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Personal photos from the paddock


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#4801 Giraffe

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 17:59

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#4802 retriever

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 18:10

Marvelous pictures.


#4803 Alan Cox

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 18:12

I had no idea that so many models were available as 1/20th kits.

I think most of the ones which John builds in 1/20th scale are from Model Factory Hiro. Well worth studying their list and looking at their detail shots http://www.hiroboy.c...m...e=1&sort=5d
However, not quite as cheap as the illustrious Tamiya range!

#4804 Barry Boor

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 18:12

I wonder if Helen ever heard my Mum's favourite saying, "If you can't fight, get a big hat."

#4805 opplock

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 20:32

I apologise for some repetition amongst Maurice's images


No need to apologise for these fascinating photos.

#4806 mfd

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 20:50

No need to apologise for these fascinating photos.

Agreed - & some of them are bigger than the TV screen  ;)

#4807 Giraffe

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 20:56

Agreed - & some of them are bigger than the TV screen ;)


That is the result of an intermittent fault with Imageshack as all the photos have been loaded correctly. I find it corrects itself eventually, as I am currently viewing them as such. :wave:

#4808 mfd

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 21:06

That is the result of an intermittent fault with Imageshack as all the photos have been loaded correctly. I find it corrects itself eventually, as I am currently viewing them as such. :wave:

#4769 onwards on previous page, Tony? I get the feeling some are duplicated as large & normal

#4809 JacnGille

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 00:21

No need to apologise for these fascinating photos.

+1

#4810 kayemod

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:05

Great pics indeed.

Just wondering who the lady with the hot pants is and was with. Hill?


Maurice was clearly quite taken with her.


#4811 garyfrogeye

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:06

I'm know it's not the case but in the fourth Hotpants Lady with Graham Hill photo, it really looks like his head has been cut out and stuck on an existing photo. It's just the light around his hair.

#4812 SpecialKS

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:31

Wonderful historic pics from a great era of motorsports . Thanks for posting.
:)

#4813 arttidesco

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:52

When did furry animals get banned from the paddock at Silverstone ?

#4814 Giraffe

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 13:42

#4769 onwards on previous page, Tony? I get the feeling some are duplicated as large & normal


Just checked & the pics appear to have re-sized themselves. This is an intermittent problem that I often encounter with Imageshack, does anyone else? :confused:

Edited by Giraffe, 28 November 2012 - 13:43.


#4815 charles r

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 13:49

Maurice was clearly quite taken with her.



The look on Bette Hill's face in the background is wonderful...

#4816 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 15:24

Did the Matra actually race with a bungee cord holding on the airbox?

EDIT: It would appear from photos from another source that it did.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 28 November 2012 - 15:57.


#4817 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 16:03

Yes indeed - here's Amon at the same event:

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#4818 alansart

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 17:25

Yes indeed - here's Amon at the same event:

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Must have been a standard part as Maurice's photo shows the Beltoise car with the same set up.

How would we survive without Bungees and Tank Tape :)

Edited by alansart, 28 November 2012 - 17:26.


#4819 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 18:54

Yes, but I'd die of shame if that was all I could come up with...

Strange, because an friend who rebuilt one of those Matras was full of praise for the quality of the construction. They must have been in a rush when it came to figuring out how to hold on the airbox.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 28 November 2012 - 19:02.


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#4820 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 19:12

Yes, but I'd die of shame if that was all I could come up with...

Strange, because an friend who rebuilt one of those Matras was full of praise for the quality of the construction. They must have been in a rush when it came to figuring out how to hold on the airbox.


Nigel, i don't know if this makes you feel better or worse but the temporary bungee is still firmly in place on a shot i have of the car in the Kendall Tech centre at the season ending US GP.. it's set off by a large piece of 'donkey dick' running the length of the engine but i can't identify what that's intended to cool. i have to admit, even as a teenager i used to find the appearance of those Matra's surprising at times - as oppose to some of the structural engineering on them.

