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'Bastardised' racing cars


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#1 Vicuna

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 22:53

The barn find Cooper T51 and the South African Cooper T20 or 23 with a Chev engine has got me wondering about other 'bastardisations' of open wheelers.

In NZ, and Australia, in particular we had various wierd and wonderful combinations. What are some other examples of engines being forced into spaces that were designed to accept something quite different?

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#2 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 23:08

Froilan Gonzalez ran a Ferrari chassis with a V8 Corvette engine in the Triangular Series between Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil in the late fifties... He won two (or three, I don't know well) titles. And, of course, there was a lot of Maserati chassis with series-derived engines in the Mecánica Argentina Formula 1 of the sixties.

#3 WDH74

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 02:40

I'm not sure it counts, but didn't Briggs Cunningham run a Healey Silverstone with a Cadillac mill stuffed under the bonnet? Healeys installed the motor, but I'm reasonably sure it wasn't in the catalog....but I suppose the Bu-Merc wouldn't qualify either, being more of a hotrod than a simple motor swap.

Another American concoction I can think of is the Chuck Porter Mercedes-Benz 300 SLS, which was built up from a wrecked Gullwing. After being decapitated and straightened out, the SLS started racing with its original motor, eventually getting first a Buick, then Chevy V-8. I think this car still exists, but can't remember at the moment.

Along similar lines, one of Max Balchowsky's Ol' Yellers was built up from the remains of an E-Type Jaguar, but I forget which one. (Yeller VIII?).

-William

#4 Frank S

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 04:15

One of the co-organizers of a 1969 (?) Tijuana road race failed to show up at a critical meeting the night before the event. We tracked him down at "his" mechanic's shop, where he was standing, hands on hips, "supervising" installation of a big-barreled VW Bug motor in his Dolphin International F-Jr chassis. Motor over here, frame over there, body around here someplace, and the torch cutting out motor mounts.

It didn't make the grid that weekend. Nor any other that I know of, in that configuration.

I understand the Dolphin was resurrected and is now better than new, but I've forgotten which it is.

--
Frank S

Edit: I think they'd be better descrbed as "mongrels".

#5 Muzza

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 04:23

Originally posted by Pablo Vignone
Froilan Gonzalez ran a Ferrari chassis with a V8 Corvette engine in the Triangular Series between Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil in the late fifties... He won two (or three, I don't know well) titles. And, of course, there was a lot of Maserati chassis with series-derived engines in the Mecánica Argentina Formula 1 of the sixties.


Spot on, Pablo - and it was the same in Brazil. Such bizarre hybrids "bastards" were commonly seen at the Formule Libre races of the late 1950s and early 1960s in Interlagos. Américo Cioffi, for example, often raced with a Maserati equipped with a Studebaker engine :drunk:, Roberto Galucci competed with a 250F with Corvette powerplant and so forth...

#6 antonvrs

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 05:26

I was a Tech Inspector(scrutineer to you chaps across the big water)for the California Sports Car Club in the '60s and we had a few mongrelized bastards.
I remember rejecting a Lotus 22 FJr that had a 260ci Ford stuffed in the back rather crudely.
Then there's the Maserati 4CLT with a similar Ford from a Cobra with 48mm downdraft Webers and "Kustom" bodywork known as the "Manta Ray" sitting in the Petersen Museum here in Los Angeles.
One of the 1962 Mickey Thompson Indy cars(which were really sort of overgrown Dolphin Juniors themselves) ended up with a 4cam Ford indy motor- now THAT was a flexy flyer if there ever was one.
In the '60s in So Cal they were stuffing small-block Chevys and Fords into anything and everything and calling it "developement".
Before that, one of the 1935 Miller-Ford front drive Indy cars went from flathead Ford V8 @150(?) hp to a Novi V8 with at least triple the power. I saw one of those Novi V8s on the Granatelli's dyno in about 1965 pulling well in excess of 750hp.
Anton

#7 antonvrs

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 05:35

There was also a 375 Ferrari with a 450S Maserati V8, a Tipo 61(Birdcage) Maserati with a 250TR Ferrari 12, a Lotus 11 powered by a Plymouth Valiant slant 6, a Lotus 7 with a Lancia Flaminia V6, a Bobtail Cooper with a Corvair flat 6, a Pontiac powered MGTC etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.
Oh, and I seem to remember that same 250TR motor finding it's way into the back of a Lotus 19 for a while.
Anton

#8 Stephen W

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 08:01

The world of Speed Eventing (Hillclimbs and Sprints) is full of such machines .....

