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Indy - Why not run the full oval?


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#1 lordy

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:04

I noticed a small article in F1 Racing, that Sam Michael had been asked about running the full oval instead of the infield circuit. SM indicated it would be technically no problem, and quite a challenge to set the cars up correctly.

Wouldn't that be a fantastic spectacle for F1, particularly if the US gets a 2nd, West Coast GP. It would require a how different skill set of the drivers to race on the oval.

Indy is so steeped in history, and the location has such character, why not make the most of it, instead of the insipid circuit they curently use? An oval GP at Indy would become as unique an event as Monaco. Fantastic!

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#2 Tomecek

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:12

:confused:

We have IRL there a lot :)

#3 Ilaya

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:13

Luckily this will never happen, I particulary donot look forward to seeing the current F1 cars on an OVAL.

#4 Dudley

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:15

The full oval would be a mistake in these cars, it would be easy flatout at any speed.

However, I would honestly like to see them run a 1 - 1.5 mile oval. It's a skill and the world champion driver should have it.

#5 HoldenRT

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:17

I agree it would be good.

Sadly the snobbery of the Euro's (no offense Euro's) would prevent it from happening, because F1 doesn't need to cheapen itself to become a cheesy amatuerish show on an oval.

But it would be great to see the cars out of their element. The long almost non stop full throttle times would put unbelievable strain on engines. It'd be curious to see how the teams approached it.

The control tyre wouldn't be a problem in terms of being too aggressive with sidewalls.

The wing levels would be interesting too.

They'd probably need a test session and for a fly away race like that would be unusual for F1.

I think there'd have to be some changes to the rules, for it to work. With 1 engine being allowed for that one weekend only. The test session like I said so the teams could be at least a little familiar with it.

At first it might be a joke. Crashes, or large pace differences. But after a few years, I think it really would add to F1. Unique races are good. Monaco is good. Too many tracks are similar. This would really break the mold. We would see side by side, overtakes with tbe best cars and drivers in the world etc

Sadly, all those things I mentioned, I don't think there would be a chance of it happening even if everyone really wanted it to happen. But after a few years experience, it'd be great to see. Don't think Ralf would do very well. :lol:

#6 HoldenRT

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:23

The full oval would be a mistake in these cars, it would be easy flatout at any speed.


Are you sure? The control tyre would probably be grooved still (maybe not) but it'd be a hard compound. The teams would look for the quickest way around the track and I would have thought the quickest way around the track would be to run a Monza or even more streamlined aero kit. I don't follow Champ cars and IRL close enough to know the speeds they reach at Indy, but I would of thought that with that type of aero, some lifting would be required for the corners. It's not like they could take the corners at 360km's an hour or am I wrong?

#7 Don Speekingleesh

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:28

Sam Michael said they'd need a new aero kit too.

(Slicks are back in 2008)

#8 lordy

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:31

The fact that it would be completely flat is irrelvant. It is the spectacle of seeing the cars out of their natural habitat, and seeing the drivers drifting, and using different 'grooves' around the oval. It would be a cracking spectacle.

#9 Ilaya

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:32

Gladly the common sense of the Euro's (no offense Euro's) would prevent it from happening, because F1 doesn't need to cheapen itself to become a cheesy amatuerish show on an oval. ;)

#10 cavallinö

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:33

No

Just NO

:mad:

#11 HoldenRT

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:39

Bloody Euro's :lol:

#12 Spunout

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:53

Gravel track would be cool, too :D

#13 HBoss

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:54

It really wouldn't be that exciting.

#14 CaptnMark

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 12:10

How about this: every driver can run up to 10 laps on the oval.

#15 Ninja2b

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 12:47


How about we make F1 do a round of the WRC as well? Championshiop drivers should have that skill too surely? And maybe we could have a round at a drag strip? And an autotest! That is obviously what F1 needs....

But yeah, its obviously just european snobbery that is preventing this. Damn Euros...... why can't F1 be more American????


