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Two-stroke Formula Junior (merged)


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#51 David Birchall

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 01:46

Originally posted by RA Historian
Also, Jim Hall won the FJ race accompanying the 1960 Sebring 12 Hrs in an Elva-DKW.


Was that the occasion when Jim Hall appeared on the cover of Sports Cars Illustrated (?) sitting in the Elva with the sun shining through the fibre glass body? Great picture! All the frame tubes etc are visible.

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#52 RA Historian

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 01:52

Yes it was! I remember that cover shot vividly, after all these years, and thought it was a great shot for just the reasons you mentioned. Wow, it's neat to have someone else remember something from 1960 also!

#53 Bonde

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 09:16

Any chance of sneaking a peek at that picture of the translucent Elva? :cool:

#54 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 10:23

Whilst the engine and transmission amidships is clearly ideal, I fail to see how the polar moment of inertia as demonstrated by this car should be such a disaster.
Think of it as throwing a hammer. With the hammer head thrown first it will go exactly where it is pointed, and with all of the steering and power forces going through the front wheels(ie immediately behind the hammer head) as long as the front wheels are well planted this thing would be very controllable in a corner once you had got it to turn, the driver could steer it on the throttle, by the wheel, and very probably by moving his upper body about, which is about the only thing which would noticeably affect the rear adhesion.
With a sedan in this configuration a high roll centre would be a problem, but with this car the roll centre is probably very low.
Polar moment of inertia is only a really big problem when the hammer head is behind the wheels doing the steering or supplying the power. The biggest problem was probably one of front tyre wear.

#55 bradbury west

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 13:43

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RAP
[QUOTE][B]

Formula Juniors ran at The Brands Hatch meeting 3 August 1959. After a "false-start" earlier in the year, I think this was probably the first FJ race in the UK. Unfortunatly the programme does not specify the engine but the entries were
146 Elva Racing team (M McKee) Elva 1090cc dna
147 R W Thornton (Peter Pilsworth) Elva 948cc
148 Scott Bloor Elva 948cc
150 Ian Raby Moorland
151 K Zelenka Virgo 948cc
157 C Scott Macarthur Saxon 996cc

[/QUOTE]

Looking through a pile of old programmes passed to me, I see that Mr Zelenka and the Virgo were entered at a SUNBAC Silverstone meeting on September 5 1959, so he was certainly getting about or perhaps trying to sort the car, as he was entered only in event 11 (halcyon days) a 10 lap Formule Libre race with the usual varied band of entries, including 2 other rare birds, J Saunders in the Victoria Climax, qv Thread, and P M Sims with the Lotus Connaught, presumably the Clairmonte. There was no FJ race at that meeting.

Roger Lund.

#56 D-Type

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 14:20

Could the Lotus-Connaught be a Mk IX or X Lotus sports car with a Connaught engine? I vaguely remember reading of such a beast.

#57 bradbury west

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 16:57

I have already asked Peter Ross for clarification about whether it was the Clairmonte.
You may be thinking of a 2 litre Bristol powered Lotus, such as Mike Anthony's device.
RL

#58 David Beard

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 17:01

Originally posted by bradbury west
I have already asked Peter Ross for clarification about whether it was the Clairmonte.
You may be thinking of a 2 litre Bristol powered Lotus, such as Mike Anthony's device.
RL


Peter will know of course, but I don't think the Clairmonte ever raced as a Lotus.

#59 bradbury west

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 17:08

David, by 1959 the car was probably no more than a nonedescript old racer, perhaps past its best, so the entrant may have called it a Lotus rathernb than being seen as the owner of the aforesaid old racer, of which people may have said, "What??" . In any case the rest of the entries were very much period Sunbac stuff, copy entries availble via scanner if anyone wants it..

BTW The car may have been sold to him as a Lotus.

RL

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#60 Sharman

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 17:23

Hi Roger
Are you still upside down or has somebody turned you the right way up again? That Elva for Mike McKee was supposed to have had a DKW in it but as I've said earlier they were tempremental and did not appear in the UK until Brands on Ice 1959 when two works cars ran one in 1100 section and the other in 1000, both engines DKW supplied by Gerhard Mitter. I too remember a Lotus-Connaught and am sure it was not the Clairemont. Thank you for the pictures, so many I have not yet gone through them
John

#61 bradbury west

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 22:10

Originally posted by D-Type
Could the Lotus-Connaught be a Mk IX or X Lotus sports car with a Connaught engine? I vaguely remember reading of such a beast.


