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Honda F1 goes 400 kph (248 mph) at Bonneville


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#1 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 20:45

www.bonneville400.com

The Honda F1 team set a new FIA record for the AII-8 class (special construction, normally aspirated, 2 to 3 liters), breaking the record set nineteen years ago by Jeff Nish's streamliner. Their one-way speed of 400.9 kph equaled the fastest speeds run at Bonneville by an SCTA normally aspirated gas lakester of the same displacement.

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#2 RJS

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 20:50

It's a great record to set, but my cynical mindset can't help thinking that resources might be more useful elsewhere (that is of course if their aim is to use F1 as a platform for publicising the brand).

#3 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 21:11

I'd like to see Honda build a purpose-built Bonneville streamliner with multiple F1 engines and go after the record for normally aspirated piston-engine wheel-driven cars set in 1965 by the Summers brothers with Goldenrod.

#4 Imperial

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 21:17

Originally posted by RJS
It's a great record to set, but my cynical mindset can't help thinking that resources might be more useful elsewhere (that is of course if their aim is to use F1 as a platform for publicising the brand).


Well it really just proves that F1 is just another vehicle (excuse the pun) to promote their brand (which of course only an idiot would think it's not).

Is your F1 team a bit slow and your not getting good press? What better a thing to do than some stupid publicity stunt to get in the papers.

Honda (like all the manufacturers) don't give a shit about anything unless they're winning. They're not winning so it's time for the crazy stunts.

#5 Hiatt

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 21:19

Congratulation to Honda for bulding the fastest F1 car in the world, ever! :clap:

#6 HBoss

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 21:24

Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff
I'd like to see Honda build a purpose-built Bonneville streamliner with multiple F1 engines and go after the record for normally aspirated piston-engine wheel-driven cars set in 1965 by the Summers brothers with Goldenrod.


Which is?

#7 scheivlak

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 21:54

Well, one-way speed doesn't count for the books!

And a 2006 Honda F1 record breaker is still not as fast as Caracciola and Rosemeyer in the 1930s with their streamlined Mercedes and Auto Union GP cars!
:smoking:

My admiration for those 400+ km/h records and record attempts at the Autobahn grows and grows.......

#8 kNt

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 23:33

Doing such a record with an open-wheel car is just very very stupid. They were faster in the 30s as stated before.

#9 FAUST!!!

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 23:35

Originally posted by scheivlak
Well, one-way speed doesn't count for the books!

And a 2006 Honda F1 record breaker is still not as fast as Caracciola and Rosemeyer in the 1930s with their streamlined Mercedes and Auto Union GP cars!
:smoking:

My admiration for those 400+ km/h records and record attempts at the Autobahn grows and grows.......





Rosemeyer in describing his record setting run stated that "... at about 240 mph the joints in the concrete road surface are felt like blows, setting up a corresponding resonance through the car, but this disappears at a greater speed. Passing under bridges the driver receives a terrific blow to the chest, because the car is pushing air aside, which is trapped by the bridge. When you go under a bridge, for a split second the engine noise completely disappears and then returns like a thunderclap when you are through. :up:

#10 MPea3

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 00:19

I'm more impressed by runs such as those done by Campbell in the various incarnations of Bluebird at Daytona in the early 30's. When you stand on and look down the beach, the thought of 275 mph is very humbling.

Congrats to Honda on whatever they accomplish.

#11 ehagar

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 00:54

Originally posted by scheivlak


And a 2006 Honda F1 record breaker is still not as fast as Caracciola and Rosemeyer in the 1930s with their streamlined Mercedes and Auto Union GP cars!
:smoking:

My admiration for those 400+ km/h records and record attempts at the Autobahn grows and grows.......


and Gil DeFerran went 241.428 mph around Fontana (388.457652 km/hr) in a car that had to turn!

#12 hedges

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 01:23

Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff
www.bonneville400.com

The Honda F1 team set a new FIA record for the AII-8 class (special construction, normally aspirated, 2 to 3 liters), breaking the record set nineteen years ago by Jeff Nish's streamliner. Their one-way speed of 400.9 kph equaled the fastest speeds run at Bonneville by an SCTA normally aspirated gas lakester of the same displacement.


Maybe it's just me but beating a 20 year old record for speed seems pretty naff. Is that as far as we've got in 20 years?

#13 Sith

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 03:49

I thought they were going for 500km/h??? :confused: I saw Champcars do 400km/h on the back straight at Fontana in 99'...

