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BMW Vertical Wings


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#1 Tresor

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 13:25

I am not sure if there is a technical thread going already, but if there isn't then I would appreciate a TECHNICAL discussion of the vertical wings that BMW-Sauber was running last week at Jerez. It is understood that they intend to run them this weekend at Magny-Cours, so it would appear that they see some technical advantages in them. I would like to know what benefits, if any, that techies on this forum see in the wings. It looks to me like they are intended to work in tandem with the McLaren-like wings on the air box.

Any ideas? Thanks folks for your input.

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#2 zac510

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 14:12

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=88653

Usual fare it seems, 'cleans up the airflow'.

#3 macoran

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 23:40

BMW makes F1 ridiculous !!
Cleans up the airflow my.....

They wouldn't try and convince customers they clean up the airflow
with these on a 7 series would they ?

#4 Dallas84

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 09:34

Does anyone know if they flex?

#5 desmo

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 21:40

Everything flexes.

#6 Stian1979

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 01:03

I would guess they split the airflow ao less densety air will hit the driver and engine cover and cleaner and higher densety air will hit the rear wing.

Would I be far off?

#7 rhm

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 08:34

It's difficult to know what they're for even if someone understands aerodynamics because like a lot of stuff on modern F1 cars, the effects are likely rather small and non-obvious. Anyway, I'll stick my neck out.... :)


Originally posted by Stian1979
I would guess they split the airflow ao less densety air will hit the driver and engine cover and cleaner and higher densety air will hit the rear wing.

Would I be far off?


I don't think they'd want to do that. Mostly they'd be taking air away from the engine intake which wouldn't be a good idea for top-end power. Also, I don't see there's anything behind the cockpit to direct airflow back to the rear wing, and most importantly, directing air away from something doesn't reduce drag overall because at least as much drag is made by the deflecting device.

No, I think those fins on the nose are all about centering airflow. It's possible that the vortex that comes off the tips is designed to interact with the engine intake. If we see them at Monza then that's a fair bet. If they're removed for Monza then we can cancel that theory. Another more obvious theory is that they straighten up airflow to the rear wing during cornering (where the car is necessarilly in yaw to some degree). The effect would be pretty miniscule though I'd think.

#8 Stian1979

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 15:04

The wings are not tall enough to devert the air stream to the engine intake.

I would exspect the drag to drop if the air is carefully splited in advance then hitting the helmet and the front off the enginecover with full force. Will be interesting to see the tecnical analysis on formula1.com when race weekend starts.

#9 pio!pio!

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 17:30

not only are they using those strange vertical wings but they also adopted Mclaren's viking horn wings also

#10 rhm

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 19:35

Originally posted by Stian1979
The wings are not tall enough to devert the air stream to the engine intake.

Yes they are. See :-
http://www.autosport...to.php/id/53004

Originally posted by Stian1979

I would exspect the drag to drop if the air is carefully splited in advance then hitting the helmet and the front off the enginecover with full force.


"With full force"? From a drag point of view, all that matters is turbulence caused by flow seperation and in the cockpit area the worst of that comes from the back of the driver's helmet. All the other parts... the air has to flow around them, but there's nothing you can do about that. How much crap do you see hanging off the front of an airliner to reduce drag? Nothing of course - the airliner's fuselage has a certain cross-sectional area that is set by the requirements of the aircraft. It has a fairly bluff front (instead of the pointed front most people imagine is best for "cutting through the air") because that is all that's required to displace the air around the fuselage without causing seperation. I don't want to say you should read a book on aerodynamics because I'm not exactly an expert myself, but there are a few basic principles you should be aware of.

#11 angst

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 20:54

Aren't these very similar to something Derek Gardner tried out on an early seventies Tyrrell-Ford?

#12 WHITE

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 21:28

Originally posted by angst
Aren't these very similar to something Derek Gardner tried out on an early seventies Tyrrell-Ford?


And Matra too !

#13 angst

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 22:05

Originally posted by WHITE


And Matra too !


Yes, I remmebr the Matra versions, alot shorter, but doing the same job? But the ones on the Tyrrell were also quite tall, but in more of a 'v', as I remember. I don't think they ever ran it during a race weekend - if ever. I wish I could remember where I saw the article. I think it might have been on these very forums.

#14 desmo

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 03:05

Nowadays I'd think it unlikely this sort of thing would be tried if it hadn't shown real benefit in tunnel testing and CFD before they fabbed them up and fitted them for track testing.