1963 - David Good - 2.6 Cooper-Daimler T56; Bryan Eccles - 4.7 Cooper-Chevrolet T53

1964 - John Macklin - 3.5 Cooper-Buick T56; Wally Cuff - 2.6 Cooper-Daimler T52; Phil Scragg - 5.4 Cooper-Chevrolet Monaco

etc

#9 Allen Brown

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 09:52

Hard to know where to start. How about:

Cooper T81B + 7.2-litre Chrysler

Several Lotus 24s + 5-litre Fords and Chevys

F3 Brabham BT18 + 5-litre Chev

FJ Lotus 18 + 4.7-litre Shelby Ford

F3 Anson + 4.5-litre Rover

March 792 + turbocharged 4-litre Rover

FJ Lotus 22 + 4.5-litre(ish) Oldsmobile

The nuttiest had to be the March 721 with a jet engine in the back (which is not an April Fool's Day joke BTW). One of the oddest combinations in a F5000 race was probably a FJ Stanguellini powered by a 2-litre 4-cyl Triumph engine.

Allen

#10 Tomas Karlsson

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 11:28

In the Nordic Special series in Sweden in the early fifties we had an Alfa Romeo 8C Monza with a Ford V8-engine and a Maserati 6CM with a Ford V8 with Ardun heads.

#11 Teapot

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 11:53

What about the Doran Special that was campaigned by Doran/Lista Racing in the 2000 American Le Mans Series and in the 2001 Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series ? I believe it was the first Ferrari chassis equipped with an "unofficial" engine in many years, and for sure the last one to appear in a racing event of some resonance.
It was a Ferrari 333 SP chassis boasting in the engine bay a 4 Litre Judd V10 instead of the usual Ferrari V12, this swap undertaken as an extreme measure to found some competitiveness in an already obsolescent car. While heavily criticized by Ferrari's men and denied of any official acknowledgement by the Italian constructor (and renamed Doran Special), this "mongrel" was highly successful, winning the Watkins Glen 6 Hours and the Elkhart Lake 500 Miles for two consecutive years.

#12 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 16:47

What this all means is that old racing cars were once looked upon as old racing cars which might be recycled once again into something for the track rather than as an investment.... the latter sentiment being among the surest of signs that the Apocalypse is certainly upon us....

#13 Michael Clark

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 00:15

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
What this all means is that old racing cars were once looked upon as old racing cars which might be recycled once again into something for the track rather than as an investment....


Quite right

#14 A E Anderson

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 04:47

Originally posted by antonvrs
I was a Tech Inspector(scrutineer to you chaps across the big water)for the California Sports Car Club in the '60s and we had a few mongrelized bastards.
I remember rejecting a Lotus 22 FJr that had a 260ci Ford stuffed in the back rather crudely.
Then there's the Maserati 4CLT with a similar Ford from a Cobra with 48mm downdraft Webers and "Kustom" bodywork known as the "Manta Ray" sitting in the Petersen Museum here in Los Angeles.
One of the 1962 Mickey Thompson Indy cars(which were really sort of overgrown Dolphin Juniors themselves) ended up with a 4cam Ford indy motor- now THAT was a flexy flyer if there ever was one.
In the '60s in So Cal they were stuffing small-block Chevys and Fords into anything and everything and calling it "developement".
Before that, one of the 1935 Miller-Ford front drive Indy cars went from flathead Ford V8 @150(?) hp to a Novi V8 with at least triple the power. I saw one of those Novi V8s on the Granatelli's dyno in about 1965 pulling well in excess of 750hp.
Anton


Actually,

The Winfield V8 (A/K/A the first NOVI) was built for installation in the Miller-Ford chassis. As my father's cousin, Lee Norquest (one of the first chroniclers of the NOVI saga) told me, every NOVI engine built afterwords had the diameter and bolt patter of a flathead Ford bellhousing built into it. That first "NOVI" engine dyno'd in at 550hp, in 1941, or about 3X the HP of the Ford engine the cars were originally built around.