Unfortunately its not my copyright to print nor do i have a link.

Peter

#4821 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 19:19

The MS80 was a pretty tidy bit of kit, if I recall correctly. I'm not really very "up" on Matras - I just thought the bungee rather let them down. Maybe by '71 they had forgotten the influence of Roger Hill and the other Tyrrell boys.

#4822 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 19:24

The MS80 was a pretty tidy bit of kit, if I recall correctly. I'm not really very "up" on Matras - I just thought the bungee rather let them down. Maybe by '71 they had forgotten the influence of Roger Hill and the other Tyrrell boys.


I think that is exactly right - if you compare the 1968 Ms10 (Tyrrell run) alongside the MS11 (works car) then there is no doubt which is the cleaner and neater car. some of that comes from the v12 as opposed to a cosworth, but then again the weslake eagles, and even the centre intake BRM v12's always looked pretty tidy.

Peter

#4823 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 19:28

Comparing the MS120 with the MS80 kind of disproves my "truism" that this year's car always makes last year's car look old fashioned and untidy...

Maybe that's a potential thread... new cars which looked terrible in comparison with their predecessor

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 28 November 2012 - 19:29.


#4824 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 19:43

Comparing the MS120 with the MS80 kind of disproves my "truism" that this year's car always makes last year's car look old fashioned and untidy...

Maybe that's a potential thread... new cars which looked terrible in comparison with their predecessor


an interesting idea - you should do that.

i think the ms120d went a long way towards making the matra concept look neat and tidy again. the ligiers then showed that the v12 was no handicap to producing a neat car.

btw did you spot Nigel Bennet in tyre engineer mode in pic 9 post 4803, next to teh BRM?

Peter

#4825 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 19:47

btw did you spot Nigel Bennet in tyre engineer mode in pic 9 post 4803, next to teh BRM?

Peter


Yes, I had seen that. I was looking for Tony Southgate in the same shot but I don't think he's there. I know they're still great friends to this day.

#4826 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 20:26

Yes, I had seen that. I was looking for Tony Southgate in the same shot but I don't think he's there. I know they're still great friends to this day.


I didn't spot Tony either. Louis Stanley is walking towards the car in the pit lane crowd, and i think that is Tim Parnell to the left of the pic holding the pit board and wearing the natty hat. i am wondering if the guy next to Stanley wearing the glasses is Martin Ogilvie, who would go on to design many great Lotii and be my boss at Tom's GB. He would have been a young engineer with Girling at the time, i believe i have seen in him other 71 pit lane shots, or his double. I will ask him.

Peter

#4827 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 20:49

This is the race where Stewart locked up at the first corner and thumped the bank right in front of the TV camera - quite literally shocking. I'd be interested to know if anyone here can remind us why he crashed.

These shots are great aren't they? I can't wait for the next instalment.

Giraffe, thanks for posting them.

#4828 funformula

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 21:17

This is the race where Stewart locked up at the first corner and thumped the bank right in front of the TV camera - quite literally shocking. I'd be interested to know if anyone here can remind us why he crashed.



Was this at the Daily Express Trophy 1971? Then his throttle had stuck wide open while going into Copse Corner.
That is at least what he wrote in his biography and IIRC this was also described in Ken Tyrrell´s biography.

#4829 Barry Boor

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 21:18

A certain Mr. D. Beard had that Tyrrell head straight for him IIRC.

#4830 Peter Darley

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 22:46

Great pics indeed.

Just wondering who the lady with the hot pants is and was with. Hill?

The photographer with the lady was Victor Blackman, Chief photographer at the Daily Express, so it could be a promo shoot for the paper, seeing their involvement.

#4831 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 23:28

Was this at the Daily Express Trophy 1971? Then his throttle had stuck wide open while going into Copse Corner.
That is at least what he wrote in his biography and IIRC this was also described in Ken Tyrrell´s biography.


