39 replies to this topic

[Paul Taylor]

Has anyone got a very accurate track map of the original 1960s/70s/early-80s Kyalami circuit please? Preferably an aerial shot from the sky.

[Barry Boor]

This is pretty good, Paul:

http://www.allf1.inf...cks/kyalami.php

[ReWind]

@ Paul:
Is that

[© unknown]
what you are looking for?

[Hieronymus]

The first ever Kyalami's road was not as wide...that's about the only difference from the photo.

Jukskey?????????????????? Never knew there was such a name... (Barry's link)

We'll have a book out on the history of Kyalami, hopefully within this year.

[Crowthorne]

Rewind, Thank you for a great photo. It is a real pity that the original lay-out could not be maintained. Do you have any idea when this photo was taken?

Barry, the flag depicted next to the circuit on the link you provided is considered out of bounds at the southern end of Africa these days - especially at sports events. If caught in public with it one will be considered "persona non grata"!

Hieronymus, any chance of you being involved with this publication?

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Crowthorne
Rewind, Thank you for a great photo. It is a real pity that the original lay-out could not be maintained. Do you have any idea when this photo was taken?

Barry, the flag depicted next to the circuit on the link you provided is considered out of bounds at the southern end of Africa these days - especially at sports events. If caught in public with it one will be considered "persona non grata"!

Hieronymus, any chance of you being involved with this publication?

Isn't that rewriting history? It was the national flag at the time under consideration.

I accept it would be wrong to wave it in public today, but I think it's wrong to try and eliminate it from history.

(Incidentally I am not South African)

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by ReWind
@ Paul:
Is that

[© unknown]
what you are looking for?

Interesting to see that the new circuit seems to have been largely created using what previously look to be access roads

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Crowthorne

Hieronymus, any chance of you being involved with this publication?

No involvement from me. Two books actually from what I heard from different sources. One will be on the history of Kyalami, while the one will be more of a photo/coffee table book.

[Crowthorne]

It was the national flag at the time under consideration .

D-Type, you are absolutely correct.

There was certainly nothing maliciously meant in my comment and it was expressed tongue in cheek. However, as far back as 1992 problems already occurred at a rugby international in South Africa where this flag was waved by South African supporters.

Two books actually from what I heard from different sources .

Looking at the way other tracks have been changed over the years I guess the original lay-out of Kyalami would have been altered anyway by now. IMHO, I still believe the old circuit was much better than the current one. It is quite fitting that publications are now in the pipeline to remind us of the history of Kyalami.

[Hieronymus]

http://www.kyalamipa...alami_info.html


Here is some info on what the area looks like these days.

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
This is pretty good, Paul:

http://www.allf1.inf...cks/kyalami.php

Hmmm, it's ok, but it doesn't look very accurate ReWind's photo is great, but it needs to be a proper track map, really (like the one Barry posted, but more accurate...).

[Hieronymus]

So, what is it that you exactly need ...an "aerial track map"??? We've got an aerial pic here and also a diagram of the layout of the new circuit.

Do you want a diagram of the old circuit with indication of buildings, corners, etc? If so, I'll check my old programmes from this period...

[barrykm]

Originally posted by Crowthorne



Looking at the way other tracks have been changed over the years I guess the original lay-out of Kyalami would have been altered anyway by now. IMHO, I still believe the old circuit was much better than the current one. It is quite fitting that publications are now in the pipeline to remind us of the history of Kyalami.

No doubt about it (to quote Martin Brundle..), the old circuit was far better than the new one, but it quite certainly would have been changed to reduce speed, for FIA purposes at least. Rewind's picture is great but it cannot do justice to the change in elevation around the circuit which added to the spectacle it provided.

[ReWind]

Originally posted by Crowthorne
Rewind, Thank you for a great photo. It is a real pity that the original lay-out could not be maintained. Do you have any idea when this photo was taken?

The photo was published in „Grand Prix international“ magazine # 16 covering the 1980 South African Grand Prix.

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
ReWind's photo is great, but it needs to be a proper track map, really (like the one Barry posted, but more accurate...).

Originally posted by barrykm
Rewind's picture is great but it cannot do justice to the change in elevation around the circuit which added to the spectacle it provided.

Does that mean the both of you want this:

?

[GBarclay]

Originally posted by Hieronymus

Jukskey??????????????????

Minor spelling correction

Jukskei - from the Afrikaans denoting a game similar to horseshoes

I would hazard a guess though that the corner may have been named after a nearby stream (river would be a generous term), rather than the past time.