That would be the chassis supplied for that purpose to Mike Young.
Was he the same as Mike Young of Superspeed Anglia fame? Was he related to John Young?

RL

#62 David McKinney

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 22:39

There were several Lotus-Connaughts
John Coombs had a Mk VIII which was later raced by Brian Naylor.
J Turner and one Schofield raced VIIIs in 1957, and Gil Baird in 1958
Coombs also had a MkIX. Chris Meek raced a IX-Connaught in 1958 - same car?
Mike Young's was a MkX

Take your pick

#63 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 11:37

just to throw in another red herring and test your memories, I have been reading about a front engined Lotus-Porsche. First with the correct answer gets a soup sandwich.

#64 Jerry Entin

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 12:58

Posted Image
Here is Alan Connell in his Elva DKW at the 1960 Nassau Speed Weeks Formula Junior event. Alan also owned a Mercedes Benz-DKW dealership in Forth Worth, Texas.
DKW was part of the Auto Union Group, which consisted of Audi , Horch, DKW and Wandererer. DKW won 150 Rally events with their 3 cylinder 2 stroke engine. They were very succesful in Rally events. Not so to my knowledge in Formula Junior events. I can see why the engine was chosen however. Light weigh and very succesful in long distance races. It should have been a natural.
photo lent to site By Willem Oosthoek

#65 RA Historian

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 13:08

Earlier in 1960 Connell raced a Cooper T-52 FJr with a DKW engine. He placed fifth in the July, 1960, 100 mile F-Jr race at Road America. (First overall was Curt Gonstead in an MBM-DKW.)

#66 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 13:11

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
just to throw in another red herring and test your memories, I have been reading about a front engined Lotus-Porsche. First with the correct answer gets a soup sandwich.


I guess the Sabakat comes close to that...

But I hate soup and I hate wet bread, so I guess I hope I'm wrong.

#67 bradbury west

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 15:47

Originally posted by David McKinney
There were several Lotus-Connaughts
John Coombs had a Mk VIII which was later raced by Brian Naylor.
J Turner and one Schofield raced VIIIs in 1957, and Gil Baird in 1958
Coombs also had a MkIX. Chris Meek raced a IX-Connaught in 1958 - same car?
Mike Young's was a MkX

Take your pick


David, many thanks for the update. I was not aware that so many Connaught engines were so readily available and used in period.

I have now heard from Peter Ross, who identifies that Mr Sims was not one of the listed owners in the Clairmonte's log book, so we must assume that is was a Lotus Connaught

Roger Lund.

BTW, I value your review of the Ron Roycroft book. I thought it was good, but I must view it as an interested outsider. I see it as a superb record and quite different, perhaps that is its appeal.
RL

#68 Sharman

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 16:17

Jerry
The DKW did win a couple of races in FJ in 1960 European races but nothing in the really serious events. The only tuner who managed any consistent results was Gerhard Mitter and even he abandoned the uneven struggle, the usual problem was overheating of the middle pot though why this should manifest itself in a 3 cylinder is not readily understandable. Is there something inherently different between 3 cylinder and multicylnder engines?. Saving the obvious of course
John

#69 Jerry Entin

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 16:31

Sharman I am basing my comment on the fact that none of the Elva DKW's at Nassau made it to the finish and I had never heard of them beating the Ford engined cars or BMC ones. In Rally's they seemed very good. Maybe those were special factory motors. I don't know.

#70 Charles Helps

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 16:31

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
just to throw in another red herring and test your memories, I have been reading about a front engined Lotus-Porsche. First with the correct answer gets a soup sandwich.

By coincidence I received this from a friend this morning - close?

The film actor James Dean ordered a new sports racing Lotus through Jay Chamberlain in June 1955. The car was to be delivered without an engine, and Dean planned to fit an Offenhauser engine as used in Midget racing in America since before the war. It appears that Chamberlain located a suitable Offenhauser and Dean gave him a deposit for it. As frequently happened in those days, the delivery date for the Lotus slipped, and Dean decided to buy a Porsche 550 instead. He probably got his deposits back on the Lotus and the Offenhauser engine. James Dean was killed on 30th September 1955 in a road crash in the Porsche. (Curiously the engine from Dean’s Porsche 550 ended up in a Lotus Mark Nine, where it remains to this day).