Thanks for the info. Later in the year Stewart won the Monaco race without rear brakes. Unusual, atypical lapses in Tyrrell's preparation standards.

#4832 PeterElleray

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 00:01

Thanks for the info. Later in the year Stewart won the Monaco race without rear brakes. Unusual, atypical lapses in Tyrrell's preparation standards.


If you look at the Tyrrell reliabilty record between the late summer of 1970 and early summer 1971 you can see a definate dip. i would put that down to the growing pains of transitioning from a race team to a constructor. We've all been there!

Peter


#4833 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 00:32

Was this at the Daily Express Trophy 1971? Then his throttle had stuck wide open while going into Copse Corner.
That is at least what he wrote in his biography and IIRC this was also described in Ken Tyrrell´s biography.

This agrees with Simon Taylor's report in Autosport.

#4834 David Beard

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:20

A certain Mr. D. Beard had that Tyrrell head straight for him IIRC.


Indeed...

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#4835 funformula

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:02

Did the Matra actually race with a bungee cord holding on the airbox?


At least they were clever enough to see the benefit of the airbox. I wonder why the other teams didn´t copy that much earlier. (Except Lotus who sometimes used a lower mounted airbox the previous year, but that one may have spoiled the airflow to the rear wing)
Tyrrell had made an airbox in early 1971 but only tested it around mid saison on Ceverts car. They were quite surprised that it was such an improvement that they forced him to back off on every single lap so that the other teams weren´t surprised about the much improved lap times.

At the next race in France the Tyrrell´s wiped the floor...

#4836 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:27

I don't think there's any doubt at all about Matra's level of understanding and knowledge, particularly in light of their aerospace background. Unfortunately the execution of this particular installation left a lot to be desired, that's all, and rather badly (& unfairly) detracts from the image they would have liked to project.

The thing to know about airboxes is that it's vital that they seal properly against the trumpets, otherwise a lot of their effectiveness at recovering static pressure is lost. Even nearly 20 years later it was difficult to obtain a decent seal when trying to mount an airbox on an engine whose trumpets had not been designed to accept a proper mounting / sealing tray ( as was still the case with, say, the DFZ). Therefore an elastic retainer like a bungee, which will tend to stretch as the 'box builds internal pressure, is far less desirable than a nice mechanical fixing.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 29 November 2012 - 11:37.


#4837 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:47

When I made the Connew airbox, I almost as much time perfecting the part of it that sat on the trumpets, than I did making the wooden buck for the fibreglassing.

Peter knew it had to seal well and we put soft rubber rings on the base of the box to create a good seal, then the box was held down by four spring clips that connected, IIRC, to mounting points on the cam covers. Although looking at pictures, I can't actually see the clips. We certainly didn't require bungees.

#4838 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:59

That sounds like the typical solution adopted by other teams too. Those springs were pretty high rate - definitely provided a decent force.

#4839 PeterElleray

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:11

That sounds like the typical solution adopted by other teams too. Those springs were pretty high rate - definitely provided a decent force.



The ms 120's that appeared in 1972 used the spring soution, at least on the period shots that i have. oddly, the car now running in historics - which i think must be one and the same car as i believe there was only one 120D tub made -uses TWO bungee chords to secure the airbox...

I think i have read elsewhere that the first version of the high level, over the roll bar matra air box, which appeared during the latter part of 1970, was not sealed to the trumpets and therefroe not creating any appreciable pressurisation, but just collecting less trubulent ( and cooler?) air. (or that was the theory). Although Derek Gardner wasnt the first to use the periscope style airbox, i believe his Tyrrell version was properly sealed - does that make him the first designer to appreciate what was required in period? not sure.

Peter

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#4840 funformula

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 16:51

The ms 120's that appeared in 1972 used the spring soution, at least on the period shots that i have. oddly, the car now running in historics - which i think must be one and the same car as i believe there was only one 120D tub made -uses TWO bungee chords to secure the airbox...