I'd place the photo from the late 70's. There was significant construction of corporate suites (called Boma's) around the Sunset/clubhouse area in the early 80's. I cannot quite make out the bridge in the main straight. In the 60's and 70's it was a genuine Dunlop bridge looking like a tire. Sometime in the mid-70's it was replaced with a generic bridge with Dunlop signage.

The track as represented in Grand Prix Legends is very accurate, right down to the bump in the middle of Crowthorne.

Grant

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by GBarclay


Minor spelling correction

Jukskei - from the Afrikaans denoting a game similar to horseshoes

I would hazard a guess though that the corner may have been named after a nearby stream (river would be a generous term), rather than the past time.

Yes, this is correct. In Kyalami's case the corner was named after the nearby Jukskei River.

Jukskei is a game/sport, but the original meaning of the word refers to the yoke-pin (I think this is the correct English word) in the day when ox wagons were still the mode of transport.



Some background on Kyalami's history:

The first ever championship race at Kyalami was the Rand Spring Trophy races on 4 November 1961.

Then on 7 October 1967 at the Rand Spring Races the widened and upgraded Kyalami circuit was first used. The circuit now had a minimum width of 36 feet all round and at some places, it was even wider. Circuit was newly surfaced and tarred access roads were also built.

Due to the fact that the circuit was widened to the outside, it had slightly increased the total length of the circuit. Armco railings were erected on the bends. Grandstand was re-erected with two additional stands at Crowthorne corner and at Leeukop. Pit road was also wider and the Dunlop Bridge over the main straight was moved.

[Hieronymus]

Diagram-map of Kyalami circuit from the first championship race on 4 November 1961.

[Hieronymus]

...and a diagram-map from the 7 October 1967 Rand Spring Races. New stands, etc. are indicated.

[Hieronymus]

Article that featured in CAR magazine (November 1966) where upgrading of Kyalami was discussed.

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


...and a diagram-map from the 7 October 1967 Rand Spring Races. New stands, etc. are indicated.

Thanks for the first image...this one won't load, unfortunately, could you re-post it please? Thanks

[rwhitworth]

Originally posted by GBarclay



The track as represented in Grand Prix Legends is very accurate, right down to the bump in the middle of Crowthorne.

...except that it has a barrier in front of the pits, that wasn't there until a few years later. There is a downloadable patch that fixes this, and puts the correct graphics on the Springbok tower, etc.

Can anyone explain to me why Barbeque was so named? Not a very South African word!

[Hieronymus]

Barbeque bend was probably named after one of the "national pastimes" in South Africa, i.e. the barbequeing of meat on open fires.

Spectators at race meetings would bring along their meat and roast it on fires. These days you'll still find it, although they make more use of gas barbeques or charcoal, rather than wood.

Not sure why they decided on the word BARBEQUE. In South Africa everyone knows it as a BRAAI...short for the Afrikaans word BRAAIVLEIS, meaning roast meat.

Barbeque probably sounds more exotic and is easier to pronounce than Braaivleis Corner...for some, anyway.

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor


Thanks for the first image...this one won't load, unfortunately, could you re-post it please? Thanks

That's weird, it works now....thanks for posting it

[rwhitworth]

Originally posted by Hieronymus

Not sure why they decided on the word BARBEQUE. In South Africa everyone knows it as a BRAAI. [/B]

That was my point. A braai was a common occurence at Kyalami. But a barbeque? Never!

Regarding the aerial photograph: late 70s seems a safe bet. It is certainly no earlier than about 1972 because of two features:

1. The earth-works very visible through Esses 2. Previously there was a bank that went very close to the edge of the track, which was cut back as the result of a Jackie Stewart safety inspection and also a fatal motorcycle accident at Esses 1 (refer to Grand Prix Legends for a view of the former earth banks!). The area at one time the flat area was filled with a series of diagonal catch-fences, but these aren't visible in the photograph - so probably late rather than early 70s.

2. Dotted lines visible down the middle of the straights which were introduced to separate the slow from the fast cars in the 9-hour race. Again I don't know the exact year, but it was around that time.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by rwhitworth


1. The earth-works very visible through Esses 2. Previously there was a bank that went very close to the edge of the track, which was cut back as the result of a Jackie Stewart safety inspection and also a fatal motorcycle accident at Esses 1 (refer to Grand Prix Legends for a view of the former earth banks!). The area at one time the flat area was filled with a series of diagonal catch-fences, but these aren't visible in the photograph - so probably late rather than early 70s.