#16 Dudley

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 13:03

Originally posted by HoldenRT


Are you sure? The control tyre would probably be grooved still (maybe not) but it'd be a hard compound. The teams would look for the quickest way around the track and I would have thought the quickest way around the track would be to run a Monza or even more streamlined aero kit. I don't follow Champ cars and IRL close enough to know the speeds they reach at Indy, but I would of thought that with that type of aero, some lifting would be required for the corners. It's not like they could take the corners at 360km's an hour or am I wrong?


The IRL cars are massively slower round most circuits than F1 and even they are flat out at 360kmph in the corners at Indy.

#17 HoldenRT

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 14:16

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Ninja2b

How about we make F1 do a round of the WRC as well? Championshiop drivers should have that skill too surely? And maybe we could have a round at a drag strip? And an autotest! That is obviously what F1 needs....

But yeah, its obviously just european snobbery that is preventing this. Damn Euros...... why can't F1 be more American????


Your sarcasm is a bit exaggerated. The cars already run on a quarter of the oval. And rallying on the gravel is an important part of F1. Ask Kimi. :lol:

It's not like ovals are completely American, Monza had an oval did it not?

#18 Dudley

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 14:29

Ovals are a paved circuit just like any others, it just has a slightly different shape than some others and it could be run on the same cars with the same tyres.

To compare that to running a dirt round is somewhat silly.

#19 Ali_G

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 15:05

There is one big big problem.

F1 cars are not built to be driven around ovals at such high speed and hence are not designed to be crashing on ovals.

I would imagine that all the cars would have to be redesigned so that they would be safer on ovals.

There might also be the problem of running NA Engines on Ovals due to the airintake being up so high. I believe that IRL cars still have some problems in regards to this.

To combat too fast speeds F1 could always go down the CART route and use a standard slower rear wing such as the Handford device ?

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#20 Ninja2b

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 15:13

Originally posted by HoldenRT
Your sarcasm is a bit exaggerated. The cars already run on a quarter of the oval. And rallying on the gravel is an important part of F1. Ask Kimi. :lol:

It's not like ovals are completely American, Monza had an oval did it not?


Seemed like a good time for exaggeration :) True the cars do already run on a quarter of the oval, but its really just one high speed banked corner. To run on a full oval would be very different. To me its not what F1 is about.

#21 Freek987

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 15:16

No, too boring to watch a car justo go around and turn left :down:

#22 BorderReiver

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 15:28

You'd have a pack of drivers unused to constant racing in close quaters, in cars not designed to withstand the immense impacts that can occur on an oval.

It'd be a bloodbath.

#23 Ali_G

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 15:32

Originally posted by BorderReiver
You'd have a pack of drivers unused to constant racing in close quaters, in cars not designed to withstand the immense impacts that can occur on an oval.

It'd be a bloodbath.


Even on the smallest level it wouldn't be feasible. Their necks take enough of a battering at Interlagos and Imola. Imagine the immense left side forces on necks for 400 to 500 miles at the intense sideward g's you'd expierience on an oval.

#24 Lada Lover

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 15:56

What aboot parallel parking? Can't find Reverse? No soup for you!

#25 fumes

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:02

Full oval? YES! On tricycles. SPEC tricycles! We'll finally know who's fastest in identical machinery.

#26 Mauseri

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:03

Originally posted by Ali_G


Even on the smallest level it wouldn't be feasible. Their necks take enough of a battering at Interlagos and Imola. Imagine the immense left side forces on necks for 400 to 500 miles at the intense sideward g's you'd expierience on an oval.

Maybe they should race on such tube as in kids' toys. Rolls and loops and flat out all time no need to steer. Downforce takes care of the upside down part.

:rolleyes:

#27 Ali_G

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:06

Originally posted by micra_k10

Maybe they should race on such tube as in kids' toys. Rolls and loops and flat out all time no need to steer. Downforce takes care of the upside down part.

:rolleyes:


Well I'm sure that the drivers would need training in driving ovals due to the chance of neck injuries.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Senna had some small neck injuries after Interlagos in 1991.