Art

#15 antonvrs

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 06:26

Art,
When I was 16 or so I had a '37 Ford flatback tudor sedan and my hotrod fantasy was to put a Novi V8 in it 'cause I knew it would bolt up to the Ford gearbox. Of course, it would have killed that box in minutes, but a fantasy is just that, a fantasy.
Anton

#16 A E Anderson

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 14:42

Originally posted by antonvrs
Art,
When I was 16 or so I had a '37 Ford flatback tudor sedan and my hotrod fantasy was to put a Novi V8 in it 'cause I knew it would bolt up to the Ford gearbox. Of course, it would have killed that box in minutes, but a fantasy is just that, a fantasy.
Anton


Yup,

That for sure would have been a fantasy, given that the Winfield/Novi V8 was a pretty high-strung engine! Even if the Ford gears could have held up to it (and probably they would have, given that while that engine had a ton of HP, it wasn't a rapid accelerator, given the very large centrifugal supercharger--built more for high rpm power than sudden acceleration/deceleration which would most likely have killed the supercharger drive!), you'd have had a lot of fun keeping it cooled down--huge thick radiator, requiring a massive amount of airflow through it, not to mention the intercooler as well.

Still, it would have gotten a lot of jealous stares from your buddies!

Art

#17 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 11:29

Surely the best bastard of all has to be the Ferrari race chassis placed under a Morris Minor body and fitted with a Chev V8 and raced quite successfully (Garth Souness and John Riley if memory serves) in the sixties, along with Ron Roycroft's Bugatti fitted with a Jaguar XK motor.
Frank Gardner's saloon racing Corvair was little more than an F5000 car with a Corvair looking body propped above it, and the same must go for Colin Hawker's DF VW, and Mick Hill's similar machine, which raced with a whole host of Skodas with racing cars under neath in the superloon days. I have also seen March and Lotus chassis used as grass track racers and hillclimbers in unsealed gravel hillclimbs.
One Ferrari F1 car had a touring car body (quite pretty) put on it and run on the road in NZ during the sixties.

#18 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 11:40

Originally posted by antonvrs
IBefore that, one of the 1935 Miller-Ford front drive Indy cars went from flathead Ford V8 @150(?) hp to a Novi V8 with at least triple the power. I saw one of those Novi V8s on the Granatelli's dyno in about 1965 pulling well in excess of 750hp.
Anton



Completely off topic: but any memories about that and/or other things you want to correspond about with me, on private email if you prefer so?


Henri Greuter

#19 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 11:44

Originally posted by A E Anderson


Actually,

The Winfield V8 (A/K/A the first NOVI) was built for installation in the Miller-Ford chassis. As my father's cousin, Lee Norquest (one of the first chroniclers of the NOVI saga) told me, every NOVI engine built afterwords had the diameter and bolt patter of a flathead Ford bellhousing built into it. That first "NOVI" engine dyno'd in at 550hp, in 1941, or about 3X the HP of the Ford engine the cars were originally built around.

Art



Art,

Your father's cousin was a clever man and many Novi fans owe more to him than they realize.

Apart from 3 times more powerful, I think the Winfield V8 was about twice as heavy as the FordV8 it replaced as well. Quite a miracle that Hepburn could finish the thing to begin with! Its handling must have been something else.


Henri Greuter

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#20 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 12:10

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich

One Ferrari F1 car had a touring car body (quite pretty) put on it and run on the road in NZ during the sixties.

