Jump to content


Photo

Danes


  • Please log in to reply
65 replies to this topic

#1 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,624 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 08 June 2006 - 18:30

I thought it would be nice with another flavour here at TNF. Danmark had the Roskilde Ring track ,
now closed,but we have 3 others namely Jyllands Ringen , Ring Djursland and nearly brand new the Padborg Park. Most propably know that all the great ones raced at Roskilde Ring but in the 60es + many well known internationals come to the 2 first named. Not too much has been written on danish motorsport , and all in Danish , so it would be really nice to pick up all you got on these tracks, races and the Danish drivers of which quite a few also raced outside Danmark. I dont expept too much , pictures would be great , but any info is most welcome. Perhaps one of you remember Roy Pierpoint in his Falcon over here or the like.
I have made a list of some of the most known ,might however have omitted a some :

Tom Belsø , Erik Høyer , Ole Vejlund , Jørgen Ellekær , Jan Heggov , Hartvig Conradsen , Kurt Thiim ,

Jens Chr. Legarth , Joerges Bagger , Kris Nissen , John Nielsen , Henrik Spellerberg , Thorkild Thyrring.

Regards Bjørn Kjer (the transporter nut)

Advertisement

#2 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • Member

  • 5,119 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 09 June 2006 - 05:46

erhhhhhh, what is it that you are asking?

Danish drivers who raced at the Danish tracks?
In a specific period?

In your list I could miss Preben Kristoffersen, e.g. (the Mazda RX-7 guy. Think he was sponsored by Kjeldsen cookies. Uhmmmm scrumptuous)

#3 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,624 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 09 June 2006 - 06:11

Hi , it seems I am not clear in my explanation. I am searching for info and pics on Danish drivers abroad and from the Danish tracks. Especially up to the 90s.

Ex : Erik Høyer drove his Mini Cooper in Britain for a couple of races. Tom Belsø lived in Britain and did the F5000, many Danes went to international F3 races.....and perhaps some readers went to Denmark in those days ..and perhaps took some pictures ? Perhaps some had a Danish driver as hero and collect info he will share ? Hopefully that says enough?

Regards Bjørn

PS. In the Transporter thread there are on page 3 some nice pictures of Danish Teams and on the Supply & Sponsor vehicles thread is is good one of Tom Belsø Lola and transporter. That kind too!

#4 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • Member

  • 5,119 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 09 June 2006 - 06:40

When we (the family) moved house in 1971 we borrowed Tom Belsoe transporter through a friends friend. I was 6 at the time. I remember it as being grey and big with lots of stickers. We (the kids) were allowed to sit in the front when we drove the 1.5 km we moved. Unfortunately my parents weren't into racing at all and thus didn't see the need for pictures.

I get the question now. In that case delete Kristoffersen and add Henrik Larsen.

#5 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 09 June 2006 - 06:59

Jesper Willumsen??

:cool:

#6 kevthedrummer

kevthedrummer
  • Member

  • 479 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 09 June 2006 - 09:21

Although perhaps a bit recent I was often impressed by Jason Watt. Anyone know what he's up to now? Last I heard he was in touring cars.

#7 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • Member

  • 5,119 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 09 June 2006 - 10:21

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
Jesper Willumsen??

:cool:


Don't think he ventured outside Denmark much. Maybe I'm mistaken though. He was pretty dominant here in his time though.

#8 Jesper O. Hansen

Jesper O. Hansen
  • Member

  • 579 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 09 June 2006 - 17:53

Indeed Jesper Villumsen raced abroad. Back in the late 1970's and for the next decade he was abroad many times during his Formula Ford career. Besides winning national titles along the way, he also took in a lot of EFDA Euro Series races in both F1600 and F2000. One year, ca. 1980, he was at the FFord Festival at Brands Hatch and a picture of his white PRS with the national flag, Dannebrog, on the nose piece was taken. Only a few years ago Jesper was back at Brands, only to discover that the picture was now adorning a piece of wall at the track.
In 1982 he was among those running Ayrton Senna closest in the EFDA F2000 series and five years on he instigated the transition from gokart to formula racer for one Tom Kristensen.

Best regards
Jesper

#9 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • Member

  • 5,119 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 09 June 2006 - 18:24

I stand thoroughly corrected. :lol:

#10 wibblywobbly

wibblywobbly
  • Member

  • 287 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 10 June 2006 - 02:48

Bjorn, you should contact my partner, Jesper Hvid, at http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk/phpBB2/ . He's got a significant amount of data compiled about the history of Danish Motorsport. I'm sure he'd be glad to help you.

