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AJ Foyt's 1967 Indy winner


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#1 Tmeranda

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 01:16

Does anyone know what ever became of AJ Foyt's 1967 Indy winning Coyote? And can anyone tell me if it was built from scrach or was it a modified Lotus 38?

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#2 Gerr

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 04:21

Similar to and based on the design of the Lotus 38, but built in the USA by Foyt, Kuzma and Lesovsky.

It's in the IMS museum.

#3 Andy Glaess

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 18:01

I'm not at home at the moment, but I'm pretty certain that a Sports Illustrated magazine from May of 1980, with Foyt on the cover, has a feature on Foyt that shows a picture of the car in one of his garages. Covered in dust!
Now thats over a quarter of a century ago, so I wouldn't be suprised if Foyt has it in some warehouse or car dealership now.

#4 red stick

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 18:18

IMS museum.

http://www.geocities...500/museum.html

#5 MPea3

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 18:29

Gary Kite, father of Jimmy Kite and former mechanic for both the Unsers and Johncock, told me back in the early 90's that a copy of that car existed.

#6 MPea3

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 18:34

Ignore that.... it was the '77 car Kite told me about, not the '67.







try to remember... engage brain FIRST, engage brain FIRST...

#7 A E Anderson

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 22:09

Originally posted by Andy Glaess
I'm not at home at the moment, but I'm pretty certain that a Sports Illustrated magazine from May of 1980, with Foyt on the cover, has a feature on Foyt that shows a picture of the car in one of his garages. Covered in dust!
Now thats over a quarter of a century ago, so I wouldn't be suprised if Foyt has it in some warehouse or car dealership now.


AJ Foyt's 1961, 1964, 1967 and 1977 Indianapolis 500-winning cars are all in the Hall of Fame Museum at Indianapolis Motor Speedway. The 61, 67 and 77 cars are restored, the 1964 Trevis Watson copy roadster is displayed just as it finished the last race of the season at Phoenix in 1964.

Art

#8 philippe charuest

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 22:50

Originally posted by Gerr
Similar to and based on the design of the Lotus 38, but built in the USA by Foyt, Kuzma and Lesovsky.

It's in the IMS museum.

thats the kind of information i like to see , its always a pain to find what was exactly that indy "whatever special " and who did build it .it goes back to the earlier day like the "premier " who were plain copy of peugeot, its practically a conspiracy of silence ;) is there a book a site with those information, does the r. popely or j.fox book give that kind of info

#9 A E Anderson

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 12:09

Originally posted by philippe charuest
thats the kind of information i like to see , its always a pain to find what was exactly that indy "whatever special " and who did build it .it goes back to the earlier day like the "premier " who were plain copy of peugeot, its practically a conspiracy of silence ;) is there a book a site with those information, does the r. popely or j.fox book give that kind of info


Jack Fox's book on the Indianapolis 500 gives photo's of each car in the field of every 500 Mile Race from 1911 through 1967, in their order of finish. A chart for each year gives the cars' starting positions, finishing position, number of laps completed, and the engine & chassis. The book also gives the car's color, which is helpful as the pictures are all the "official" black & white qualification portraits of the cars, which except for a few years, were taken in the pits immediately after the car completed its qualification run.

It's been a few months since I've looked through that book (mine is the first edition, which covers only through 1966), but I believe Fox, then a newspaper sports reporter (Indianapolis Star & News) used records from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and he did use the services of the Photographic Shop at the Speedway, which is a tremendous repository of pictures of cars, events and personalities of the race down through the years.

I seem to recall that Jack Fox does list Dario Resta's 1916 winner as a Premier. Al Bloemker's (Bloemker was the Speedway's press officer/agent for many years beginning with the purchase of the Speedway by Tony Hulman in 1945, until his retirement in the early 70's) book on the Indianapolis 500 is where I believe I first read an account of the building of reproduction Peugeot's by Carl Fisher's Premier Automobile Company. Fisher apparently had the Speedway purchase several of them to ensure a full field for 1916, as without European cars in those days, the field would likely have been greatly reduced, there being not all that many American motorcar companies interested in fielding race cars--and not all that many privateer car builders yet, either.