Jackie Stewart drove this car with that body for a few laps at Wigram 1966? JYS was very gracious when he arrived back in pit lane. However it sounded great around the hangers and down the long back straight. Interested in finding out if the new body went with the car when sold ?

#21 ggnagy

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 12:15

Originally posted by Teapot
What about the Doran Special that was campaigned by Doran/Lista Racing in the 2000 American Le Mans Series and in the 2001 Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series ? I believe it was the first Ferrari chassis equipped with an "unofficial" engine in many years, and for sure the last one to appear in a racing event of some resonance.
It was a Ferrari 333 SP chassis boasting in the engine bay a 4 Litre Judd V10 instead of the usual Ferrari V12, this swap undertaken as an extreme measure to found some competitiveness in an already obsolescent car. While heavily criticized by Ferrari's men and denied of any official acknowledgement by the Italian constructor (and renamed Doran Special), this "mongrel" was highly successful, winning the Watkins Glen 6 Hours and the Elkhart Lake 500 Miles for two consecutive years.


Often unofficialy referred to as a "FUDD"

#22 Dutchy

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 12:16

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
Surely the best bastard of all has to be the Ferrari race chassis placed under a Morris Minor body and fitted with a Chev V8 and raced quite successfully (Garth Souness and John Riley if memory serves) in the sixties.


The Ferrari in qestion I believe started life as a Tipo 555 Super Squalo and has since been restored as such. Martin Stretton drove it at Monaco a few years ago.

#23 ggnagy

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 12:34

I would think that "2jr" would be a mongrel at least as famous as any.

But this thread raises some interesting questions.

1. Is it a mongel if it becomes respectable? The original Cobra, the Tiger, the Costello MGB V8 conversions?

2. Do drag racers count as "racing cars"? Austin Bantams, Morris Minors, and various small Fiats and Fords have allways been popular cars to modify and drop big v8s in.

3. Change the engine, and it's a mongrel, change the bodywork, and its a "special"? Devin bodywork ended up on any number of sports cars.


Perhaps a sign that doom is not impending for Mr Capps, one of the popular trends within a small part of the US club racing community has seen people taking older Formula (Continental/Atlantic/Ford) chassis and adapting them to chain driven motorcycle powerplants. Most of these also get full bodywork to run in the C and D sports racing classes. At least they don't have to widen the chassis for a second seat anymore, like their predecessor, who made a mongrel out of an old cooper. Whats he do now? Truck rentals or something. :p

#24 David McKinney

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 18:32

Originally posted by Patrick Fletcher

Jackie Stewart drove this car with that body for a few laps at Wigram 1966? JYS was very gracious when he arrived back in pit lane. However it sounded great around the hangers and down the long back straight. Interested in finding out if the new body went with the car when sold ?

Funny, I was thinking of a different GT-bodied ex-GP Ferrari when I read Huw's post - a 375 F1 car rebodied by Ferris de Joux. The one you mention was based on a Dino 246 chassis with 3-litre V12 engine. Both cars have long since been returned to pristine originality and yes, Patrick, Pat Hoare sold the Dino/V12 with its GT body. I believe though that when Neil Corner bought the car he took only the GP body away.

Dutchy, you're quite right about the Supersqualo

#25 starlet

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 19:45

Originally posted by Patrick Fletcher

Jackie Stewart drove this car with that body for a few laps at Wigram 1966?

1966 indeed. And the car was nicknamed 'Charlotte' !

#26 David McKinney

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 20:52

... though not until later ;)

#27 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 21:11

Originally posted by David McKinney

Funny, I was thinking of a different GT-bodied ex-GP Ferrari when I read Huw's post - a 375 F1 car rebodied by Ferris de Joux.

Sorry, I did jump the gun a bit picking the later car - any photos of the Ferris de Joux bodied 375 - have never seen what it looked like.

#28 D-Type

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 22:57

Have I got this right? :confused: There's three cars:

A 4.5 litre Ferrari 375 rebodied as a roadgoing GT by Ferris de Joux

A 555 Super Squalo rebodied with a Morris Minor body as the "Morrari" racing saloon. Did this have a 750 Monza engine or is that a different car? Later had a V8 Chevrolet. Is that correct? Did the Morris Minor body come first?