What do the static pressure variances in a trailing vortex typically look like?

#15 kNt

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 09:21

Maybee they make the car more stable under sidewinds, since now the area of attack is more the same on the front and the back.

#16 WHITE

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 09:40

Originally posted by angst


Yes, I remmebr the Matra versions, alot shorter, but doing the same job? But the ones on the Tyrrell were also quite tall, but in more of a 'v', as I remember. I don't think they ever ran it during a race weekend - if ever. I wish I could remember where I saw the article. I think it might have been on these very forums.


Angst, here it is : [img] http://forums.autosp...er raced275.gif [img]


However, those wings/fins looked like a dihedral wing so I suppose they were intended to increase car stability, which seems not to be BMW's purpose now.

#17 WHITE

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 09:43

Originally posted by angst


Yes, I remmebr the Matra versions, alot shorter, but doing the same job? But the ones on the Tyrrell were also quite tall, but in more of a 'v', as I remember. I don't think they ever ran it during a race weekend - if ever. I wish I could remember where I saw the article. I think it might have been on these very forums.


Angst, here it is : [img] http://forums.autosp...ell never raced [img]


However, those wings/fins looked like a dihedral wing so I suppose they were intended to increase car stability, which seems not to be BMW's purpose now.




* Edit : the thread title was - The Tyrrell car that never raced

#18 imaginesix

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 18:57

They are placed directly above the suspension and are in-line with the bellcrank axis, so I tend to think they are merely shrouds for some delicate component which would otherwise protrude from the bodywork.
Either that, or this: http://images.pictur...68/22626857.jpg

#19 Stian1979

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 06:57

formula1.com
This radical-looking aero solution was used in the last test at Jerez and then adopted for France. The two vertical fins on the nose, around 40 cm high, give the car an unconventional look, but fall within regulations regarding bodywork height. Their purpose is to improve stability and efficiently direct airflow towards the central and rear sections of the car. The concept is similar to that of the 'ears' on the Renault nose, but BMW Sauber have taken it to the extreme to increase its effect.


Then that is sorted out.

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#20 rhm

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:12

Originally posted by Stian1979


Then that is sorted out.


I guess it is if you regard foruma1.com as the definitive source of technical information about Formula 1. If that were the case I'd have to wonder why Scarbs bothers writing his columns for Autosport.com. If the author of that page has spoken to someone at BMW about the nose fins then fair enough. If they haven't it's just a guess like all the theories here. You'll notice if you've read the formula1.com "analysis" for a while that everything is extremely vague. It'll all be "blah blah... reduces drag" or "blah blah... helps condition flow to the rear wing". That doesn't really tell you anything does it? Anyone could have written that, in fact I think some people here did. The fact that the explanations are apparently published anonymously doesn't add much confidence either. The pictures are nice though :)

#21 desmo

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 17:56

Amen rhm. I think "flow conditioning" can actually be translated into "I've no bloody idea but here, this sounds technical" or "I do have a bloody idea but I'm going to feed you this essentially meaninglessly vague answer in the hopes that you then go away."

#22 zac510

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 23:31

hehe, maybe they help the car go backwards.

#23 Pioneer

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 02:02

Those are merely a facade. They are actually just to give the nose mounted lasers more height so that they have a better angle.

#24 rhm

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 12:35

And they're gone...

#25 roadie

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 13:41

Thank God. Quite how they were allowed to race with them in France is beyond me.

#26 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 15:30

Too bad moving aerodynamic surfaces are banned, otherwise those vertical BMW wings would make nice steering fins.

#27 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 15:33

Originally posted by rhm


I guess it is if you regard foruma1.com as the definitive source of technical information about Formula 1. If that were the case I'd have to wonder why Scarbs bothers writing his columns for Autosport.com. If the author of that page has spoken to someone at BMW about the nose fins then fair enough. If they haven't it's just a guess like all the theories here. You'll notice if you've read the formula1.com "analysis" for a while that everything is extremely vague. It'll all be "blah blah... reduces drag" or "blah blah... helps condition flow to the rear wing". That doesn't really tell you anything does it? Anyone could have written that, in fact I think some people here did. The fact that the explanations are apparently published anonymously doesn't add much confidence either. The pictures are nice though :)


Vague technical sounding commentary constitutes the bulk of reporting on F1.

#28 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 17:03

Originally posted by kNt
Maybee they make the car more stable under sidewinds, since now the area of attack is more the same on the front and the back.


You might be on to something.