Prior to the US entry into WW-I, race cars tended to be named as the product of the companies that built them, just as with European Grand Prix practice. However, with the resumption of racing at Indianapolis (and the newly built board speedways) in 1919, the idea of sponsorships coming from other than an automobile company building the car (most auto companies in the US got away from building race cars by then, choosing other avenues of promoting their products), so the concept of someone not ordinarily associated with the construction of a particular car contributing funds for its purchase/construction got to place his, or his company's name on the car. Hence the term "Special" attached to cars. Gaston Chevrolet's 1920 winner wasn't a product of Monroe, but rather a Frontenac, built by his brothers, but sponsored by Monroe--but identical to Frontenacs also running in that race. The 1923 winner was sponsored by Harry C. Stutz, in promotion of his new automobile company, H.C.S, but was a Miller 122 race car through and through. Of course, with the beginning of the so-called "Junk Formula" in 1930, virtually every car run was called a "Special" of some sort, regardless of who built it--and with only a few exceptions from then on, open wheel race cars in the US were no longer products of any auto manufacturer.

Art

#10 David M. Kane

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 12:14

If you're ever in Indy, the museum is a must. It got a lot of interesting stuff including one of favorites a '54 Mercedes F1 car and Rudy C.'s silverware....

#11 Cris

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 12:17

Originally posted by red stick
IMS museum.

http://www.geocities...500/museum.html


Great site, thanks for posting...didn't realize there were so many early cars still unaccounted for.

Cris

#12 A E Anderson

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 13:02

Originally posted by David M. Kane
If you're ever in Indy, the museum is a must. It got a lot of interesting stuff including one of favorites a '54 Mercedes F1 car and Rudy C.'s silverware....


In November 1995, to mark the 50th Anniversary of Tony Hulman's buying the Speedway (and thus preventing it from becoming a postwar housing development!), the Hulman-George Family hosted a number of gala events at the track, one of which was an open, after-hours tour of the entire museum complex for, get this, Paul Hooft, model car clubs from Indiana!

Many of the cars on display in the various galleries had their hoods opened, and modelers were allowed behind the velvet ropes to photograph them to their heart's content. But, the real highlight was opening the basement storage garage, where many cars stand when not on public display, including a number of former Pace Cars. Included there that evening were many cars from Tony Hulman's former "Hulman Old Wheels" museum in Terre Haute (most antique car enthusiasts in the US are completely unaware that Anton Hulman Jr. was an early antique car collector, and one of the founding members of Antique Automobile Club of America in 1935).

Best of all, admission to this event, which was by informal invitation, was completely free (ordinarily a special opening, after hours such as this costs several thousand dollars!), and what a great evening it was! Too bad I didn't have a digital camera back then!

Art

#13 David M. Kane

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 13:44

Art:

You lucky devil! I've been trying to get into that basement for years. The Collection has grown to the point where there are now several warehouses off-site.

The basement is legendary here in Indy.

#14 philippe charuest

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 18:44

and the book of John Devaney published in 1976 is it good ,btw i just received yesterday "500 miles to go" by bloemker :)

#15 A E Anderson

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 19:48

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Art:

You lucky devil! I've been trying to get into that basement for years. The Collection has grown to the point where there are now several warehouses off-site.

The basement is legendary here in Indy.


David,

There were several warehouses, off-site, years ago. I'm not at all sure that Mari George and her children have quite the same passion for historic cars as Tony Hulman did, but I could well be wrong.

Another "must stop" for me back in the 1970's, on any trip to the Speedway mid-week was the restoration shop, where I used to show off my latest model creations to Bill Spoerle and Barney Wimmer.

On several occasions, they both took me to the auxilliary building, next door, where I got to scope through the piles and shelves full of old race car parts they'd collected over the years. Neat stuff there as well!

Art

#16 David M. Kane

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 21:14

I may be mistakened, but I was told they got at least one new facility by a gentleman who maintains another collection. Tony is still buying stuff according to my friend.

#17 Vicuna

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 21:20

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Art:

You lucky devil! I've been trying to get into that basement for years. The Collection has grown to the point where there are now several warehouses off-site.

The basement is legendary here in Indy.


I've done the basement.

A fellow Kiwi was running it a few years ago. A lady at the front desk recognised that I was not 'round here parts' and when I said NZer she organised for me to meet this guy.

As happens with Kiwis, we needed only a few moments to figure we knew the same people.

Did I want to go to the basement?

All the stuff I thought I should have be seeing upstairs. Now that's a haircut or two ago...what year did Villeneuve win the 500?