The Pat Hoare Dino 246 1960 Monza winning car, re-engined at the factory with a 3 litre V12 Testa Rossa engine. This was later rebodied with a 250 GTO-like GT body as a road car, in which form Jackie Stewart drove it. Bought by Neil Corner and returned to single seater form.

So which car in which form was Charlotte?

#29 David McKinney

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 05:07

That's pretty much it, D
The 555 Supersqualo had an 860 engine for racing in NZ and Australia, then the Corvette went in at the same time as the fitting of the Morris Minor body to create the Morrari
"Charlotte" was the nickname a later owned gave to the 3-litre car

Patrick,
I don't have any postable pictures of the DeJoux GT (as it was called). It perhaps looked more like a Maserati 3500GT than a Ferrrari (squarish styling)

#30 bill patterson

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 07:50

Surely this is an opportunity to post some before, during and after photographs - let's have some!!

#31 Robert Bailey

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 12:55

Cooper Type 53 Climax2.7 #F1 /61 was fitted with a 5 litre Ford in or about 1968 claimed to be Australias 1st F5000 and the owner Bob Minogue,whom was latter to dominate Australian historics in Ex VDS Lola T430.

#32 RDV

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 13:59

Brasil was rife with Ferraris , Maseratis and even a Talbot-Lago fitted with Corvette engines... they had a class of their own, Mecanica Continental. Usual reason was lack of engines to replaced the damaged originals, plus the extra grunt of the big cubes... didnt do much for handling though...

#33 Dutchy

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 14:14

A couple of 250Fs still out there apparently, waiting to be found

#34 Stephen W

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 15:40

Posted Image

Nigel Pow in the Brabham-Buick BT21C at a very dank and dark Prescott hillclimb.

#35 Allen Brown

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 12:29

Originally posted by Robert Bailey
Cooper Type 53 Climax2.7 #F1 /61 was fitted with a 5 litre Ford in or about 1968 claimed to be Australias 1st F5000 and the owner Bob Minogue,whom was latter to dominate Australian historics in Ex VDS Lola T430.

Robert

I'm very intruged by this car. Bob Minogue bought it from John Ceirpicki I believe but I haven't been able to discover any more about its origins. It's the car Alan Bannister had a few years ago (and presumably still does). Do you remember anything more about its early appearances?

Allen

#36 Robert Bailey

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 10:49

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Robert

I'm very intruged by this car. Bob Minogue bought it from John Ceirpicki I believe but I haven't been able to discover any more about its origins. It's the car Alan Bannister had a few years ago (and presumably still does). Do you remember anything more about its early appearances?

Allen

Hi Allen, my reference is John Blandens book circa 2004/05,Historic racing cars in Australia page185.1st owner Yeoman Credit raced by Salvadori in 1962 in NZ,including 4th in the NZ GP.Major shunt,then reappeared on Victorian country tracks with a holden engine.Bobs a good mate if you want more details I'll give you his email,regards Rob.

#37 Allen Brown

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 12:01

Rob

I've got John's book but I'm not sure how much of that history came directly from Alan. I'd like to be able to independently check the history - not because I doubt Alan in any way but because T53s have always been a particular interest of mine.

Could you PM Bob's email to me?

Thanks

Allen

#38 Terry Walker

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 13:59

How about this, formerly Bill Patterson's Cooper Climax ...

Posted Image

#39 Allen Brown

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 14:28

When was that taken Terry? Is that the Stan Starcavitch "SS1-11" sports car? I understood that car had been destroyed at some point.

This is another Cooper T53 that has divided into two: some parts unused when Don O'Sullivan turned it into the sports car somehow found their way to the US and were built up on a new T53 frame. That latter car was in vintage racing until a few years ago when it sold very cheaply at auction in the UK. The whereabouts of the sports car itself meanwhile remain a mystery.

Allen

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#40 Terry Walker

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 01:33

Yes, it's the final version of the Starcevich car, when Derek Vince owned it.