What fatal motorcycle accident was this? Do you perhaps recall?

I immediately thought of Johan Boshoff but that was in 1977 and I think crashed at Sunset. Kyalami was not much of a "killer", although it is notorious for the fatal accidents of Revson and Pryce.

[rwhitworth]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


What fatal motorcycle accident was this? Do you perhaps recall?

I have only the haziest of memories of this one - as I wasn't there at the time, and I only remember it being discussed by my school mates, which dates it at 1969 to mid-1971. As I heard it, someone went straight on at Esses 1. But I have no other detail than that.

The only other fatality that I know of in that era was in practice for the 9-hour in 1972 or 73, when a Mini hit a flash-flood after dark, and went into the barrier at Crowthorne. Again, unusually I wasn't there (I attended at every opportunity at that time) - but my father was on duty with radio comms at a different part of the circuit.

Revson and Pryce were after I moved back to the UK - so I was fortunate never to have witnessed a fatality. I remember Scarfiotti being lifted out of his car in 1968 suffering from burns, and I was there for the Charlton / Hawthorne / Regazonni / etc incident in 1973.

[GBarclay]

The bike accident in the Esses is maybe too early for me to recall.

I was at the track when there was a fatal bike accident up at Leeukop (Westbank). It involved one of the brothers of a biking family. Cannot remember the name now, one of the younger brothers ended up making a career of mountain biking in the USA. I still remember the day well, cold and wet, I spent much of the day keeping warm with a young lady beneath the stands.

That may have been the last race when there were still any catch fences at the track. I think the rider's helmet caught one of the posts, after contact on the track.

The fisrt GP I can recall going to was the 1972 F1 race, we sat down near Crowthorne. In the years to follow, I watched races there, camped there, cycled around the track, drove around the track, raced there, and instructed there. The "new" circuit could never replace the original and the developed business park there now will be the certain end of the track eventually.

[zakeriath]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


I immediately thought of Johan Boshoff but that was in 1977 and I think crashed at Sunset. Kyalami was not much of a "killer", although it is notorious for the fatal accidents of Revson and Pryce.

Johan Boshoff crashed at Jukskei. It was on a saturday morning, at an open practise day (which was a regular occurance at Kyalami on non race day saturdays). The accident happened right in front of me, he just appeared to go straight on and cartwheeled over the crash fencing and straight into the contcrete wall.

It took an age to get marshalls and an amubulance there. I think he died later in hospital.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by GBarclay

I was at the track when there was a fatal bike accident up at Leeukop (Westbank). It involved one of the brothers of a biking family. Cannot remember the name now, one of the younger brothers ended up making a career of mountain biking in the USA. I still remember the day well, cold and wet, I spent much of the day keeping warm with a young lady beneath the stands.

That may have been the last race when there were still any catch fences at the track. I think the rider's helmet caught one of the posts, after contact on the track.

This was Keith Petersen's accident.


re. Johan Boshoff
Yes, Bossie had his accident at Jukskei. Thought about it again. He only broke his leg quite badly, but then he suffered a similiar fate as poor Ronnie Peterson. Blood-clot. Died about a week after the accident. Boshoff was one rider that could have gone far on the international scene, if he just had proper backing.

Johan was riding his Yamaha OW31 (750cc). It was claimed that this was the world's fastest bike at the time. Top speed 300km/h.

I know of two other fatalities at Kyalami. Zunia "Smith" was killed circa 1965 when his car caught fire on the straight. Then there was a young chap with the surname of Richards that restored the Porsche Carrera of Ian Fraser Jones (ex Dawie Gous). He was apparently killed in his first ever race and on the first lap of that race.

[Rembrandt0]

I posted this today on Kyalami on another thread (http://forums.autosp...y=&pagenumber=3)

Originally posted by Rembrandt0
While traveling down memory lane I game accross this posting about the Formula 1 race at Kyalami 1981. I can't remember what the newspapers said about the official status of the race and about championship points but I was there and I knew it wasn't counting for the championship. I've taken some photo's from the Dunlop bridge over the start/finish straight. The circuit was still clockwise then. I also got a pic of South African Desiré Wilson going off in Wesbank corner in her Williams. Lotus raced with their silver with red lettering Essex sponsored cars, ugly compared to the black and gold of the JPS Lotus, still the most beautiful F1 cars. I wish I knew where those photo's are now. That was the very first Formula Grand Prix race I was at. I had to wait 12 years for the next one, the race at Kyalami of 1992. I was there as well the next year and the next race I attended after that was Spa Francorchamps 2001 after I moved to the Netherlands.

