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BRM P142 wing car windtunnel model


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#51 Bonde

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 20:21

Ta! April 2001 - is it really that long ago? :eek: It seems like a last saw it a year or two ago!

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#52 scarbs

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 08:43

Again thanks everyone for the input so far.

Last night I took the cross section drawing and cut out the sections to form a skeleton of the car. While the rear end is typical of a ground effect car, with a very narrow chassis bottom and enginegearbox faired-in all the way to the rear of the car. The front end is unusually rounded, the cross section either side of the cockpit is nearer oval compared to the squared raised sections that form the roof the ground effect tunnels Adding endplateskirts to the side of this design would make it appear a very typical wing car from ten years later. What is unusual is the very high scuttle line the top of the sidepods which is nearly at the rear wheel height towards the back of the car, this is partly to accommodate the very high trailing edge of the ground effect tunnel. Most wing cars of the 80s used much lower tunnels.

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Some of the detail in the drawings isn't fully resolved, so I've also redrawn the plan and side elevations to show where the body work was. While my first impression of the NACA ducts was to solely feed the induction system, there appears to be a pair of narrow slanted radiators mounted high up ahead of the engine, perhaps the very large ducts were to feed both cooling and induction, but the drawings detail has been obliterated so I cant confirm. Otherwise there is no obvious intake for the radiators.

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The rear wing was added at a later stage as was the cockpit surround. The rear wing was mounted to two fins extended dup from the rear wheel cut out.

#53 MCS

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 09:06

Originally posted by scarbs
Image


Isn't this the Lotus 88 ?! :D

(the side image certainly bears a close resemblance)...

#54 David M. Kane

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 11:17

MSC:

It is amazing how far ahead of the time the shape was.

#55 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 13:21

Seeing the design sketches and reading the fact that Oliver tested a conventional car with the side pods makes me wonder if that was where the inspiration for the Arrows A3 came from? lookilikee?
The model itself looks uncannily like Mr Stanley whipped the pictures out of the bin many years later, put Rotary watch stickers all over it and stuck Larry Perkins in it.

It is a truly amazing peice of futurism. To fool some fairly trained eyes into thinking it was from a much later era eans that Peter Wright really was a visionary. Usually there are fairly obvious signs of age on a prototype model but this really has none. In many ways this is more advanced than the 78,79 and 80, and has more in common with Gordon Murrays ill fated surface cooled Brabham Alfa -how many years later was that?

#56 kayemod

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 14:11

This is clearly very remiss of me, I should have taken notes & photos at the time. It's tough trying to remember conversations from over 30 years ago, but as the BRM wing car theory was patiently explained to me by Peter Wright, I don't think the aim back then was ever anything more than achieving downforce comparable to rear and nose wings, but with something close to zero drag. I remember being told that no more than a small trim tab at the rear whould be needed, which was more or less what PW & Martin Ogilvie did on the Lotus 88 almost ten years later. As an interesting aside, the model was never really hidden away as far as I remember, and would probably have been seen by many visitors to SM. Among the designers, I can definitely remember were Gordon Coppuck, Ralph Bellamy, Tony Southgate, Derek Bennett, Eric Broadley, Len Terry, Dave Wass, Patrick Head, and there must have been a few other notables. As far as I know, none of them showed much interest or did any experimentation of their own along similar lines. We did some work for Lotus, occasionally on cars but more on boats, another of Chapman's consuming passions for a while. I suppose it's not impossible that ACBC himself could have seen it, but that would have been in the early 70s, so if he did see the model, it clearly didn't make too much of an impression on him at the time, and he would certainly have seen photos like the 1972 Autocourse ad. I don't think that any work on ground effects was even thought about at Lotus until mid-75. Peter Wright was already there, but he was originally hired to help develop a rather complicated vacuum assisted fibreglass moulding process. Don't get me going on that one.

I've remembered something else. Many of the CanAm McLarens, the M6 and the M8 series, incorporated what would now be considered ground effect thinking, especially in the shape of the nose undersides, though as far as I know, no wind tunnel testing was carried out on any of them. At much the same time, Peter Wright was collaborating with Eric Broadley on the CanAm Lola 260, which incorporated no real ground effect elements at all. Most of the front end treatments on that car were real barn-door aerodynamics, and you should have seen some of the test models that never got further than the SM wind tunnel. The point I'm making is that PW was much involved in ground effects thinking with the 1968/9 BRM wing car, appeared to abandon it completely on the projects he worked on after that, and was only brought back to it by Chapman The Visionary in the mid 70s. A lot of work was done by a lot of very clever people, Peter Wright included of course, but I still believe that inspiration for the true ground effect concept as we know it today, came mostly from Colin Chapman's fertile brain.

#57 Rob Ryder

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 19:14

While searching for some information on the P139 I came across this. I hope you may find it interesting...

Alec Osborn - Institute of Mechanical Engineers

#58 MCS

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 20:23

Fascinating.

In all honesty, I'm still coming coming to terms with the idea that BRM had "the wing car" within their realm and cancelled the project. NINE years before the Lotus 78 came to be!

In fact, probably absolutely typical. Some people have an awful lot to answer for...

#59 David M. Kane

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 21:17

When you make a mistake in top-level motorsport it's very hard to find a place to hide. Are we sure money didn't play a big part? Secondly, why did a smart guy like Surtees not see the potential?
Maybe someone needs to ask him, I'm sure he would tell us?

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#60 Twin Window

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 21:26

Originally posted by Bonde

(saves me prodding through the piles)

Ouch! You really don't want to be doing that...

Originally posted by MCS

Isn't this the Lotus 88 ?! :D

My first thought too!

#61 scheivlak

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 22:57

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
While searching for some information on the P139 I came across this. I hope you may find it interesting...

Alec Osborn - Institute of Mechanical Engineers

As I posted earlier (#4) ;)

#62 macoran

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 23:15

Originally posted by scheivlak
As I posted earlier (#4) ;)


I was just about to say......seen it before

#63 Rob Ryder

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 02:26

Originally posted by macoran

I was just about to say......seen it before

Just consider my post as the ESPN Classic version :rotfl: :rotfl:

#64 rdmotorsport

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 09:42

do not think so although I agree it is simular to the Kausan F1 ar but the lines are all wrong it appears to be half sixties half seventies and a touch of eighties mock up, rear end is simular to a P160B (1972 ) Lotus style sides of the early Eighties with Brabham 23 roll hoop (1967 ).Must admit though it as interested me, they was a "ground effect" BRM 230 but this was changed into Can Am spec by Hepworth Racing in Yorkshire for Danny Sullivan to wreck in testing, David Hodgkinson as a very good site on BRM s check it out. Rodney Dodson.

#65 macoran

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 10:39

The ground effect P230.....the "Jordan" BRM in no way looked anything like this design study.

The design study curvaceous all the way round, the 230 looks like the body was built from
plain flat cardboard.

http://members.madas...on/brm-P230.htm

#66 rdmotorsport

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 12:59

probably was, although the last time I saw the tub which is now banana shaped(well not quite) that as of a different material to cardboard...I think! Rodney Dodson.

#67 Bonde

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 21:12

Twinny,

You really have a sick sense of humour! :lol: (...note to self: Beware of synonyms suitable for disgusting pun...)