According to an article in Visor magazine, published when the car was announced, the Cooper Ford consisted of the front and rear bays of a Cooper Climax, and a new wide cockpit. It ran the Cooper 5 speed box and the small block Ford engine, under a simple sports body.

After Stan Starcevich bought it he crashed it twice, and by the time the second rebuild was complete, most of the Cooper parts were gone: the suspension was mostly Elfin, and the gearbox was a heavy duty 5-speed Colotti ( I think) as per GT 40. Perhaps someone traced the discarded bits and pieces from the Starcevich rebuilds. Certainly there's very little, if any, Cooper in the car today.

I can't imagine that any T53 alive today could rightfully claim the Patterson Cooper's racing history. That car was effectively destroyed and scrapped, and ceased to exist. On the other hand, the history of the Graduate is continuous all the way back to Cooper.

#41 Terry Walker

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 02:17

Few corrections: front upright and steering ex Matich. Gearbox ZF not Colotti. It looks like the brake calipers were about the only remaining original Cooper parts. It's not absolutely clear how much of the "final" specificaiton was Starcevich and how much resulted from Derek Vince's own chassis up rebuild in 1973.

#42 dretceterini

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 02:47

Many of the 750 and 1100cc "etceterinis" were bastardized a dozen times.

#43 Allen Brown

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 07:45

Terry

This is all new to me. I've never heard the name Derek Vince before and was under the impression the car was still with Starcevich in parts. So did Vince buy it about 1972 or 1973? Where has it been since then? Who owns it now?

Thanks

Allen

#44 Terry Walker

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 07:56

Derek went to work in the northwest in the 70s and the car was in storage in Geraldton for years, then it was sold. I believe I've seen pics of it being raced in Historics in the Eastern States, but I can't recall exactly where I saw that. On this forum, I shouldn't be surprised.

Derek Vince is an old-time racer of the 60s and 70s, always intermittent, running such things as an Elfin Streamliner 1172c sidevalve etc. Also, in the very early 60s, a Zephyr sedan with whitewall tyres and 30 degrees body roll....I'm not sure where he is now.

#45 Terry Walker

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 08:01

I used BB Search "Graduate" and came up with more stuff on this thread:

http://forums.atlasf...hlight=graduate

#46 Allen Brown

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 08:20

Aaron Lewis! I never thought to ask Aaron. I'll email him.

Thanks Terry

#47 Graham Clayton

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 06:59

Originally posted by Vicuna
In NZ, and Australia, in particular we had various wierd and wonderful combinations. What are some other examples of engines being forced into spaces that were designed to accept something quite different?


Hi Vicuna,

Here are several examples of "bastardised" cars that competed in the Australian Grand Prix in the period after WW2:

Doug McDonald - Bugatti/Dodge - Leyburn, 1949
L Robinson - Bugatti/Dodge - Nuriootpa, 1950 (are these two entries the same car?)
Bill McLachlan - T37 Bugatti/Ford V8, Bathurst, 1952
Peter Lowe - T37 Bugatti/Holden, Bathurst 1952
Curly Brydon - Ferrari/V8 Corvette, Bathurst 1958

#48 Stephen W

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 07:06

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
What this all means is that old racing cars were once looked upon as old racing cars which might be recycled once again into something for the track rather than as an investment.... the latter sentiment being among the surest of signs that the Apocalypse is certainly upon us....


I still think Don hit the nail on the head; old racing cars which were no longer competitive had their lives extended in this way. After all we wouldn't want to see cars confined to museums to rot or condemned to the crusher just because they were no longer competitive!

:wave:

#49 fines

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 08:13

Overton "Bunny" Phillips put a Miller V8 engine (from the Miller FWD) into a Bugatti 35 chassis for his "Phillips Special", ca. 1938.

Ceterum censeo, yep to Don and Steve!

#50 ianselva

ianselva
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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:51

Surely this leads back to the ' HMSA (Historic Modsports and Saloon Association) to allow any engine into Historics!' topic.