#14 johnkatos

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 03:54

quote:Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff
I'd like to see Honda build a purpose-built Bonneville streamliner with multiple F1 engines and go after the record for normally aspirated piston-engine wheel-driven cars set in 1965 by the Summers brothers with Goldenrod.



Which is?

The record set by Bob Summers, the following week in 1965, was to signal the sunset of an era in land speed racing. On November 12th the Goldenrod, what the purists consider one of the few wheel powered land speed vehicles from a bygone era, reached an average speed of 409.277 mph (658.526 kph).

#15 JForce

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 04:37

I'm not that impressed for some reason. They've hit what, 370km/h at Monza? In race trim? How hard can it be to tune the car for a run to just get a little faster? Am I missing something?

#16 dgsg

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 04:39

Some interesting LSR info; http://www.peterrenn....net/l.s.r.html

#17 Zoe

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 04:43

Originally posted by Sith
I thought they were going for 500km/h??? :confused: I saw Champcars do 400km/h on the back straight at Fontana in 99'...


I have to say I'm not that much impressed by the Honda feat as well. OTOH if I understand it correctly, the record run was for a non-turbo engine with no more than 3 l displacement, insofar the comparison with a ChampCar is moot.

On a related note, I did 75 mph in my 79 Cadillac last monday :D

Zoe

#18 kamix

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 05:01

I noticed they only did 370 or so in the other direction, making use of a tailwind?

Their progress so far seems underwhelming.

#19 dgsg

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 05:09

Originally posted by kamix
Their progress so far seems underwhelming.


In F1 also!

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#20 Sean L

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 07:26

What a waste of South African Alan van der Merwe's talent! He really is a fantastic circuit racer and should be currently improving his experience with the F1 team.

They've been planning this run for over a year at least. They tried near the end of last year but when they got there Bonneville was under a foot of water. Apparently the earlier attempt this week included quite a few spins as it was damp.

#21 djellison

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 09:09

Bring on JCB Diesel Max :)

Doug

#22 Hiatt

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 10:07

Originally posted by FAUST!!!





Rosemeyer in describing his record setting run stated that "... at about 240 mph the joints in the concrete road surface are felt like blows, setting up a corresponding resonance through the car, but this disappears at a greater speed. Passing under bridges the driver receives a terrific blow to the chest, because the car is pushing air aside, which is trapped by the bridge. When you go under a bridge, for a split second the engine noise completely disappears and then returns like a thunderclap when you are through. :up:

I almost cried reading about his last attempt to regain the speed record :cry:

#23 djellison

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 10:48

Originally posted by kNt
Doing such a record with an open-wheel car is just very very stupid. They were faster in the 30s as stated before.


But if you're going to set a record for A MODERN F1 CAR...then you have to have open wheels :)

It'd be like criticising the JCB team for using diesel engines...THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE PROJECT :)

Thinking about this a little...

McLaren F1 Road Car / cancelled Maverick WLSR attempt
McLaren Merc SLR
Williams Renault Clio / BTCC efforts.
Honda Bonne 400..

All projects outside the direct scope of designing and building F1 cars whos conception preceeded a drop in team performance.

Doug

#24 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 13:38

Originally posted by Imperial


Well it really just proves that F1 is just another vehicle (excuse the pun) to promote their brand (which of course only an idiot would think it's not).

Is your F1 team a bit slow and your not getting good press? What better a thing to do than some stupid publicity stunt to get in the papers.

Honda (like all the manufacturers) don't give a shit about anything unless they're winning. They're not winning so it's time for the crazy stunts.


An ignorant mindset free of any imagination but showing not the least comprehension of the demands and dangers of record breaking at Bonneville.

#25 WHITE

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 13:42

Honda F1 goes 400 Kph... at bonneville

I hope they will soon come back :smoking:

#26 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 13:46

Originally posted by kamix
I noticed they only did 370 or so in the other direction, making use of a tailwind?

Their progress so far seems underwhelming.


Your knowledge of the context seems so far underwhelming.

For example, you seem to have no concept of how poor the traction on salt is compared to pavement.

Or the fact Bonneville is at an elevation of 4,500 feet.

Or the fact that even with radiators and conventional F1 tires they're still going as fast as their direct SCTA lakester counterpart did with narrow LSR tires, ultra narrow body, full canopy and water tank cooling.

#27 275 GTB-4

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 13:50

Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff


Your knowledge of the context seems so far underwhelming.

For example, you seem to have no concept of how poor the traction on salt is compared to pavement.