#11 Vicuna

Vicuna
  • Member

  • 1,588 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 10 June 2006 - 18:43

With the greatestof respect, Denmark must now be the worst performed European nation in tems of motorsport contribution.

What's the excuse?

#12 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,624 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 10 June 2006 - 19:27

To the "unknowing". Danmark is one of the richest contries in the world , but money is not spend on motorsport , so most of the Danish talents nearly allways lacked money!

Regards Bjørn

PS . We have one of the most ecxiting touring car championships ever!

#13 Vicuna

Vicuna
  • Member

  • 1,588 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 10 June 2006 - 22:39

Are you saying a young Senna or Alonso would have never made it had they born Danish?

Magnussan could have made - he just lacked personal discipline. I suspect that was not at all connected with being born in Denmark.

#14 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 11 June 2006 - 09:12

Originally posted by Vicuna
With the greatestof respect, Denmark must now be the worst performed European nation in tems of motorsport contribution.

What's the excuse?


How do you define worst performed??

John Nielsen - Won European Super Vee title 3 times, won German F3 Championship, placed second in European F3 championship, won Macau F3, Won races in F3000, Won Le Mans.

Kurt Thim - Won German F3 championship, Won DTM championship

Kris Nissen - Won German F3 championship

Tom Kristensen - Won German F3 championshp, Won Japanese F3 championship, Won races in F3000, won races in BTCC, won (is winning) races in DTM, have won Le Mans 7 times.

Nicolas Kiesa - Won races in British F3, won Monaco F3000 race, have been a F1 driver

Jason Watt - Won the FF festival, won races in F3000, were a F1 prospect.

Jan Magnusson - Won FF festival, won races in ITC, won the British F3 championship, was a F1 driver.

These drivers have performed and won, based on talent since 1980, I am sure that this is better than a lot of European, or any country in the world. There are only 5 million Danes, so you can not expect much better than this.

:cool:

#15 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 11 June 2006 - 10:48

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
These drivers have performed and won, based on talent since 1980

What about since 2000?
(vicuna's post did use the word "now")

#16 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 11 June 2006 - 16:26

Originally posted by David McKinney

What about since 2000?
(vicuna's post did use the word "now")


We are in the nostalgia forum.

:cool:

But since 2000

Tom Kristesen won Le Mans 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 as well as multiple ALMS and DTM race wins.

Nicolas Kiesa won races in British F3, raced in German F3 and F3000, took win at Monaco F3000 in 2003, after which he switched to F1 for Minardi.

Ronnie Bremer second in FF Festival 2002, sixth in British F3 2003, 2004 won the BBS Rising Star award and placed 5th in Toyota Atlantic, 2005 placed second in Rockie of the year behind Timo Glock in Champcar.

Jan Magnusson may no longer be in F1, but he won the GT category on Le Mans 2005, won the GTS category on Le Mans 2004.

#17 wibblywobbly

wibblywobbly
  • Member

  • 287 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 11 June 2006 - 17:35

Jan also won on July 9, 2000, during the ALMS trip to the Nurburgring. He took that brutish Panoz and beat the pants off the mighty Audis, in stunning fashion, on a very wet course.

#18 Vicuna

Vicuna
  • Member

  • 1,588 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 12 June 2006 - 18:51

Danes have achieved more in motor racing than Icelanders. Add Norway as well if circuit racing only is included.

I'm not having a go here - I just can't understand why a wealthy country attached to Germany have produced so few topline racing drivers.

And indeed not a single Grand Prix driver of any inherent quality.

Is this bad luck or is there some logical reason?

#19 Bonde

Bonde
  • Member

  • 959 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 12 June 2006 - 19:45

My 2 Danish Kroners worth:

Motor racing has always been fairly low-key in Denmark because (private vehicle) motoring in general has always been regarded as an unecessary, anti-social, dangerous and polluting mode of travel, thus burdened with taxes and frowned upon due to its appearance of only being for the rich folks who could not conceivably have become rich in ways legal or ethical. Motoring has always been politically incorrect in Denmark - and still is. Strangely, Danes all want their own cars, in spite of having to pay through the nose for three when they get one due to our World record high taxes on cars.

A small domestic market and political indifference as well as due to the lucrative tax object that motor cars are has killed any and all attempts at an indegenous car industry in Denmark - countries not much larger than Denmark have managed it for a while.

It must also be borne in mind, that well into the 1950s, Denmark was still very much an agricultural rather than an industrial nation.

