My money says Chev, but who made the box? Colotti? Doesn't look like a C5S.

#22 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 5,726 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 31 March 2006 - 11:31

It's certainly no Climax !

I think those destinctive alloy rocker box covers which were standard on the Daimler might be a give away.

That V8 1959-64 in the SP250 and 2.5 litre version of the Mk 2 Jaguar saloon 2548cc a feeble 140 BHP in standard road going form

#23 Terry Walker

Terry Walker
  • Member

  • 2,714 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 31 March 2006 - 12:58

Surely the Daimler V8 was a hemi, with the plugs down the centre of the rocker cover?

This one's a wedge head.

#24 Terry Walker

Terry Walker
  • Member

  • 2,714 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 31 March 2006 - 13:13

Just looked at some pics of a Daimler 2.5 V8. No way it's a Daimler engine. Detroit iron for sure. I'm no authority on the small block chev but it looks like one to me.

#25 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 5,726 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 31 March 2006 - 14:46

Originally posted by Terry Walker
Surely the Daimler V8 was a hemi, with the plugs down the centre of the rocker cover?


Yes that's true.

#26 Tom Glowacki

Tom Glowacki
  • Member

  • 243 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 01 April 2006 - 02:19

This is going to sound wierd, but here goes. Given the width of the valve covers and the close spacing of the exhaust ports on the middle two cylinders, I'd bet that engine is a Pontiac.

#27 Ted Walker

Ted Walker
  • Member

  • 1,432 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 01 April 2006 - 07:40

ITS A CHEVY ITS A CHEVY.. Not a Daimler,Pontiac,Ford or even a prototype Skoda but a CHEVY

#28 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,859 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 01 April 2006 - 09:32

Surely it's two prototype Skodas. The four cylinder engines. Side by side. It makes complete sense now you mention it.

#29 Ted Walker

Ted Walker
  • Member

  • 1,432 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 01 April 2006 - 16:42

After all Allen it is Aprils Fools Day !!!!! Just looked at my photos of Fred Tucks Cooper Maserati and its not that one.

#30 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,643 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 14 July 2006 - 17:50

Problem solved! It appears that this car is ex-David Hepworth and has been bought at the auction by Hepworth's sons Stephen and Andrew. Hepworth bought it minus engine and inserted one of two Chevy engines which he had bought from John Willment (the second going into his Healey-Chevy).

According to the auctioneers, Stephen says "The biggest giveaway were the dents in the nose cone. Dad created those in the 60s putting the car in his transporter and they're still there after all this time. We reckon the car has hardly turned a wheel since he sold it all those years ago."

He also believes that they still have the chassis plate which may confirm whether it is an ex-Jack Brabham car.

#31 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,314 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 14 July 2006 - 20:39

Originally posted by Alan Cox
... the chassis plate which may confirm whether it is an ex-Jack Brabham car.


Sorry Alan, but :rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: ....

DCN

#32 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,859 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 14 July 2006 - 21:52

I'm glad you said that Doug - I was trying so hard to restrain myself.

#33 T54

T54
  • Member

  • 2,479 posts
  • Joined: November 03

Posted 14 July 2006 - 23:33

I HAVE to add:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :eek: :drunk: :stoned: :cool:

#34 Ted Walker

Ted Walker
  • Member

  • 1,432 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 15 July 2006 - 06:45

Im sure that the period hill climb reports would have mentioned this !!!!!!!!!!

#35 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 5,726 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 15 July 2006 - 07:14

Taking chassis plates off racing cars to keep them as momentos just before selling them certainly used to be a common if very misguided practice, resulting in a great many quite genuine cars then floating about without identity and traceable history. Then attempts are made to judge which car it would have been and re-identify it, which often turns out to be wrong. This is all on top of the people who knowingly try to pass of a lesser car as something it never was.

In any case what possible use is a chassis plate in a drawer from a car you once owned 30 years ago ? Its a daft practice.

#36 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:12

Originally posted by RTH
In any case what possible use is a chassis plate in a drawer from a car you once owned 30 years ago ? Its a daft practice.

Not at all
You later buy any old unidentifiable pile of rubbish, attach your old plate and Voila! Instant provenance and a vastly improved resale value

#37 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 5,726 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:17

That is very depressing .

#38 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,859 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:43

You think that's depressing? I'll give you depressing.

How about someone selling an Brabham chassis plate from a long-ago-wrecked BT18 on Ebay expressely so someone can attach it to a 'mystery' car.

Or someone selling two blank SCCA log books on Ebay for exactly the same reason.