Or the fact Bonneville is at an elevation of 4,500 feet.

Or the fact that even with radiators and conventional F1 tires they're still going as fast as their direct SCTA lakester counterpart did with narrow LSR tires, ultra narrow body, full canopy and water tank cooling.


or......how hard it is to do 400km/hr in something other than your lounge chair :rolleyes:

#28 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 13:52

Originally posted by JForce
I'm not that impressed for some reason. They've hit what, 370km/h at Monza? In race trim? How hard can it be to tune the car for a run to just get a little faster? Am I missing something?


YES.

You're missing two things.

You seem to have no idea that Bonneville has only half the traction of pavement.

Or that they're running at an elevation of 4,500 feet with a normally aspirated engine.

#29 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 14:03

Originally posted by HBoss


Which is?


409 mph.

Goldenrod is the only normally aspirated car ever to exceed 400 mph.

Driver Bob Summers set the record with his 7th and 8th runs.

On his 9th run he went 425 mph one-way through the mile.

#30 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 14:09

Originally posted by hedges


Maybe it's just me but beating a 20 year old record for speed seems pretty naff. Is that as far as we've got in 20 years?


The Nish record was set with a full purpose-built streamliner.

The Honda team is doing it with an F1 car.

If Honda put their F1 chassis inside a streamliner body, they would have an over 300 mph car.

#31 marcus123

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 14:12

I think they had to maintain 400kpf for a full mile, which means full throttle for something like 45 seconds.

#32 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 14:14

Originally posted by MPea3
I'm more impressed by runs such as those done by Campbell in the various incarnations of Bluebird at Daytona in the early 30's. When you stand on and look down the beach, the thought of 275 mph is very humbling.

Congrats to Honda on whatever they accomplish.


Sir Malcolm Campbell had exceptional guts and determination.

#33 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 14:16

Originally posted by marcus123
I think they had to maintain 400kpf for a full mile, which means full throttle for something like 45 seconds.


When you include the measured mile, he was under acceleration for five miles.

#34 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 14:27

Originally posted by ehagar


and Gil DeFerran went 241.428 mph around Fontana (388.457652 km/hr) in a car that had to turn!


DeFerran was doing it on pavement.

Salt isn't pavement.

The fastest speeds ever run anywhere in the world with a conventional motorcycle (265 mph at Elvington) were on pavement not on salt.

#35 HBoss

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 14:38

Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff


409 mph.

Goldenrod is the only normally aspirated car ever to exceed 400 mph.

Driver Bob Summers set the record with his 7th and 8th runs.

On his 9th run he went 425 mph one-way through the mile.



And what engine did that have???

#36 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 14:40

Originally posted by dgsg
Some interesting LSR info; http://www.peterrenn....net/l.s.r.html


http://www.hotrod.co...ars/index3.html

Here's a link to a page with photos of Les Leggitt's 1975 lakester, the first open wheel piston engine car to do over 300 mph.

Also on the page is Fred Larsen's great streamliner, the first car to go 300 mph on three liters.

#37 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 14:55

Originally posted by HBoss



And what engine did that have???


Four iron block fuel injected Chrysler hemis.

Six piston engine cars have either clocked over 400 mph through the mile or set a record over 400 mph (John Cobb's Railton, Mickey Thompson's Challenger I, Summers brothers Goldenrod, Al Teague's car, Nolan White's car, and the Burkland's streamliner). Half of them used the hemi.

#38 kNt

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 18:42

Originally posted by djellison


But if you're going to set a record for A MODERN F1 CAR...then you have to have open wheels :)

The car is quite heavily modified, it has no Rearwing and very narrow Radiator inlets, so I'd atleast do a special with enclosed wheels.

#39 jo-briggs

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 18:45

So what.....

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#40 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 18:56

Originally posted by kNt

The car is quite heavily modified, it has no Rearwing and very narrow Radiator inlets, so I'd atleast do a special with enclosed wheels.


Now that Honda has demonstrated what can be done with what is still recognizably an F1 car, it would be a logical step to consider building on that experience for next year by seeing what can be done with an F1 chassis inside a full envelope body. Assuming tires are not a problem, somewhere in the low 300 mph range should be possible with the chassis and engine they have now.

#41 Imperial

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 19:04

Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff


An ignorant mindset free of any imagination but showing not the least comprehension of the demands and dangers of record breaking at Bonneville.


Sorry to interrupt your thread (although I'm sure I saw a post by someone else in here :rotfl: ) but yours is not to state that I have no imagination.