#28 BorderReiver

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:10

I'd be less worried about their necks, and more worried about the fact that the majority of those racing at over 200mph near concrete walls had never been in a pack before, hemmed in on all sides by other cars, for 2 hours.

#29 Ali_G

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:12

Originally posted by BorderReiver
I'd be less worried about their necks, and more worried about the fact that the majority of those racing at over 200mph near concrete walls had never been in a pack before, hemmed in on all sides by other cars, for 2 hours.


Quite right. if the drivers think the walls at Montreal are bad, can't imagine what they'd think of an oval.

Oval race would prob require 33 cars, so each team would prob have to enter a third car as you need a lot more cars on an oval to keep the racing entertaining.

#30 Ilaya

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:14

Originally posted by HoldenRT
It's not like ovals are completely American, Monza had an oval did it not?


Although I strongly oppose any F1 car near whatever oval nowadays, I must concur that early racing in Europe was on ovals as you say.

Check Brooklands , Montlhéry and indeed Monza .

There is a nice book on some of those forgotten circuits it is called Autodrome

#31 Corners

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:15

Originally posted by Dudley
The full oval would be a mistake in these cars, it would be easy flatout at any speed.

However, I would honestly like to see them run a 1 - 1.5 mile oval. It's a skill and the world champion driver should have it.

Of course it wouldn't be flat out, they only take the banked corner flat out now because they need some downforce for the infield.
The required downforce to go flat out around the bends with seriously compromise speeds down the straights, the best way is huge speed on the straights slow down a bit for the bends no matter what the mechanical grip is. And with 20,000 rpm they would be doing 230mph then 210 around the bends.

#32 Alien

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:50

Originally posted by Dudley
The full oval would be a mistake in these cars, it would be easy flatout at any speed.

However, I would honestly like to see them run a 1 - 1.5 mile oval. It's a skill and the world champion driver should have it.


Uhm not really, they would unload the wings so that the speed increases, Anyways i would think it would be too dangerous, the cars would be too fast, the drivers are not familiar with those traffic conditions.

#33 Alien

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 16:51

Originally posted by HBoss
It really wouldn't be that exciting.



Well certainly more exciting than it is now

#34 stevewf1

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 17:23

Originally posted by HoldenRT

It's not like they could take the corners at 360km's an hour or am I wrong?


In 1996, Arie Luyendyk did a practice lap of 239.260 mph (37.616 seconds). That's the average speed. I remember he said he had one or two "tows" on that lap but still, he did the time...

I don't know what the top speed was, but it's probable that he cranked into turn 1 going more that 240 mph... :eek:

#35 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 18:05

Originally posted by BorderReiver
I'd be less worried about their necks, and more worried about the fact that the majority of those racing at over 200mph near concrete walls had never been in a pack before, hemmed in on all sides by other cars, for 2 hours.

The only time you're hemmed in on all sides by other cars at Indy is at the start of the race. Pack racing in IRL happens on tracks like Texas, and even there it's only due to mandated minimum wing angles. Without artificial rules, differences in handlings (which get magnified on an oval) separate out the cars.

#36 Franklin Ratliff

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 18:17

Originally posted by lordy
I noticed a small article in F1 Racing, that Sam Michael had been asked about running the full oval instead of the infield circuit. SM indicated it would be technically no problem, and quite a challenge to set the cars up correctly.

Wouldn't that be a fantastic spectacle for F1, particularly if the US gets a 2nd, West Coast GP. It would require a how different skill set of the drivers to race on the oval.

Indy is so steeped in history, and the location has such character, why not make the most of it, instead of the insipid circuit they curently use? An oval GP at Indy would become as unique an event as Monaco. Fantastic!


Clockwise instead of counterclockwise.

Unlike Daytona or Talladega, Indy has discreet turns.

Indy also has much flatter banking.

#37 Hyatt

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 18:49

Originally posted by lordy
An oval GP at Indy would become


BOOOOORING!