#71 Bonde

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 22:51

Sharman,

I wonder if the middle cylinder cooling problem may have been due to its being "hemmed in" by neighbouring cylinders on either 'side' and ports perpendicular to those 'sides', whereas the water jackets of the end cylinders at least each had one 'side' free?

A tuning challenge peculiar to the two strokes was the effects on casting tolerances, and hence tuning reshaping without adding material (against the rules, IIRC) on the ports, and particularly on the port orifices in the bores - it's easier to machine and grind a camshaft to close tolerances. Auto Union selected the best engines (all production engines, IIRC, were dynoed prior to installation) for the SP1000 and the rally program - and some may or may not have found their way into Formula Junior.

#72 Sharman

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 11:40

Anders
That is what I meant by the obvious answer, if you take any multi cylinder engine those in the middle are going to be "hemmed in " did the SAAb's suffer from the same problem? Come to think of it why choose 3 cylinders for 2 strokes the Bedford turbo-charged diesel mentioned on another thread was also 2 stroke
John

#73 Bonde

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 12:38

John,

A three-cylinder two-stroke is, I believe, just as smooth and mechanically well-balanced as a straight-six four-stroke (except when idling or engine-braking!). There may be some mechanical limit to a four-cylinder two-stroke in-line engine - I only recall ever seeing four cylinder two strokes in either flat-four or V-four configurations, the number sometimes, sometimes not, including scavenging pump cylinders (i.e. 'non-firing').

SAAB 3-cylinder two strokes worked well in rallying and saloon cars, as did the Auto-Union, and I believe also the Wartburg behind the Iron Curtain - maybe the cooling problem wasn't inherent to the water-cooled 3-cylinder in-line configuration, which has also been used succesfully on motorcycles and outboards.

#74 Greystone

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 13:15

Originally posted by Bonde
John,

A three-cylinder two-stroke is, I believe, just as smooth and mechanically well-balanced as a straight-six four-stroke (except when idling or engine-braking!). There may be some mechanical limit to a four-cylinder two-stroke in-line engine - I only recall ever seeing four cylinder two strokes in either flat-four or V-four configurations, the number sometimes, sometimes not, including scavenging pump cylinders (i.e. 'non-firing').

SAAB 3-cylinder two strokes worked well in rallying and saloon cars, as did the Auto-Union, and I believe also the Wartburg behind the Iron Curtain - maybe the cooling problem wasn't inherent to the water-cooled 3-cylinder in-line configuration, which has also been used succesfully on motorcycles and outboards.


Anders,

All of the early Yamaha four cylinder two stroke racers (TZ700, TZ750 and TZ500) were in line four cylinder two strokes, all water cooled. The main problem with this layout on a motorcycle was where to fit four bulky expansion chambers. The engine was effectively two twin cylinder units on a common crankcase.

Layouts also used were square fours (Suzuki RG500 and some early 500 Yamaha racers) but eventually the V-four became the standard layout for 500cc Grand Prix motorcycles. For road bikes Suzuki adopted the square four (RG500) and Yamaha the V-four (RD500) - a nice bike, I still own one.

Additionally Honda made a V-three 500cc two stroke racer in the 1980's.

Cooling became a non issue once water cooling had been successfully adopted. Towards the end of the 500cc motorcycle GP period, with improved metallurgy and engineering the bikes were as reliable as the diesels that replaced them. (I am a two stroke fan).

Andrew

#75 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 10:44

Will that be with white bread or Brown Charles? :clap:

#76 275 GTB-4

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 12:30

I knew I would find a home for these...

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#77 Sharman

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 12:19

An interesting bit of fiction with the year of inception of the Formula being given as 1957 and Fangio and Salvo said to have started their careers in the Formula, I haven't bothered to read anymore.

#78 HiRich

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 12:20

Originally posted by KJJ
Any biographical detail on Cyril Scott-MacArthur? Was he racing in the DDR in 57 and 58?