I have nothing but admiration for people who go ahead and try real challenges, but not at the expense of the day job.

And I of course would not dare do anything else but bow down to one who is clearly the master of knowledge in the field and has the most comprehension of the demands and dangers of record breaking at Bonneville. I wouldn't dream of commenting on the technicalities of this endeavour, to be honest I don't particularly care either, but I wouldn't and so haven't commented on that area, because it's not the main issue for me.

I do however understand the concept of spreading something too thin and diversifying to the detriment of the core, and as such it's plainly obvious that Honda should be concentrating on their F1 team, not some bastardised hybrid to achieve some record that few will ever hear or even care about. There's a lot of people out there laughing at their F1 team right now though and they would be obviously better served concentrating on that alone.

Unless Honda are just doing this as a publicity stunt of course....

But would one of the biggest companies on earth think of doing such a thing?

Why no Alfons, they care only for the spectacle !!!!!

My arse they do.....

#42 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 19:10

Originally posted by Imperial


Sorry to interrupt your thread (although I'm sure I saw a post by someone else in here :rotfl: ) but yours is not to state that I have no imagination.

I have nothing but admiration for people who go ahead and try real challenges, but not at the expense of the day job.

And I of course would not dare do anything else but bow down to one who is clearly the master of knowledge in the field and has the most comprehension of the demands and dangers of record breaking at Bonneville. I wouldn't dream of commenting on the technicalities of this endeavour, to be honest I don't particularly care either, but I wouldn't and so haven't commented on that area, because it's not the main issue for me.

I do however understand the concept of spreading something too thin and diversifying to the detriment of the core, and as such it's plainly obvious that Honda should be concentrating on their F1 team, not some bastardised hybrid to achieve some record that few will ever hear or even care about. There's a lot of people out there laughing at their F1 team right now though and they would be obviously better served concentrating on that alone.

Unless Honda are just doing this as a publicity stunt of course....

But would one of the biggest companies on earth think of doing such a thing?

Why no Alfons, they care only for the spectacle !!!!!

My arse they do.....


And yet you wouldn't know a real challenge if it kicked you in the arse.

Many of the "biggest companies on earth" missed the biggest motorsports challenge on earth last century when they failed to support Richard Noble's Thrust SSC project.

At least Honda is showing some imagination.

#43 Imperial

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 19:21

Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff


And yet you wouldn't know a real challenge if it kicked you in the arse.


Ah yes, this is why I love forums. It's only ever a matter of time until the personal comments come out! Great that you know so much about me that I do or do not know what a challenge in life is.

I didn't recall that we'd met, my apologies.

Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff

Many of the "biggest companies on earth" missed the biggest motorsports challenge on earth last century when they failed to support Richard Noble's Thrust SSC project.

At least Honda is showing some imagination.


Of course they are, I'm not doubting that at all mate.

It just smacks of bad timing that's all. The first time they went to do this I thought it was a little bit of bad timing and that they really should be getting their heads down and concentrating on the race team.

This time round I would rather say I was gobsmacked they were doing it, considering their F1 team is really in the shit in 2006.

Of course it's imaginative and as far as I recall they are the first F1 team to try such a thing. Good on them in that respect, but a bit silly when their core product (and let's face it, they are a business not a race team, so phrases like "core product" are fair game), the race team, is completely going down the pan.

And if this has nothing to do with the race team then the story has no business being on either Autosport or this "Racing Comments" forum, because speed-record challenges have nothing to do with motor racing.

#44 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 19:37

Originally posted by Imperial


Ah yes, this is why I love forums. It's only ever a matter of time until the personal comments come out! Great that you know so much about me that I do or do not know what a challenge in life is.

I didn't recall that we'd met, my apologies.



Of course they are, I'm not doubting that at all mate.

It just smacks of bad timing that's all. The first time they went to do this I thought it was a little bit of bad timing and that they really should be getting their heads down and concentrating on the race team.

This time round I would rather say I was gobsmacked they were doing it, considering their F1 team is really in the shit in 2006.

Of course it's imaginative and as far as I recall they are the first F1 team to try such a thing. Good on them in that respect, but a bit silly when their core product (and let's face it, they are a business not a race team, so phrases like "core product" are fair game), the race team, is completely going down the pan.

And if this has nothing to do with the race team then the story has no business being on either Autosport or this "Racing Comments" forum, because speed-record challenges have nothing to do with motor racing.


We're discussing it because it's about a Honda F1 car.