Without a motor industry of sorts, motor racing tends never to take off in a big way, and if driving for transport is regarded as a nuisance, racing the cars is considered even more so.

Thus, we have never had any proper race tracks in Denmark. Our first paved track came in the mid 50s, and then only the diminutive Roskilde Ring. The three tracks that followed are all in Jutland, and all Mickey-Mousey, too. There has been no paved track on Zealand, isle of capitol Copenhagen, follwing the closure (due to noise complaints) of Roskilde Ring in 1968!

Thus, few Danes have been raised in an environment conducive to motor racing stardom.

Advertisement

#20 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 13 June 2006 - 05:25

We should add Jens Winterh Sr. to the drivers. He did the Group C2 World Championship one or two years with that funky BMW engined contraption. He took 10th at Le Mans one year.

Vicuna, despite that small size of Denmark. Sweden have not really produced anything worthwhile in the past 25 years either. There are double the number of Swedes, and they have a domestic car industry.

:cool:

#21 Tomas Karlsson

Tomas Karlsson
  • Member

  • 640 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 13 June 2006 - 07:10

Vicuna, despite that small size of Denmark. Sweden have not really produced anything worthwhile in the past 25 years either. There are double the number of Swedes, and they have a domestic car industry.


??? I don't understand ...??
Sweden has produced a lot of good drivers during the past 25 years. But there are very little interest in formula car racing. It's all about touring cars. So all the young guys who try to find a budget in Sweden, all end up in STCC.
You can't judge a coutnry's motor racing scene from how many F1 drivers they have got. There is no logic in that statistic.
I remember discussing with the members of a Swedish F3 team in 1978, who of the present hot-shots that would make it into F1. They was pretty sure of the F3-driver Chico Serra as being the next star. When I suggested Keke Rosberg, they all laughed. And if Keke hadn't made it into F1, Finland might never have had any F1 drivers.

Denmark had a legistlation agaist road races, so their racing after WWII was on small oval tracks. Raised taxes halted racing for several years before Roskilde was built. In Finland and Sweden on the other hand, there were a lot of racing on different road tracks... and on ice. So Denmark has always been behind it's Nordic neighbours. But they have had several top-line drivers in the past decades. Try looking at Le Mans winners...
Norway has always had a problem with it's geography, but in the thirties the best Nordic driver was a Norwegian. And you never know where the next star will show up.

#22 doc knutsen

doc knutsen
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 13 June 2006 - 07:13

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
We should add Jens Winterh Sr. to the drivers. He did the Group C2 World Championship one or two years with that funky BMW engined contraption. He took 10th at Le Mans one year.

Vicuna, despite that small size of Denmark. Sweden have not really produced anything worthwhile in the past 25 years either. There are double the number of Swedes, and they have a domestic car industry.


As Scandinavian countries go, Denmark has done remarkably well in motor racing. Why anyone would see them as being the poorest in Europe is totally beyond me....how many Le Mans victories to Denmark, as compared to Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Norway and the Baltic states, all put together? In addition to Tom and SuperJohn, a number of Danes have made their mark in International motor racing, in various categories...and the lack of a Formula One driver of success does not have to do with lack of talent. Denmark has a population of about 5 million, less than a tenth of Germany, and no domestic car industry to stimulate and support emerging talent.
I am off to Le Mans in a couple of days, there is always a huge colony of proud and enthusiastic Danes at that circuit....and excellent company they are, too. Forza Tom K.!

#23 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 13 June 2006 - 07:36

Originally posted by doc knutsen


As Scandinavian countries go, Denmark has done remarkably well in motor racing. Why anyone would see them as being the poorest in Europe is totally beyond me....how many Le Mans victories to Denmark, as compared to Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Norway and the Baltic states, all put together? In addition to Tom and SuperJohn, a number of Danes have made their mark in International motor racing, in various categories...and the lack of a Formula One driver of success does not have to do with lack of talent. Denmark has a population of about 5 million, less than a tenth of Germany, and no domestic car industry to stimulate and support emerging talent.
I am off to Le Mans in a couple of days, there is always a huge colony of proud and enthusiastic Danes at that circuit....and excellent company they are, too. Forza Tom K.!


I fully agree with both you and Thomas Karlsson, it is Vicuna, who seem intent on belittleing the relatively strong showing by Danish drivers the past 25 years. I would never only base "success" for a country on number of f1 drivers, there are too few seats available for that to be meaningfull, but even at that Denmark have had 2 F1 drivers the past 25 years.