#38 Dudley

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 20:02

Originally posted by Ali_G
There is one big big problem.

F1 cars are not built to be driven around ovals at such high speed and hence are not designed to be crashing on ovals.


On a 1-1.5 mile oval they would be doing absolutely nothing they don't do elsewhere.

It'd be a bloodbath.


Bullshit.

Even on the smallest level it wouldn't be feasible. Their necks take enough of a battering at Interlagos and Imola. Imagine the immense left side forces on necks for 400 to 500 miles at the intense sideward g's you'd expierience on an oval.


You'd still only be doing a 200 miles on an oval.

And are you seriously telling me you think the average Nascar driver is fitter than the average F1 driver?

I'd be less worried about their necks, and more worried about the fact that the majority of those racing at over 200mph near concrete walls had never been in a pack before, hemmed in on all sides by other cars, for 2 hours.


They would be absolutely fine, they're professional racing drivers. Most ovals aren't as busy as you seem to think.

Actually watch an IRL race on a normal 1-1.5 mile oval before you comment.

Oval race would prob require 33 cars, so each team would prob have to enter a third car as you need a lot more cars on an oval to keep the racing entertaining.


Neither IRL nor CART have more cars than F1 on a regular weekend.

Of course it wouldn't be flat out, they only take the banked corner flat out now because they need some downforce for the infield.
The required downforce to go flat out around the bends with seriously compromise speeds down the straights, the best way is huge speed on the straights slow down a bit for the bends no matter what the mechanical grip is. And with 20,000 rpm they would be doing 230mph then 210 around the bends.


You'd lose 20mph if you were flat, and IRL cars ARE flat the entire way round the circuit.

The only time you're hemmed in on all sides by other cars at Indy is at the start of the race. Pack racing in IRL happens on tracks like Texas, and even there it's only due to mandated minimum wing angles. Without artificial rules, differences in handlings (which get magnified on an oval) separate out the cars.


Exactly. It's abundantly clear that a good deal of the posters here have watched about 10 seconds of Nascars at Daytona and somehow think they're oval experts.

#39 Ali_G

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 20:48

Dudley.

A NASCAR driver drives 30 times on an anticlockwise circuit 30 times a year.
An F1 driver drives 3 times on an anticlockwise circuit 3 times a year.

Big difference.

F1 drivers necks just aren't used to driving anticlockwise, nor mind doing it for 200 laps on an oval where you expierience extra g's.

Its not a fitness element.

Just hear about all the F1 drivers going on about their necks after the Brazilian GPs ever year.

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#40 Corners

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 21:03

Originally posted by Ali_G
Dudley.

A NASCAR driver drives 30 times on an anticlockwise circuit 30 times a year.
An F1 driver drives 3 times on an anticlockwise circuit 3 times a year.

Big difference.

F1 drivers necks just aren't used to driving anticlockwise, nor mind doing it for 200 laps on an oval where you expierience extra g's.

Its not a fitness element.

Just hear about all the F1 drivers going on about their necks after the Brazilian GPs ever year.


So what about those huge headrests they use in nascar and indycars you haven't mentioned them ? Also don't you think F1 driver are used to taking left-handers ? When was the last time you saw an F1 driver with no muscle on the left side of his neck and loads on the right side ?
My point ? All a bit exaggerated this as usual.

#41 BorderReiver

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 23:50

Originally posted by Dudley


Actually watch an IRL race on a normal 1-1.5 mile oval before you comment.


Watched them, raced on them. Sticking a load of drivers, very few with oval racing experience, in (comparativly) flimsy cars, and making them racing each other . . .

Well, it would be amatuer hour, it would make Indy Lights look like the pinnacle of the sport.

At the very least from the safety point of view, no F1 car, with their current safety regulations, should be allowed on a super-speedway. The IRL is lethal enough, and they are purpose built.