But in general speed record challenges do, in fact, don't have much to do with motor racing. For a variety of reasons.

http://www.landracin...opic.php?t=1379

Perhaps either because of the publicity the project has been getting or the fact it has shown some of the cherished concepts of how to go fast on Bonneville to be just myths, you might be surprised at the sniping and jealousy some Bonneville racers have been showing toward the project. Despite the fact the car had to break a legitimate long standing FIA record.

#45 dgsg

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 20:46

Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff


Now that Honda has demonstrated what can be done with what is still recognizably an F1 car, it would be a logical step to consider building on that experience for next year by seeing what can be done with an F1 chassis inside a full envelope body. Assuming tires are not a problem, somewhere in the low 300 mph range should be possible with the chassis and engine they have now.


I would hope so, a Ford Flathead V8 has gone 300! It did have a SC, but my god it was a flathead.
http://www.bluebird-...et/flatfire.htm

#46 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 20:50

Originally posted by dgsg


I would hope so, a Ford Flathead V8 has gone 300! It did have a SC, but my god it was a flathead.
http://www.bluebird-...et/flatfire.htm


It would be hard for any engine in the Flatfire to not go 300 mph.

An informative comparison is a turbocharged Hayabusa engine.

In a motorcycle -- i.e., the Hayabusa -- a turbocharged Hayabusa engine has gone over 260 mph.

That same engine in Jack Costella's "Nebulous Theorem" streamliner has run in the low 300 mph range.

#47 Imperial

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 21:47

Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff


We're discussing it because it's about a Honda F1 car.

But in general speed record challenges do, in fact, don't have much to do with motor racing. For a variety of reasons.

http://www.landracin...opic.php?t=1379

Perhaps either because of the publicity the project has been getting or the fact it has shown some of the cherished concepts of how to go fast on Bonneville to be just myths, you might be surprised at the sniping and jealousy some Bonneville racers have been showing toward the project. Despite the fact the car had to break a legitimate long standing FIA record.


That is quite an interesting thread for me. I suppose the points they are raising, body size, fuel type etc, are things I wouldn't have thought of to be honest.

I did actually think they were basically just setting the F1 car up as best as possible, then slapping a tiny wing on the back (a requirement to still make it technically an F1 car?), but the points raised in the discussion are interesting.

I didn't even realise there was a governing body for such record attempts.

#48 FAUST!!!

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 22:04

Originally posted by Imperial


Ah yes, this is why I love forums. It's only ever a matter of time until the personal comments come out! Great that you know so much about me that I do or do not know what a challenge in life is.

I didn't recall that we'd met, my apologies.



Of course they are, I'm not doubting that at all mate.

It just smacks of bad timing that's all. The first time they went to do this I thought it was a little bit of bad timing and that they really should be getting their heads down and concentrating on the race team.

This time round I would rather say I was gobsmacked they were doing it, considering their F1 team is really in the shit in 2006.

Of course it's imaginative and as far as I recall they are the first F1 team to try such a thing. Good on them in that respect, but a bit silly when their core product (and let's face it, they are a business not a race team, so phrases like "core product" are fair game), the race team, is completely going down the pan.

And if this has nothing to do with the race team then the story has no business being on either Autosport or this "Racing Comments" forum, because speed-record challenges have nothing to do with motor racing.



Since the project started in 2004 when the team was getting very good results, to cancel it due to bad performance today IMHO would further damage and consolidate HONDA on track results . Since all the press releases are very bullish (as always) and they tend to make more show than go :)


I would very much recommend the film " The World's Fastest Indian" with Sir Anthony Hopkins. It really shows how much determination and confidence these record people have. It also shows that you dont need to question your dreams, not even if your time is running out. And it is about an actual person Burt Munro :clap:

#49 scheivlak

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 22:08

Originally posted by Franklin Ratliff


Your knowledge of the context seems so far underwhelming.

For example, you seem to have no concept of how poor the traction on salt is compared to pavement.

Or the fact Bonneville is at an elevation of 4,500 feet.

To complete the picture we also have to acknowledge that the air resistance at this height is far less than at sea level! A thing of some significance for a car that's aerodynamically less than optimal as this open wheeled F1 car is.

And I guess the traction problem is not as big for a flying mile than for a mile with a standing start?

#50 skonks

skonks
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Posted 21 July 2006 - 22:56

Originally posted by Hiatt
Congratulation to Honda for bulding the fastest F1 car in the world, ever! :clap:


Great, let's see if they can pass Q3 now ;)