Or buying some Fred Opert correspondence on Ebay so you can fake up his letterhead well enough for a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy to look totally convincing. OK, the last one is pure speculation but the other two are true. You can see how easily someone could put together an utterly convincing provenance backed up by letters, log books and other paperwork. I would of course add a list of previous owners that consisted entirely of people who had (coincidentally) since died and a list of results from SCCA races in the log book so obscure that nobody can check the results.

Depressing enough now?

Allen

#39 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 15 July 2006 - 12:30

I've got some correspondence from Fred Opert if anyone's interested :lol:

Advertisement

#40 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,643 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 15 July 2006 - 12:33

Posted Image Pic via H & H Auctions/Hepworth archive

#41 T54

T54
  • Member

  • 2,479 posts
  • Joined: November 03

Posted 15 July 2006 - 17:37

How about someone selling an Brabham chassis plate from a long-ago-wrecked BT18 on Ebay expressely so someone can attach it to a 'mystery' car.



Hey, I got a couple of those... I am planning a retirement sale. :)

#42 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,569 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 05 January 2007 - 22:33

I see in this month's C&SC that there is almost a half page spread about this car as the Hepworths are anxious to find out more about it after 1967-ish. Apparently the dent on the nose was from a bump when David Hepworth ran into the trailer in the days of old. They are also looking to see if their father's old Healey Chev still exists, see Austin Healey Chev thread for photo of that car which was posted for me.


Roger Lund..

#43 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,024 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 05 January 2007 - 22:56

Originally posted by T54


Hey, I got a couple of those... I am planning a retirement sale. :)

Well, it's easier to make a chassis plate than a car...
...but if you also write the definitive history of a marque you'll know where the gaps are.

#44 Hepster

Hepster
  • New Member

  • 3 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 14 November 2008 - 19:28

Great to see so much interest in my Father David Hepworth's old Cooper which is now undergoing restoration and will be completed early next year. :clap:
With regard to its original history we are still given the impression this was the first ever T43 although we have not turned up anything definate as yet and any assistance would be appreciated, we do however know that prior to my father owning the car it competed in Formula 1 races driven by Geoff Richardson whilst fitted with an Alta engine. We also know the car was not new when aquired by Mr Richardson so the original history still needs to be unearthed.
The comments about the removal of chassis plates does appear to suggest some planned profiteering what should be understood that in period when these plates were removed for whatever whether intential or accidental was not unusual and not something anyone would have found unusual as these cars were surplus to requirements and not of significant value.
I do appreciate there has been an amount of plate duplication in recent years but this did not occur in the 60's.
For the record we bought the car for family history purposes not to make a profit by creating a car we do feel that if the car does have genuine history it should be known as the T43 made a great leap in the way Formula 1 changed. We have not traced the chassis plate and the chassis which has been stripped to bare metal shows no sign of numbers stamped or even rivet holes from a plate. It has been sugested that this along with various signs of modification could indicate this was infact the prototype chassis.
Any help would be appreciated.

#45 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,643 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 14 November 2008 - 20:24

Good to see you here, Hepster. I was hoping to hear news of how this Cooper restoration was progressing, and perhaps you could post some pics when you have worked out how to post (I see from the McLaren M25 thread that you haven't yet got to grips with that yet). I'm sure you will have a lot of other pics that will be of interest to TNF members.

Have you caught up with the following thread yet?
http://forums.autosp...y=&pagenumber=1

#46 Dutchy

Dutchy
  • Member

  • 648 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 17 November 2008 - 13:04

Originally posted by Hepster
Great to see so much interest in my Father David Hepworth's old Cooper which is now undergoing restoration and will be completed early next year. :clap:
With regard to its original history we are still given the impression this was the first ever T43 although we have not turned up anything definate as yet and any assistance would be appreciated, we do however know that prior to my father owning the car it competed in Formula 1 races driven by Geoff Richardson whilst fitted with an Alta engine. We also know the car was not new when aquired by Mr Richardson so the original history still needs to be unearthed.
The comments about the removal of chassis plates does appear to suggest some planned profiteering what should be understood that in period when these plates were removed for whatever whether intential or accidental was not unusual and not something anyone would have found unusual as these cars were surplus to requirements and not of significant value.
I do appreciate there has been an amount of plate duplication in recent years but this did not occur in the 60's.
For the record we bought the car for family history purposes not to make a profit by creating a car we do feel that if the car does have genuine history it should be known as the T43 made a great leap in the way Formula 1 changed. We have not traced the chassis plate and the chassis which has been stripped to bare metal shows no sign of numbers stamped or even rivet holes from a plate. It has been sugested that this along with various signs of modification could indicate this was infact the prototype chassis.
Any help would be appreciated.


I don't think the lack of a chassis plate is that significant as quite a few cars left Surbiton without one.