[ghinzani]

Looking at the WSB today they have really changed Kyalami havent they!

[Duc-Man]

I found yesterday this site with the the track layouts of the old and the new track:
http://www.silhouet....ks/kyalami.html

And here is a shot of todays track:

[bradbury west]

No involvement from me. Two books actually from what I heard from different sources. One will be on the history of Kyalami, while the one will be more of a photo/coffee table book.

Once again, and without any apology, I recommend Sunset On Kyalami as a brilliant picture/race record/results book of Kyalami in the 60s, using original shots from the period scrutineer, with good race summaries and details of entrants and results. A4 landscape format with many shots full page and in colour. Highly recommended. I believe a further volume is due for the 70s.
Usual disclaimers
Roger lund

[nmansellfan]

Can anyone lay their hands on altitude and corner radiuses for the original Kyalami circuit? I'm thinking about recreating the '67 track in the Grand Prix Legends simulation more accurately than the track that came with the sim (while it is very very good it is slightly inaccurate in places - it is too short in length, Jukskei is in the wrong place, Barbecue is too tight, and the width was based on the circuit after the modifications for the 1968 SAGP). I've been playing around with the Google Earth images of the circuit as it is today, and Google Earth Pro will apparently let me measure radiuses, but obviously only of what remains of the original circuit! I.e. Jukskei to the exit of the Esses, and a tiny bit of Leeukop that remains (about a 15m section in the wasteland between the track and the business park - there are pictures on one of the Kyalami Facebook pages).

Every resource I can find on the internet seems to show that the Esses were rebuilt as more sweeping when the circuit was rebuilt after 1987 - possibly because contemporary track maps (such as the great ones that Hieronymus posted earlier in this thread, and the ones that are on racingsportscars.com) draw the Esses too tight. Overlaying these track maps and the GPL track layout and calculating the length of each and comparing modern onboard laps with the onboard laps of Clay Regazzoni in 1980 and Alain Prost in 1982 made me think that that the Esses had never changed, and then when I saw the small section of Leeukop it convinced me completely.

So armed with this data so far, as many pictures as I can find of the track from '61-67, and the willpower (at the moment) to learn how to create a track in GPL - a right pain in the butt to do compared to other sims - i'm gonna give it a go. So any data on the circuit over and above whats posted here would be great! Thanks.

[cheapracer]

to learn how to create a track in GPL - a right pain in the butt to do compared to other sims - i'm gonna give it a go.

No need to learn, just mod the existing GPL track to suit.

[nmansellfan]

No need to learn, just mod the existing GPL track to suit.

That was my original plan, cheapracer, but GPLTrk doesn't load existing .trk files - but I know you released the excellent Moncane, so I guess there are ways to edit the existing tracks... Could you let me in how i could edit Kyalami's .trk? (I have no intention of cheating online from it, by the way!)

[zakeriath]

The evolution of the track



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[rwhitworth]

The only other fatality that I know of in that era was in practice for the 9-hour in 1972 or 73, when a Mini hit a flash-flood after dark, and went into the barrier at Crowthorne. Again, unusually I wasn't there (I attended at every opportunity at that time) - but my father was on duty with radio comms at a different part of the circuit.

I am reading Andre Loubser's book, which confirms the above. The driver was Brian Ferreira, and it happened in 1972.

[Jeff Weinbren]

Further to the above post, I was led to believe, by Puddles Adler co-driver of Phil Porter's Celica that Porter actually rear ended Ferreira's Mini causing it to catch fire. Very unfortunate.

[PayasYouRace]

Shame seeing threads like this pop up and all the original images have disappeared. 

 

 

Every resource I can find on the internet seems to show that the Esses were rebuilt as more sweeping when the circuit was rebuilt after 1987 - possibly because contemporary track maps (such as the great ones that Hieronymus posted earlier in this thread, and the ones that are on racingsportscars.com) draw the Esses too tight. Overlaying these track maps and the GPL track layout and calculating the length of each and comparing modern onboard laps with the onboard laps of Clay Regazzoni in 1980 and Alain Prost in 1982 made me think that that the Esses had never changed, and then when I saw the small section of Leeukop it convinced me completely.

 

 

I'm glad someone brought this up as I had been thinking the same thing.