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1930s, 40s or 50s map of Spa-Francorchamps?


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#1 t0p5ecret

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 05:31

Hi all great forum you have going here :)

I was wondering if anyone had or could point me at a good quality image of a map of Spa Francorchamp from either the 1930's/40 era or the 1950/60's.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
t0p

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 06:01

Darren Galpin's site has one...

http://www.silhouet....tracks/spa.html

I thought Guido de Carli's site would have something but it doesn't... this thread had (note: 'had') something good... but not now...

http://forums.autosp...?threadid=57426

#3 JB Miltonian

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 17:03

Here is a layout map from "Motor Racing Circuits of Europe", first printing 1958, by Klemantaski and Frostick. "The circuit maps were specially prepared for the book by John Dunscombe", to give the credits.
Posted Image

#4 LittleChris

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 23:34

Misses out the Stavelot Hairpin ( up til 1950 ) and Customs House hairpin ( Til 1939 ) unfortunately plus a lot of the kinks. Certainly the road from the Masta Kink to Hollowell isn't straight by any stretch of the imagination

#5 Barry Boor

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 06:52

Certainly the road from the Masta Kink to Hollowell isn't straight by any stretch of the imagination



It's not? :eek:

#6 philippe charuest

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 19:08

hollowell was a left kink before the stavelot hairpin. stavelot was a very slow curve. stavelot was change for a large radius curve in 55-56 im not so sure which year exactly and many other change were done the same year, mainly to widen the track. the next map come from "Starting grid to chequered flag " by Paul Frere

#7 philippe charuest

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 19:27

Posted Image

#8 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 21:32

http://www.kolumbus....lman/t6.htm#SPA

:)

#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 21:58

These changes during the fifties were a part of the 'contest' between Reims and Spa, and to a lesser extent Monza, to have the fastest circuit in Europe...

Kind of a shame they butchered the history of the circuit for that cause.

#10 t0p5ecret

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 05:04

Hi guys, thank you all for the great response, I wasn't expecting anything like this, and especially all the extra knowledge about the changes over the years. Are there any good books/ websites available that have good ontrack photos from those eras ? This is all for a 3d project I am working on.

Cheers

t0p

#11 2F-001

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 06:56

The book mentioned by JB, above post 3, has a number of pictures as well as the maps.
It's a pleasant area to go walking in (if it is is vaguely accessible to you) inside and outside of new and old circuits.

A question:
Some of the older circuit maps indicate a notable curve or kink, part-way between the right-hand kink after the top of Radillon and the section now known (on the 'new' circuit) as Les Combes. Assuming those maps are correct, when was that kink removed? When the 'new' track was built, or before? (Although I've explored the area a great deal, my first visit was not until the early nineties.)

#12 Barry Boor

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 07:26

The point that 2F has raised has troubled me for some time. I know many people scoff at the Legends simulation but their circuits are, in general, pretty good. However, on the original Legends Spa, the circuit is straight from the top of Radillon until you turn left to drop down towards Burnenville.

So, when did they straighten that piece of road. or in fact, did they ever?

#13 SEdward

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 07:29

I think that the gentle right-hander you're referring to is after the new circuit turns off to the right. That new corner is known as Les Combes, but the original Les Combes - a left-hander - is a few hundred yards further up the hill.

Edward

#14 2F-001

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 08:54

No, that's not what I mean, Edward...
I'm taking the original 'Les Combes' to mean the pronounced lefthander, where the current main road makes a junction with Rue des Combes and the little road that runs past the caravan park (an on towards Rivage - the settlement, not the corner).
The righthand kink leading into that is at the point the 'new' circuit turns hard right, and leads past the run-off space to the metal gates across the road. Thereafter it's lefthand kinks until a very gentle right at a road that is now called (I think) Myrtle's Way, before the long Burnenville curve.

What I was thinking of the what is often shown as a long sweep before the top of the hill and predominantly to the left.
I'm beginning to think this is a cumulative effect of slightly sloppy mapping, positioning the right after Radillon a litle bit too far uo the road, exaggerating the right curve at the top of the hill, and not leaving enough in between to indicate as straight. Of the various older maps I have, several differ in this area, even differing as to which way the track curved, so I'm beginning to doubt them all.

#15 LittleChris

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 21:00

IIRC if you watch the footage of the 1961 Belgian GP on MFQ Vol 1 , there is quite a lot of footage of the kinks after the Raidillon. I seem to remember being in France in 1977 and seeing footage of the recent bike GP and the kinks were definitely there then. I always thought the whole section was straightened out when they built the new circuit.

#16 2F-001

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 12:26

That's interesting, thanks Chris. I'll check out the MFQ footage again (vol 2 I think, rather than vol1 - although I gave that to my father so I don't have it here right now).
I have an aerial pic of the track taken a little while after the 'new' track opened which shows the tree line on the inside being 'wiggly' as if the road might have been straightened. I've walked up and around there often enough but have never particularly noted that aspect - I just assumed it was always more-or-less straight... there is a spot on the inside of the 'Kemmel' straight where the ground does not drop away quite so suddenly.

#17 LittleChris

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 21:04

Tony,

You're right it is MFQ 2 - Don't know how I got that wrong as it's still my favourite bit of the whole series ! More old Spa footage please DCN and DW :clap: !!

I don't have a scanner but in Francorchamps 1948 - 1960 ( Jean-Paul Delsaux ) at top of page 214 there's a photo taken at Km 1 looking in the direction of the race that shows the first part of the right left right that was bypassed when the new circuit was built ( I also think the wiggly tree line is an aerial giveaway as to where this section originally was ) . Don't be fooled by the reference to Burnenville in the picture captioning as I believe the whole section from Eau Rouge up to Haut de La Cote was referred to as the Burnenville hill.

Chris

#18 t0p5ecret

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 05:07

Thanks for that Chris, I wasn't sure if Francorchamps 1948 - 1960 was worth my 160 AUD but I'll be ordering it now for sure, i got quite a few good reference photos from Motor Racing Circuits of Europe and a heap of old issues of MotorSport. Pardon my ignorance but what's MFQ?

#19 2F-001

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 05:12

MFQ = Motorfilms Quarterly
http://www.motorfilm...m/quarterly.php

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#20 t0p5ecret

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 05:31

Man you guys are quick :) thank you so much for all the info and help

#21 LittleChris

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 21:11

Just a warning that virtually all of the pictures in Francorchamps 1948 - 1960 are of the area between La Source and Kemmel.

#22 Bernard

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 11:41

Henry Manney once wrote a guide to European Racing Circuits in Road and Track, different to the article reprinted in Henry Manney at large when he described the Masta kink as "where someone was really going to unload". Unfortunately that description fitted sidecar racer Johan Attenberger some years later .

#23 t0p5ecret

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 00:07

Ah bugger Chris, I was hoping it would have more images of the other sections...the sections that are harder to get shots of.