#18 MichaelP

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 04:40

Originally posted by A E Anderson


AJ Foyt's 1961, 1964, 1967 and 1977 Indianapolis 500-winning cars are all in the Hall of Fame Museum at Indianapolis Motor Speedway. The 61, 67 and 77 cars are restored, the 1964 Trevis Watson copy roadster is displayed just as it finished the last race of the season at Phoenix in 1964.

Art

IMS has two 1977 winning cars. I got to go down in the basement back in 95 when I saw the second 77 car. I asked our guide, whom I believe was Terry Gunter, about it and his reply was to the effect that they simply don't know which car won the race and that the Speedway bought the second one from Foyt to insure they had the winning car. They believe that the one on the museum floor is the winning tub, but that parts of the true winning car are on both cars.

The 61 winner is a pretty poor restoration, the hood is totally different, and I think the nose is too. The red is totally wrong IMO. Should be a bright non-metallic red, unlike the metallic burgundy that currently adorns it.

But I could go on and on about inaccuracies of winners in the IMS museum (1973 is the worst offender - it's a 74 tub!).

I've also been fortunate enough to see Jim Clark's 1965 Lotus 38 at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. It is in as-it-last-raced condition.

I've yet to go the Penske museum in Phoenix, but Chuck Sprague (winning Crew Chief 1985) has been involved with the restorations and told me most of the Penske Indy winners have every part that was on them when they won the 500. Most all of them still run (1991 winner is one exception). The 1972 winner is Gary B's 1972 car restored to Donohue's paint scheme (Penske tried to get the actual winner back from IMS to no avail - rumor has it Roger offered the speedway replicas of all his Indy winners in exchange for the 72 car). The 79 winner is a replica as the original was destroyed in an accident. The 81 winner is also a replica as Bobby Unser kept the winner for himself. I had heard it was not in great shape, and I also heard Bobby may have sold it, but I have not confirmed that.

#19 A E Anderson

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 08:37

Originally posted by MichaelP

IMS has two 1977 winning cars. I got to go down in the basement back in 95 when I saw the second 77 car. I asked our guide, whom I believe was Terry Gunter, about it and his reply was to the effect that they simply don't know which car won the race and that the Speedway bought the second one from Foyt to insure they had the winning car. They believe that the one on the museum floor is the winning tub, but that parts of the true winning car are on both cars.

The 61 winner is a pretty poor restoration, the hood is totally different, and I think the nose is too. The red is totally wrong IMO. Should be a bright non-metallic red, unlike the metallic burgundy that currently adorns it.

But I could go on and on about inaccuracies of winners in the IMS museum (1973 is the worst offender - it's a 74 tub!).

I've also been fortunate enough to see Jim Clark's 1965 Lotus 38 at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. It is in as-it-last-raced condition.

I've yet to go the Penske museum in Phoenix, but Chuck Sprague (winning Crew Chief 1985) has been involved with the restorations and told me most of the Penske Indy winners have every part that was on them when they won the 500. Most all of them still run (1991 winner is one exception). The 1972 winner is Gary B's 1972 car restored to Donohue's paint scheme (Penske tried to get the actual winner back from IMS to no avail - rumor has it Roger offered the speedway replicas of all his Indy winners in exchange for the 72 car). The 79 winner is a replica as the original was destroyed in an accident. The 81 winner is also a replica as Bobby Unser kept the winner for himself. I had heard it was not in great shape, and I also heard Bobby may have sold it, but I have not confirmed that.


I would agree with you on the inaccuracies of many of the restorations in the Speedway Museum. Of course, it might be wise to temper our criticisms by realizing that many of those cars came into the possession of the museum years, even decades after their victories, not to mention a lot of them having gone through numerous owners, and perhaps even more numerous racing wars.

For example, I believe Foyt's 1961 winner was also his ride in 1962, or at least his backup car--in any event, his 1962 car had the hood with open cooling scoop as is on the Museum's car today. At the time of restoration, probably the original hood could no longer be found, or worse, nobody could be located to replicate the much closer-fitting panel with the clearance bubble for the exhaust cam housing--whatever. The Bill Vukovich KK500A is another example of this: When the car was obtained by the then fledgling IMS Museum, it was pretty much as run in 1954, with the left side of the hood extended, along with the left engine bay side panel, to enclose the intake ram tubes on the Hilborn FI system. But, the car was then painted (perhaps by the museum, or perhaps by Howard Keck, who knows today?) in the dark gray color as the 1953 winning car, instead of the light grey of 1954. While some think it rather shabby, the 1964 Sheraton-Thompson winning car, displayed as it has been since what, 1965-66, just as it finished the 1964 season, paint chips and all is an excellent example of provenance, even though it was modified slightly from it's Indianapolis appearance for the mile-track wars of that year's "Championship Trail". Even with all the wear and tear, however, it stands as an excellent example of the paintwork of Dean Jeffries, the Southern California custom car builder and painter, who did not only that paint scheme, but the very similar ones on the Agajanian roadster of Parnelli Jones, for 1961, 1962 and 1963.