I think i have read elsewhere that the first version of the high level, over the roll bar matra air box, which appeared during the latter part of 1970, was not sealed to the trumpets and therefroe not creating any appreciable pressurisation, but just collecting less trubulent ( and cooler?) air. (or that was the theory). Although Derek Gardner wasnt the first to use the periscope style airbox, i believe his Tyrrell version was properly sealed - does that make him the first designer to appreciate what was required in period? not sure.

Peter


Here is a shot of the Tyrrell airbox. The base plate holes for the trumpets didn´t offer too much space, so I think this air box could probably generate some pressurisation.
http://www.britishra...rell-004-AU.jpg

Edited by funformula, 29 November 2012 - 16:53.


#4841 alansart

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:19

Here is a shot of the Tyrrell airbox. The base plate holes for the trumpets didn´t offer too much space, so I think this air box could probably generate some pressurisation.
http://www.britishra...rell-004-AU.jpg


Similar airbox fitted to the DFV. It bit more substantial than bungees.

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I seem to remember airboxes at the time being held down with spring clips but at the moment can't find any photo proof.

Edited by alansart, 29 November 2012 - 17:20.


#4842 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:10

Alan, your memory does not decieve you. This is what I was recalling as a typical arrangement:

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Copyright unknown

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 29 November 2012 - 18:12.


#4843 alansart

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:27

Alan, your memory does not decieve you. This is what I was recalling as a typical arrangement:

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That's it and I also thought it was on a March :)

We use the same clips on either side of nosecone of the PRS. I was once pushed off at Snetterton's Coram corner and ended up hitting a small bank on the inside backwards. The car stood up on the gearbox and cartwheeled but landed back on it's wheels. The nosecone seemed to swing around the front of the car and got further away as I landed. When I got out the nosecone was still attached by the spring clips but they were now about 3 foot long as they'd stretched as the car went over! Damage was actually fairly light, apart from the Varley which had flipped over and welded itself to the noseframe. The battery was held in place by...spring clips!


#4844 David Beard

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 18:11

I seem to remember airboxes at the time being held down with spring clips but at the moment can't find any photo proof.


BRM P180 (not in a paddock, sorry)

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#4845 PeterElleray

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 18:57

i wonder how the BRM box is sealed against the rearwards facing stay that passes right through it?

peter

#4846 Tim Murray

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 19:15

Here's a detail from a photo I took at the recent BRM Day in Bourne:

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It looks to me as though the airbox is bifurcated and made to fit over and around the stay.

#4847 PeterElleray

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 22:10

thanks Tim

glad to see its not just a big slot open to the wind.

peter

#4848 Giraffe

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:27

Whilst visiting legendary mechanic Ron Bennett's home in Spondon near Derby yesterday (an unassuming semi in the burbs that has hosted the likes of Hulme, Gardner & Amon as overnight guests), I stumbled across these two photos of Ron running this Brabham BT44 and Ensign for Roger Cowman, the driver being Mike Littlewood. Ron tells me that he built the Brabham up from a box of bits, many of them being missing & that they only had one set of wheels as the castings had been destroyed. The owner features in both photos, on the rear wing of the first pic, but I cannot recall his name. I wonder what became of these two beautiful cars?

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#4849 Alan Cox

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 17:15

The owner features in both photos, on the rear wing of the first pic, but I cannot recall his name. I wonder what became of these two beautiful cars?

Possibly Ken Moore, who was listed for some races as the entrant of the Ensign? I can't, however, recall what Ken looks like.
However, this Bonhams' blurb describes the Ensign as being owned by Mike Littlewood at that time (1983/4)
http://www.bonhams.c.../19465/lot/123/

#4850 Giraffe

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 17:15

Thanks for jogging my memory, Alan. It was indeed Ken Moore. :wave: