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Most GPs without a win


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#1 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 11:41

I would imagine this is buried deep in some other thread, but I was wondering with the number of GPs they have these days, where Chris Amon sits in the table for most GPs without a win.
Did Alesi or Fisichella do more GPs before they won?

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#2 David M. Kane

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 11:57

Andreas DeCrasheais?

#3 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:05

Quick answers:

Those who never won or are STILL without a win:

1 Andrea de Cesaris 208
2 Martin Brundle 158
3 Derek Warwick 146
4 Jean Pierre Jarier 134
5 Eddie Cheever 132
6 Pierluigi Martini 119
7 Jenson Button 110
8 Philippe Alliot 109
9 Mika Salo 109
10 Nick Heidfeld 107
11 Jos Verstappen 106
12 Pedro Diniz 98
13 Chris Amon 96


Mika Hakkinen got his first win on his 96th start, level with Amon.

Barichello won his 1st GP in his 123rd race. Trulli was on 117 GP's when he won at Monaco. Alesi was on 91 starts. Fisichella on 110.

#4 mark f1

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:09

Races Started without a win.

De Cesaris 208
Brundle 158
Warwick 146
Jarier 134
Regazzoni 132
Cheever 132
Martini 119
Button 110
Alliot 109
Salo 109
Heidfeld 107
Verstappen 106
Diniz 98
Amon 96



Don't think I missed any. Courtesy of forix.

Mark

#5 mark f1

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:10

beat me to it.....

#6 cm50

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:19

But all would have to admit that Amon was streets ahead in ability and a class above most of those on the list

#7 cm50

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:21

Correction....ALL

#8 D-Type

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:46

Is there a website with this sort of statistic listed? For example, how many races did it take Mansell? And there were a few others who took a while to get their first win.

#9 James Page

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:54

Mansell took 72 races - the floodgates rather opened after that…

#10 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:59

Originally posted by mark f1
Races Started without a win.
Salo 109

Oh how he must regret giving that win to Irvine. I think in his position, I'd have said stuff it, I'd rather win this and never get another F1 drive!

#11 Marcel Visbeen

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 13:18

Originally posted by mark f1
Races Started without a win.

Regazzoni 132


:eek: Ooops!

#12 mark f1

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 13:24

Yes double oops, sorry about that.

Mark

#13 stuartbrs

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 13:53

God I miss Alesi....

#14 Sharman

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 15:33

What about when it really mattered i.e. not under Marquess of Ecclestones Rules

#15 David M. Kane

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 15:41

Do I get any points for a good guess?

#16 subh

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 16:34

I’d like to see the equivalent list for IndyCars and/or CART, etc....

#17 David M. Kane

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 17:19

Guess #2...Derek Daly...

#18 Twin Window

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 17:43

Originally posted by mark f1

Races Started without a win.

Regazzoni 132

:confused:

He won his fifth GP - Italy 1970 - and went on to win one a year in 1974, 1975 and 1976. There were lengthy win-less periods between Monza 1970 - Nurburgring 1974, and Long Beach 1976 - Silverstone 1979, but no way did either amount to 132 races...

#19 Agnis

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 19:10

Riccardo Patrese. Started in 256 GP's, won 6 of them, so he has 250 GP's without a win ;)

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#20 Simpson RX1

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 20:41

Originally posted by stuartbrs
God I miss Alesi....



Sorry to say, he looked a bit average in the DTM last weekend.....

#21 Keir

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 21:52

Chris is falling down the list !!

#22 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 23:01

Branded as the worlds unluckiest GP driver Chris starts to look pretty succesful amongst that list. thanks. Only Button, Salo and Jarier would come close on ability, therefore possibly being unluckier.
I mean Jarier......... towards the end of his career he finally gets a drive in a decent car, the Lotus 79, blitzes the field and retires out of fuel a few laps from the end!

#23 Keir

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 23:14

I saw JPJ race the 79 that season !! He did a nice job a little too late !!