#42 Statesidefan

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 00:13

Originally posted by BorderReiver


Watched them, raced on them. Sticking a load of drivers, very few with oval racing experience, in (comparativly) flimsy cars, and making them racing each other . . .

Well, it would be amatuer hour, it would make Indy Lights look like the pinnacle of the sport.

At the very least from the safety point of view, no F1 car, with their current safety regulations, should be allowed on a super-speedway. The IRL is lethal enough, and they are purpose built.


Precisely. :up: Not to start a flame war here but I don't think many of these guys whould do very well at actually RACING. That is what is happening on an oval almost constantly. All of these guys are quick, but how many are actually racers? I don't think many would have the stomach or the skill set for it.

#43 Spunout

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 00:37

I don´t buy these "amateur hour" comments at all. Assuming they would get proper testing, of course. Montoya, Zanardi and Mansell aren´t the only ones who moved to ovals and did pretty good from the word go. With that been said, F1 cars aren´t designed for ovals. AFAIK even the American open wheel series use different chassis for ovals, not to mention wings, etc. The safety would be very bad, high-speed impact to the wall would most likely have tragic consequenses.

Precisely. Not to start a flame war here but I don't think many of these guys whould do very well at actually RACING. That is what is happening on an oval almost constantly. All of these guys are quick, but how many are actually racers?



Pretty much all of them. Right now we don´t have "hopeless cases" in the grid (Yamamoto is unproven, though). The fact that F1 lacks wheel-to-wheel racing doesn´t mean they cannot do it, or haven´t done it before moving to F1.

I don't think many would have the stomach or the skill set for it.



While the challenge of ovals shouldn´t be underestimated, I don´t agree with this. What they lack is experience. Throwing them to the oval without testing would be ridiculous of course, but that would hardly happen anyway.

All this is speculation of course, since F1 racing on Indy oval is not going to happen.

#44 BorderReiver

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 00:57

Testing on an oval doesn't simulate a race though, not in any way. Unless you happen to be testing with 20 other guys at once, and all of them trying to finish first . . .

Popping fast laps in on an oval is a very, very, very different prospect to actually racing on one.

#45 Melbourne Park

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 01:04

I'd love it. :clap:

Anyone who objects to a procession is not an F1 fan, its what we get now.

F1 cars are immensely safe, and they already go round part of the Indy circuit at speed.

It would be fun to find out about the horsepower issues too: such a race might settle some horsepower arguments.

Nigel Mansell was an old man when he quit F1 to race in the States: he did rather well straight way on the ovals.

#46 Lukin

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 01:12

From a technical viewpoint I think it would be bloody interesting as Sam Michael said. Only having to turn 1 way would introduce so many other options you don't have available for normal circuit racing and it would require a higher level of perfection (I would imagine).

I think it would be very interesting. Though I find practice and qualifying more interesting than the race so that probably explains it.

#47 Spunout

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 09:37

F1 cars are immensely safe, and they already go round part of the Indy circuit at speed.



Well, not really. They are still accelerating there, not to mention they are using high-downforce setup to get around the infield quickly. In full oval race the wings would be dropped (or more likely replaced), and they would go for that turn after the straight. It may be Ralf´s injury resulted from running to the "wrong" direction (no SAFER barriers), and perhaps from rather unusual impact angle, but I really don´t think F1 cars would be safe enough for ovals.

#48 Freek987

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 09:56

It would be too dangerous, with modern F1 technology they would be too fast on that track.
And besides, it`s boring to watch :down:

#49 grg

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 10:08

anything would be better then current indy f1 stupidity.

the worst race by far imo

#50 primer

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 10:20

Originally posted by BorderReiver
You'd have a pack of drivers unused to constant racing in close quaters, in cars not designed to withstand the immense impacts that can occur on an oval.

It'd be a bloodbath.


Agree completely.

I can see on the very first lap someone diving on the inside, driving flat out, having no idea of what line to take and then smashing on the outside. No thanks, the existing "mickey mouse' is bad (very bad actually) but I'll take that to field being wiped out and people ending up in hospital or worse.