I would submit that out there in the antique race car field, relatively few old racecars actually are as built, or stand as they did when they achieved their particular ultimate fame. Crash damage got repaired, parts were changed out for something considered to be better, and in many, many instances, the original parts simply were unavailable (either scrapped, or just plain "whereabouts unknown" at the time of their original restorations. 30, 40, 50 years ago and beyond, there simply wasn't the interest out there in finding all the original parts, or worse, among those who might have had them stashed away, in digging them out, to figure out just which car those pieces might have belonged. Old race cars weren't worth much on the collector market either--I can still remember attending several "Hoosier Auto Show & Swap Meet" events in the infield of the Speedway, and seeing old race cars for sale for mere peanuts! The late Bill Goodwin, of Frankfort Indiana, once confided in me that of all the valuable stuff in the museum behind his funeral home, the two Indianapolis cars and the Miller V8 (one of only three built, and the one used by Ford when they were laying out their own 4-cam cylinder heads, BTW) cost him no more than a coupld of thousand dollars apiece.

It's only been within the past 20 years or so, since the likes of the late Chuck Davis, Buck Boudamin and Dave Uhlein have come along with a sincere interest in accurate presentations of historic race cars from decades past. Uhlein, in recreating DePaolo's 1925 Indianapolis winning Duesenberg, at least had access to a number of authentic Duesenberg patterns, including the cast-iron forms that were made for forming the aluminum frame rails. Davis was able, by reason of his substantial fortune from the asphalt paving business, to afford to dig out old Miller parts and even fairly complete cars, and have some of the finest craftsmen restore them, even recreate missing parts when required.

Oh well, the Speedway Museum is still a most fascinating place.

Art

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#20 David M. Kane

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 13:35

Chuck Spargue started as Ted Wenz FF mechanic when he was running a Meryln. Ted then moved to Europe and drove for Lola. So, Chuck went work for Tom Pumpelly running Marches in FAtlantic.
After that he went to work for Penske.

#21 Updraught

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 14:58

David - I believe you are thinking of Bob Sprow.

#22 David M. Kane

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 15:47

Updraught:

You are absolutely correct! Brain f@#t...

#23 fines

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 22:04

Simply a phantastic movie:

1967 Indy 500

:smoking:

#24 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 22:48

I agree with David M Kane that a visit to the IMS Museum is well worth it. It was some time ago that I visited the Museum [ 1981 ]

#25 aaron

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 06:00

Yes great museum. I saw the basement in 2006, apparently a rare privelege. Credit to them as they sent Mario's Hawke to Laguna Seca this year. A1

#26 Buford

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 07:17

I went to the Foyt stuff auction at Indy one year - forget when now. That day TG bought the supposed 1977 winner. However also that day Robin Miller told me Foyt had told him it wasn't really the car - the real one had been wrecked.

#27 RA Historian

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 16:42

Originally posted by Buford
That day TG bought the supposed 1977 winner. However also that day Robin Miller told me Foyt had told him it wasn't really the car - the real one had been wrecked.

Tony being duped? Or buying something to put in the museum to dupe the viewers? Can't be! :p

If the latter, not the first time. As has been stated elsewhere on this forum, the Lotus 29 in the IMS Museum, contrary to the placard placed in front of it, is NOT the Clark car from 1963.

Tom

#28 red stick

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 21:51

Originally posted by RA Historian
Tony being duped? Or buying something to put in the museum to dupe the viewers? Can't be! :p

If the latter, not the first time. As has been stated elsewhere on this forum, the Lotus 29 in the IMS Museum, contrary to the placard placed in front of it, is NOT the Clark car from 1963.

Tom


It's a beautiful car, and I'm glad there's a representative car from the era so visitors can have some idea of what A.J. was driving at the time. Same for Clark. Just be accurate about what you're displaying. If it won the race, say so. If it's a copy, say so. If it competed further that season, and it's roughly 50% original, say so. The way several of the cars are displayed now one can't help but feel "duped," and it's completely unnecessary.