#24 WHITE

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 05:16

Originally posted by Keir
I saw JPJ race the 79 that season !! He did a nice job a little too late !!




Well... he did a nice job once he had a nice car.

I remember Chapman saying that Jarrier had been the fastest driver he had ever had at Lotus.

#25 Catalina Park

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 10:14

Bah, statistics. :rolleyes:

Chris Amon won three Grand Prix. He just never won any that scored points.

#26 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 11:08

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Bah, statistics. :rolleyes:

Chris Amon won three Grand Prix. He just never won any that scored points.


I wouldn't be so sure about that...

He scored 9 points in the one I saw him win!

#27 Catalina Park

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 11:22

OK I am wrong (again) and he would have got another 9 for another one.

#28 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 12:01

Originally posted by Catalina Park
OK I am wrong (again) and he would have got another 9 for another one.


Yeah, the Kiwis are like that...

#29 stuartbrs

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 13:32

A lot of these guys though, whilst not champions or boring points accumulators... were great to watch.. Like my Alesi comment earlier.. head pitched to one side as they throw everything and more at a car that either could or couldnt handle it...

Ive been thinking a lot lately about what it is that leaves me cold about modern F1... and there is a lot to choose from..but I keep coming back to Alesi, Berger,Depaillier,Villenueve..etc that used to just love what they did for the sake of it.. Berger mellowed a lot in his later years, but I remember well watching Alesi in a Prost/Ferrari/Benneton or a Jordan with his head cocked to one side and obviously relishing giving a corner death each time he came to it..whilst not a great, he was certainly inspiring to watch... and had a passion for F1 that is clearly lacking a mere 3 or 4 years later.. the last true F1 romantic in my minds eye...

But then my father says that about a different set of drivers completely... at least I listen to him..after all, he did see Chris Amon, Jim Clark, Graham Hill etc at Longford...

#30 stevewf1

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 22:01

I'm curious about something... what is considered a GP start?

:confused:

#31 Paul Taylor

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 21:26

Originally posted by stevewf1
I'm curious about something... what is considered a GP start?

:confused:


Being on the grid and putting your foot on the accelerator when the light goes green (or when the flag drops)? Posted Image :p

#32 Wolf

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 22:10

Originally posted by Paul Taylor


Being on the grid and putting your foot on the accelerator when the light goes green (or when the flag drops)? Posted Image :p


Yes, Paul- but the question is when and where is this race taking place...;) My favourite driver has IIANM 40 GP wins- mind you, only 16 in WDC events.

Hans has done a splendid job on his list of pre-War Grand Prix races, but has anything similar been tried for post-War period? Would his criteria be compatible with post-war period?

#33 Dallas84

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 23:15

Who, then, has driven the greatest total number of GP laps without ever having lead a lap?

#34 Paul Taylor

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 23:30

Could be Brundle - there's no "Laps Lead" section in his profile on FORIX...

#35 WHITE

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 05:29

Originally posted by Dallas84
Who, then, has driven the greatest total number of GP laps without ever having lead a lap?



Mauro Baldi ?
Roberto Moreno ?

#36 Dallas84

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 05:30

Interesting, thanks for that - I guess that is one statistic that he will steer clear of during his commentaries

#37 stevewf1

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 12:45

Originally posted by Paul Taylor


Being on the grid and putting your foot on the accelerator when the light goes green (or when the flag drops)? Posted Image :p


I know it sounded like a silly question.

However...

What about race re-starts? Did Jacques Laffite "start" the 1986 British GP? Does it count as a "start" even though the race was stopped and started all over again? That would mean that Laffite suffered career-ending injuries in a race he never "started".

What about warmup/formation lap retirements? I thought that lap "counted" towards the total race distance even though they're not racing.

Just wondered if there's an "official" determination as to when a driver actually starts a GP...