Sweden 1
Norway 0
Finland 4
Australia 2
Belgium 3
Canada 1

So it does seem that Vicuna is not really there.

:cool:

#24 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,624 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 13 June 2006 - 08:28

:clap: Well, I think this discussion has come to an end . I am sorry I jumped into the "trap" which inflicts many thread....if you go back to my post , I noted the unknowing....!! This seems to have been stated now. So , allthough I think there should be room for other things,could we please come back to the intensions of this tread?? Regards Bjørn

PS and thanks to those naming the FACTS!

:clap:

#25 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 13 June 2006 - 08:47

As I wrote earlier:

Jens Winter (Sr.)
Svend Hansen - 1987 Europea FFord Champion
Jesper Andersen - 188 Danish and Duth F2000 champion.

:cool:

#26 Vicuna

Vicuna
  • Member

  • 1,588 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 13 June 2006 - 10:46

Have I made fun of anyones name?

I've heard Danes were touchy - belittling?? Who's belittling.

I merely ask a question - where are the Danish drivers what are household names in households that know their motor racing?

If I were Danish, I'd be pretty embarrassed about the brevity of such a list - all things considered.

My initial post on the subject commenced with the words "with the greatest of respect".

Doc says Denmark has done "remarkably well".

Well I'm convinced....

#27 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • Member

  • 5,119 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 13 June 2006 - 10:52

Originally posted by doc knutsen

...I am off to Le Mans in a couple of days, there is always a huge colony of proud and enthusiastic Danes at that circuit....and excellent company they are, too. Forza Tom K.!



me too :clap:

#28 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 13 June 2006 - 10:59

Originally posted by Vicuna
Have I made fun of anyones name? - Not where I have seen it.

I've heard Danes were touchy - belittling?? Who's belittling. - You are

I merely ask a question - where are the Danish drivers what are household names in households that know their motor racing? - Which is what the thread was about, and you wanted to make it into something else.

If I were Danish, I'd be pretty embarrassed about the brevity of such a list - all things considered. - Thare you go belittleing again.

My initial post on the subject commenced with the words "with the greatest of respect". - Right a "grand father clause"

Doc says Denmark has done "remarkably well". - The Danes agree

Well I'm convinced.... - Good.


:cool:

#29 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 13 June 2006 - 11:00

Originally posted by jcbc3



me too :clap:


Me three.

I have a potential beer date at Maison Blanche.

:cool:

#30 Vicuna

Vicuna
  • Member

  • 1,588 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 13 June 2006 - 11:07

Tosser

#31 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,624 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 13 June 2006 - 11:52

What does that word mean?

#32 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 13 June 2006 - 12:12

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
What does that word mean?


That Vicuna does not like me.

:cool:

#33 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,624 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 13 June 2006 - 12:21

:clap: Is that why he went to "Headlines you wished youd seen" to get rid of his ...................

#34 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 13 June 2006 - 12:26

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
:clap: Is that why he went to "Headlines you wished youd seen" to get rid of his ...................


Not sure, I have not erad that thread. I did edit my offending namechange.

:cool:

#35 Bonde

Bonde
  • Member

  • 959 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 13 June 2006 - 14:57

Vicuna,

I don't expect you to agree, but it does seem to me that you are using some circular "heads I win, tails you loose" logic in your arguments. Some of us have accepted that Danish drivers (except, perhaps Tom Kristensen) are, or have rarely been, household names, and we have attempted to speculate as to why that might be and posted our opinions on that. However, you seem to disregard our explanations involving, among other things, lack of a domestic motor industry and anti-motor racing public sentiment and legislation, compared with nations of similar population size and levels of affluence. In spite of those hurdles, some Danish drivers have actually managed to be succesful internationally, albeit mostly outside F1 (there are only ca. 22 seats these days), as others have pointed out.

Either way, you don't seem to want to agree with either position. So what is the point you are trying to make? What exactly do you expect of Denmark, motor racing-wise? :confused:

#36 doc knutsen

doc knutsen
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 13 June 2006 - 17:01

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


Me three.

I have a potential beer date at Maison Blanche.

:cool:


We'll be at Camping Beausejour....big bright yellow ex-tourist coach turned racing team transporter turned camper for a bunch of Norwegian motor racing nut cases....we have a big awning and a Viking style long table. Rear third of bus is bright red crossed by blue on white, ie the Norwegian flag colours. Should be pretty hard to miss...anyone who wants to call in and say hello will be made welcome in the time-honoured Nordic way (hint: This involves pints of beer..)

#37 Vicuna

Vicuna
  • Member

  • 1,588 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 13 June 2006 - 20:05

1. Bonde - I am not disregarding anything - I have long wondered about a subject raised by others. Of course it is logical that a motor industry is immensly useful in cultivating talent.

2. Having said that, Finland doesn't have a motor industry that I'm aware of.

3. Rightly or wrongly, from this distance, I think Denmark and then think other countries with an off centre cross on their flag. In comparison, Denmark has not had a huge amount to cheer about.

4. This is not an insult but a fact. Just as my country has had a real lean spell between about Mike Thackwell and Scott Dixon. Sad but true - unless touring cars are taken into account.

5. When I use the words 'with all due respect', I mean it. These words are regularly used by a silver headed blazer wearer who's first letter of the christian name we know him as is the same as the first letter of his surname. He may not exhibit the same degree of sincerity as me.

6. It have come to your attention that the world cup of football is on. If a nation treats qualifying every four years as a victory but rarely makes it beyond the first round then they will probably go on achieving precisely that. If more is demanded, who knows what might be achieved.

7. If Doc's "remarkably well" view is that of most Danish motorsport fans, then the historic level of achievement will not only be tolerated but indeed celebrated.

8. Do not think I am anti - Danish.

9. I have a dream of owning a Harlequin Great Dane.

10. I am guilty of fantacising over Brigitte Neilson

11. It is breakfast time in NZ. I wish I had some Danish in the house.

12. Forza Tom

13. Lighten up

14. Have a Tuborg for me

#38 doc knutsen

doc knutsen
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 13 June 2006 - 21:50

Originally posted by Vicuna
[
7. If Doc's "remarkably well" view is that of most Danish motorsport fans, then the historic level of achievement will not only be tolerated but indeed celebrated.

[/B]


From a native English speaker, making fun of a non-native English speaker's use of English is bad form at the best of times. Even more so when the grammar was correct in the first place.

Incidentally, whatever gave you the idea that I am Danish?

#39 Bonde

Bonde
  • Member

  • 959 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 13 June 2006 - 22:58

Vicuna,

Methinks we may simply be misunderstanding each other.

In order to hopefully clear up any confusion, I'll take the liberty of addressing each of your points:

"1. Bonde - I am not disregarding anything - I have long wondered about a subject raised by others. Of course it is logical that a motor industry is immensly useful in cultivating talent."

In that case I'm wondering why you seem surprised that few, if any Danes, have become household names internationally. The no-motor industry condition is only one aspect of lack of societal support for activities conducive to motor racing stardom.

"2. Having said that, Finland doesn't have a motor industry that I'm aware of."

True - motor industrial base is not the only prerequisite, nor perhaps the most important one. Finland has been particularly well suited to breeding rally drivers, and Finland, for whatever reasons, has some pretty large industrial enterprises, which, unlike their generally smaller Danish counterparts, have provided worthwhile support for promising motor racing talents. IIRC, Finland produced few internationally renown drivers prior to 1968 and the introduction of overt sponsorship - which, of course, applies to other small countries as well.

"3. Rightly or wrongly, from this distance, I think Denmark and then think other countries with an off centre cross on their flag. In comparison, Denmark has not had a huge amount to cheer about."

Off-hand, I suppose those would be the Scandinavian countries. Denmark, Norway and Finland each have populations of similar size (ca. 5 million), Sweden (9 million), I have not included Iceland and the Faeroes. Finland appears to be the odd one out (see above), Sweden has a motor industry and has produced some World Class drivers, Norway fewer, methinks, than even Denmark - in spite of a less anti-motoring society (might have something to do with the widely differing geographies of the countries). Norway is loaded with oil money and should be able to back emerging talent better than Denmark nowadays. Apart from rallying, road racing in the old sense has never been allowed in most, if not all, Scandinavian countries, but I'll grant you, that didn't deter the British - they had other seeds, though. So whether there's a special Scandinavian set of circumstances or not, I can only speculate.

"4. This is not an insult but a fact. Just as my country has had a real lean spell between about Mike Thackwell and Scott Dixon. Sad but true - unless touring cars are taken into account."

No offense taken - I'm just not sure I understood your point, though. To an extent, I think success breeds success - for instance, interest in and sponsorship for motor racing did increase with Magnussen and Kristensen-effects - Kiesa being but one (of admittedly too few) beneficiaries, IMO.

"5. When I use the words 'with all due respect', I mean it. These words are regularly used by a silver headed blazer wearer who's first letter of the christian name we know him as is the same as the first letter of his surname. He may not exhibit the same degree of sincerity as me."

I agree - and as I said, no offense taken.

"6. It [may] have come to your attention that the world cup of football is on. If a nation treats qualifying every four years as a victory but rarely makes it beyond the first round then they will probably go on achieving precisely that. If more is demanded, who knows what might be achieved."

What World Cup?;) Seriously - I agree. I think it works both ways - expectations tend to become self-fulfilling prophecies.

"7. If Doc's "remarkably well" view is that of most Danish motorsport fans, then the historic level of achievement will not only be tolerated but indeed celebrated."

With the risk of misrepresenting Doc Knutsen, I think he meant that a few Danish drivers had done well in spite of lack of support from the fans and industry of their country and the direct hostility from Danish legislature. That may call for celebration, but I agree, resting on one's laurels doesn't bring one forward.

"8. Do not think I am anti - Danish."

I don't :D I merely interpret your views as bewilderment as to why Denmark (or rather its motor racing community) has failed to live up to your expectations - naught wrong with that.

"9. I have a dream of owning a Harlequin Great Dane."

Go for it! :cool: BTW, I always wondered whether Great Danes (the breed of dogs ;)) actually stem from Denmark...

"10. I am guilty of fantacising over Brigitte Neilson"

Each to his own...(you do know they're fake, don't you?). No disrespect intended - it's Nielsen, BTW. (FWIW the "sen" ending is Danish and Norwegian, "son" is Swedish)

"11. It is breakfast time in NZ. I wish I had some Danish in the house."

I always wondered why variations of pastry we never see here in Denmark is called 'Danish' in anglophone countries - perhaps the Austrians likewise wonder why we call it "Viennese bread"...

"12. Forza Tom"

:up:

"13. Lighten up"

As I said - no offense taken, I apologize if I came across that way; I think we simply misunderstood each other.

"14. Have a Tuborg for me"

Now THAT was an insult! :p IMO Danish beer, in particular the product comming from Carlsberg (who has long since acquired Tuborg), is wildly over estimated. Fortunately, there are a lot of smaller breweries here comming back "on line", and it certainly has forced Carlsberg to raise improve its act. I'm partial to the darker, richer German, Czech, Belgian, English and Irish beers, ales and stouts. I'm particularly fond of Mai Bok with dark roasted Münchener hops...[I feel the urge for a brew approaching...]

I'm still wondering though: What did you expect of Denmark, motor racing performance-wise - I'd really like to hear your views and theories as to why you had those expectations - and your views as to "what went wrong".

Cheers!

Doc,

I don't think Vicuna meant to ridicule you at all - I think he simply didn't share your opinion that the Danish performance could be characterized as been "remarkably well" done. I'm still trying to figure out why he thinks Denmark has performed poorer than could/should be expected.

I hope you two gentlemen don't take offense at my interjection here...

[And to all: Sorry about all the emoticons..;))

Advertisement

#40 Twin Window

Twin Window
  • Nostalgia Host

  • 6,611 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 13 June 2006 - 23:18

Thanks, Anders, for taking that much time to address those points so carefully. :up:

Secondly...

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer

Thorkild Thyrring.

Is he slightly mad, or did he give me the wrong impression when I've met him on the odd occasion?

Thirdly... Tom Belsø; top bloke.

#41 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,323 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 14 June 2006 - 05:04

I think that Thorkild Thyrring is very very driven. He may not have been endowed with the greatest racing talent, but he decided in a fairly young age that he wanted to become a racedriver, his family who was semi-rich did not approve of this, so he went to Greenland for a year, this was at the time a sort of "klondyke", where spending one year could make you a lot of mony, unless you got to bored and boozed it all up.

Having securred a small "fortune", Thorkild went to England and started racing, he did British F3 and in the early 1980ies he won 2 or 3 European Championships in "Sport 2000".

When saying not the greatest racing talent I do not intend to belittle what he has a cheived, but at a time when very talented drivers were unable to raise any sponsorship, Thorkild was always able to do so. And regardless of what "size" his talent he has managed to live from being a racing driver for close to 30 years, and if "Danish Joe Public" is asked "Who is the second best Danish Racing driver" a large fraction will still answer "Thorkild Thyrring".

No I do not think he is sligtly mad, but I do think he is somewhat odd. I have met him only once, that was a Group C race meet in 1986, -87 or -88. And he does come across as very intense, he was offered a cup of coffee and said "no thanks, I do not do drugs" - This would be a fun remark in most, but he absolutely meant what he said.

He will be at Le Mans again this seaon, doing his 9th Le Mans, and likely produce yet another workmanlike performance. He is a little coy about his age, but most resources have him at being born in 1951, so at 55 years of age, he is still doing what he wanted to do as a kid, and have made a good living from it in +30 years.

If that is slightly mad, then I would like to be slightly mad as well.

:cool:

#42 doc knutsen

doc knutsen
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 14 June 2006 - 07:18

Originally posted by Bonde


"3. Rightly or wrongly, from this distance, I think Denmark and then think other countries with an off centre cross on their flag. In comparison, Denmark has not had a huge amount to cheer about."

Off-hand, I suppose those would be the Scandinavian countries. Denmark, Norway and Finland each have populations of similar size (ca. 5 million), Sweden (9 million), I have not included Iceland and the Faeroes. Finland appears to be the odd one out (see above), Sweden has a motor industry and has produced some World Class drivers, Norway fewer, methinks, than even Denmark - in spite of a less anti-motoring society (might have something to do with the widely differing geographies of the countries). Norway is loaded with oil money and should be able to back emerging talent better than Denmark nowadays. Apart from rallying, road racing in the old sense has never been allowed in most, if not all, Scandinavian countries, but I'll grant you, that didn't deter the British - they had other seeds, though. So whether there's a special Scandinavian set of circumstances or not, I can only speculate.

[/B]


For my money, Denmark and Norway seem to share an anti-motoring bias in our societies, and that very much includes motor sport. In fact, we had a national ban on rallying from 1972 when the then-Secretary of Transport happened to watch a televised rally where one car lost it at a stage finish and crashed into a couple of parked cars...no injuries, but bad publicity. The ban was effective well into the Eighties. And despite several attempts at building a proper motor racing circuit, the opening of Rudskogen in 1990 was our first tarmac circuit. Up until that time, "motor sports" in the media were effectively rallycross, with no other discipline getting a mention (unless there was a dramatic accident).

With the retirement of Martin Schanche, the decline of rallycross internationally, and the emergence of Petter Solberg, rallying is now salongfaehig here....but motor racing still struggles for
any kind of recognition in the media. Granted, formula one is generally reported but is is very much as if other kinds of motor racing do not even exist....there is F1, rallying and rallycross and why would anybody bother with anything else...
So, given the fact that the Danish population is small, and that there is a general scepticism towards motor sports in society - and no domestic oil industry loading society with dollars - I maintain that Denmark has done remarkably well in bringing forward some excellent racing drivers, especially when comparing with its Nordic and Scandinavian neighbours.

Also, given the fact that Denmark is flat as a pancake, how on Earth did you manage to bring "Ørnen fra Herning" forward to win the Tour de France?

Bottom line is, that as a Norwegian, I am bl***y envious with you lot! :lol:

#43 Vicuna

Vicuna
  • Member

  • 1,588 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 14 June 2006 - 08:02

Originally posted by doc knutsen


From a native English speaker, making fun of a non-native English speaker's use of English is bad form at the best of times. Even more so when the grammar was correct in the first place.

Incidentally, whatever gave you the idea that I am Danish?


Please point to where I have made fun of anyones use of English.

In fact I am tremendously impressed by anyone that can speak, and write, another language. I struggle with English.

Given my admiration of multi-lingual people, I'd never "make fun" as you accuse.

And what gave you the idea that I had an idea that you're Danish?

Anyway, I'm off to drink some Elephant beer I bought today.

Maybe some Aass Bock might lighten you up a bit Doc - 'Skal!'

#44 Bonde

Bonde
  • Member

  • 959 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 14 June 2006 - 12:02

Doc,

I wasn't really aware that Norway has the same anti-motoring sentiment as Denmark - are your taxes on cars as high as ours? I do know that Norway has draconic penalties for driving at the speeds circumstances (and not the arbitrary speed limits) allow, but that may be more for conserving oil than safety? But yes, assuming a similar societal relationship to things motoring and racing, Denmark has fared a lot better than our northern brethren. Still, most, if not all, Danes worth thier salt have had to make their names as expatriates - you don't get far by staying on the few Mickey Mouse circuits at home.

As you appear to be extremely knowledgeable: Is there a chance you could open an informative thread on Norwegian single-seater championships and history? I believe you've had Formula Vee and Formula Ford but when, where, who and how much?

Vicuna and Doc,

I maintain that I think you simply misunderstood each other's remarks and intentions. Please kiss, lighten up and make up... :kiss:

Vicuna:

Skål! (I wonder if the å comes out å in HTML...if it doesn't one can replace it with the old form:Skaal!)

#45 doc knutsen

doc knutsen
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 14 June 2006 - 15:38

Originally posted by Bonde
[B]Doc,

I wasn't really aware that Norway has the same anti-motoring sentiment as Denmark - are your taxes on cars as high as ours?
I do know that Norway has draconic penalties for driving at the speeds circumstances (and not the arbitrary speed limits) allow, but that may be more for conserving oil than safety? But yes, assuming a similar societal relationship to things motoring and racing, Denmark has fared a lot better than our northern brethren. Still, most, if not all, Danes worth thier salt have had to make their names as expatriates - you don't get far by staying on the few Mickey Mouse circuits at home.

As you appear to be extremely knowledgeable: Is there a chance you could open an informative thread on Norwegian single-seater championships and history? I believe you've had Formula Vee and Formula Ford but when, where, who and how much?
]

Import duties on motor cars are almost as bad here as in Denmark....almost, but not quite.
The harsh "speeding" penalties are officially seen as a means of keeping traffic accidents under control..but in reality, they are revenue generators and very little else. The main road from my home town of Halden, to the E6 main highway close to Svinesund - about 9 kilometres - was given "safety surveillance cameras" about 3 years ago...a total of 5 cameras in each direction, or one every 4/5th of a mile! Now, this piece of road never had many accidents, and no fatal ones since we moved here in 1976....but last summer, there was a fatality, despite all the cameras...a motorcyclist hit a car that pulled out on the main road without seeing the motorcycle approaching.

About single-seater domestic Championships: I will see if I can gather some information. FVee was run here in the Seventies and Eighties (ie, before Rudskogen) on horse-trotting tracks and on frozen lakes in the winter...also, of course, at the Swedish venues. Certainly, the last two or three seasons have seen *no* single-seater categories racing here at all (some sort of record?) and this season sees the birth of something called Formula Basic, somebody has purchased a lot of old Formula First cars from the UK and introduced them as a beginner's class at a sensible price ...the premiere was pretty good, with the podium settled only on the final lap.
So, I will get back with some single-seater information, but to-morrow I am leaving for Le Mans....
possibly to witness another Danish victory ;) Please bear with me for a week or so!

#46 doc knutsen

doc knutsen
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 14 June 2006 - 15:47

Originally posted by Vicuna


Please point to where I have made fun of anyones use of English.

In fact I am tremendously impressed by anyone that can speak, and write, another language. I struggle with English.

Given my admiration of multi-lingual people, I'd never "make fun" as you accuse.

And what gave you the idea that I had an idea that you're Danish?

Anyway, I'm off to drink some Elephant beer I bought today.

Maybe some Aass Bock might lighten you up a bit Doc - 'Skal!'


Well, it seems I may have read you wrong, in which case I apologize.
(Grumble) But that does not mean I'll drink Bock beer...not while there is good Burgundy to be had ;)

#47 Vicuna

Vicuna
  • Member

  • 1,588 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 15 June 2006 - 06:49

You did.

Accepted...

#48 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,705 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 15 June 2006 - 11:47

I think the word here is culture.

It's not just Finland vs the other Nordic countries.

Compare the cases of Belgium vs the Netherlands, or Austria vs Switzerland. All are wealthy countries, all are neighbouring Germany, and yet it's only Belgium and Austria that have a long-running culture of motorsport, whereas the other two have had a lot of catching up to do.

That's why Finland, Austria and Belgium have produced multiple World Champions and Grand Prix winners from their relatively small populations, while the Netherlands probably outstrip those three combined on gross national product but have yet to come up with something better than Jos Verstappen...

#49 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 37,468 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:08

I would say that Germany, providing Gordon-Bennett, Indianapolis and Grand Prix winners before WW1, as well as the bulk of winners between the wars and plenty of Le Mans winners since WW2, has a pretty good motor sport culture...

The interesting thing is the lack of drivers. WW2 had a bit to do with that I assume. Not just the casualties but the bans on international participation in the first few years. That perhaps killed off a lot of grass roots interest - or at least a culture of going outside the borders and having a go?

Then again, how many World Champ drivers have France and Italy produced?

#50 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,705 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 15 June 2006 - 14:34

Originally posted by ensign14
I would say that Germany [...] has a pretty good motor sport culture...


Did I say anywhere that it hasn't? :

I only included Germany in the way that Vicuna originally did when questioning Denmark's motorsport achievements despite it being so close to a big and motorsport-mad country such as Germany.