:)

#38 David M. Kane

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 16:29

JPM might have found his natural home, something more suited to his personality and his mentality...NASCAR. Is this the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning; maybe even the beginning of the beginning?

I CAN'T wait to see what Bernie says! I hope he has the sense to just button it up for once...

#39 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 11:25

Mike Thackwell was the youngest driver ever to start a Grand Prix, However those who check lap charts will not see a reference to him completing a lap, and those who check chassis numbers will see that the car Thackwell started in was actually used in the race by Jean Pierre Jarier (funny how he pops up in the thread again)

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#40 E.B.

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 12:24

Originally posted by stevewf1
What about race re-starts? Did Jacques Laffite "start" the 1986 British GP? Does it count as a "start" even though the race was stopped and started all over again? That would mean that Laffite suffered career-ending injuries in a race he never "started".


I seem to recall that this was the race in which Laffite equalled Graham Hill's then record of 176 starts, so the answer to your question is yes I believe.

#41 Paul Taylor

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 13:24

Steve Small's GP Who's Who says that was a "Ret/DNS". FORIX just reports it as a collision on 'Lap 0'.

#42 ensign14

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 13:37

Originally posted by stevewf1

Just wondered if there's an "official" determination as to when a driver actually starts a GP...

Like the King's Foot, it keeps changing...to my mind a driver starts a GP when the flag drops/lights go out. If he stalls on the grid and does not take the re-start it is still a start.

#43 lofong

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 14:54

Originally posted by Dallas84
Who, then, has driven the greatest total number of GP laps without ever having lead a lap?

I would guess Brundle. I believe Cheever, Alliot and Verstappen are the other drivers who have also started more than 100 races without leading a single lap.

This reminded me of the curious stat of 7 instances in championship history where drivers have won GPs without leading a single lap!;)

#44 mark f1

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 15:17

Most laps led without a win is (I think) Chris Amon with 183 laps led.

Brundle has 7522 laps without ever leading one. Next is Eddie Cheever with 5490 laps.

Mark

#45 2F-001

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 15:25

Originally posted by lofong
...This reminded me of the curious stat of 7 instances in championship history where drivers have won GPs without leading a single lap!;)

Surely these are, in the main, races where a driver has has 'won' on the road is subsequently given a time penalty (most likely for a jumped start, eg Andretti at Monza) or disqualified. Or are you thinking of some really wierd examples?

#46 ensign14

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 15:34

Originally posted by 2F-001

Surely these are, in the main, races where a driver has has 'won' on the road is subsequently given a time penalty (most likely for a jumped start, eg Andretti at Monza) or disqualified. Or are you thinking of some really wierd examples?

De Angelis at San Marino is another example, plus the Musso and Fagioli wins with JMF and Brooks with Moss.

#47 E.B.

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 15:42

Originally posted by 2F-001

Surely these are, in the main, races where a driver has has 'won' on the road is subsequently given a time penalty (most likely for a jumped start, eg Andretti at Monza) or disqualified. Or are you thinking of some really wierd examples?


I would imagine it relates to shared drives where one of the drivers never led a lap - shades of the Indy trivia question about the 2 men who appear on the Borg Warner trophy but never actually ever led a lap of the race.

#48 2F-001

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 15:47

Ah, yes, shared drives; but as with disqualifications and time penalties, that's entirely predictable in events where that is permitted (it could apply to any number of endurance - or two-part shared drives such as the TT in the mid-seventies or Norisring-type events - without anyone batting an eyelid).

So, if there are seven, and we have five of them...

#49 ensign14

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 16:01

Prost at SAf 1982.

And the devil in me suggests Revson at Canada...

#50 2F-001

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 16:13

:)

The Prost win was in Brasil wasn't it (rather than Kyalami) - wasn't this the disqualifications for running underweight with reservoirs for water-cooled brakes?

There were a few shared-drive wins in the mid-20.s and early 30s, I think, too.

(In the example I cited, Andretti was the 'winner-on-the-road' rather than the winner.)