Bit of a late response, but so far I have (and this is 500cc racing only) :
1954: Nothing
1955: Nine appearances in the Mackson, all at Brands Hatch. By the process of elimination, this was the BA Manning car, used by him in 1954.
1956: Eight appearances, again in the Mackson, and all in the South-East (Brands & Crystal Palace)
1957: Six appearances. more spread out around the country. 18th August he turns up at the Sachsenring, East Germany (and in the Mackson), but by the 6th October he's back at Brands Hatch
1958: Six events, now in the reworked Saxon 500 (though I've no idea how it was reworked). Again, he attends the Sachsenring (17/08) in the car, but then I've nothing for him or the car thereafter. Clearly for 1959 he converted the car for Formula Junior

Quite what his relationship with the Sacshsenring was isn't obvious. He doesn't appear to have made a "European Summer Tour" as he doesn't appear in any other European results I have. He doesn't appear in the other (bike) races at the Sachsenring. And of the Brits, only Donald Wagner accompanied him in 1957, and George Henrotte in 1958.

#79 r.atlos

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 00:04

Originally posted by Sharman
An interesting bit of fiction with the year of inception of the Formula being given as 1957 and Fangio and Salvo said to have started their careers in the Formula, I haven't bothered to read anymore.

I guess the reference to 1957 is based on the fact that the first Stanguellini FJ has been presented to the (Italian ?) press in Modena in October 1957 - with Fangio doing some demo laps. Those photos indicate also the presence of Colin Davis, by the way.

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#80 275 GTB-4

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 10:39

Originally posted by Sharman
An interesting bit of fiction with the year of inception of the Formula being given as 1957 and Fangio and Salvo said to have started their careers in the Formula, I haven't bothered to read anymore.


So....the fella who loaned the car (maybe) to Brooklands didn't quite have the story straight,,,,but, on a more positive, less derogatory note, what is known about the racing history of the DKW FJ?? :rolleyes:

#81 RTH

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 10:51

Originally posted by David Beard

Posted Image



Just look at the size of that leaf spring.
Looks as if it would be more at home on something made by Seddon-Atkinson .

#82 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 20:05

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
So....the fella who loaned the car (maybe) to Brooklands didn't quite have the story straight,,,,but, on a more positive, less derogatory note, what is known about the racing history of the DKW FJ?? :rolleyes:


Am I allowed to answer this?

Look at the era... what do you find? FJr dominated by Lotus and Cooper and Lola, mostly with Ford engines fitted, though Cooper had a lot of success with BMC power units. If, then, there was any success for the DKWs it would have been very localised and very limited.

I seem to recall there was some success for 2-stroke engines in Scandanavian countries, but nothing in the mainstream.

You need to grow a thicker skin, Mick.

#83 Sharman

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 21:17

GTB 4 I suggest you read the earlier entries in this thread

#84 275 GTB-4

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 02:13

Originally posted by Sharman
GTB 4 I suggest you read the earlier entries in this thread


Did that...but couldn't see anything about the history of this DKW FJ numbered 7...it has obviously been to several countries but was it raced in all of them?

#85 Sharman

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 10:21

GTB 4
It's the usual problem with old racing cars especially those which were produced in largish numbers. Look at the chassis Number 100/34, from 1959, mmmmmmmm. With a DKW in it! They did not appear until Brands on Ice in 1959, and then experimentally with engines provided by Gerhard Mitter. I am trying to find very early Elva Juniors i.e. the first 7 built which apparently went out withut chassis numbers in mid 1959 and all went back to the factory for strengthening. If ANYBODY can help in this search please PM me (It is not about money incidentally) when I'll explain why I'm lookng

#86 BRG

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 21:14

FJ was just before my time so I have never focused much on it, but watching at Donington recently, I noted there were some 2-stroke engines in use.

I believe SAAB and DKW engines were used. Was there any equivalency formula or was it just the same capacity for all? I know that FJ was 1000cc, or 1100cc with a higher minimum weight, so presumably these were 1000cc 2-strokes and had the weight advantage. Can someone educate me on this?


#87 Tim Murray

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 21:42

It was the same capacities for all. The two-strokes had the potential to produce higher power, but had higher fuel consumption and (in the case of the DKW, at least) were difficult to tune and extremely unreliable. There's more discussion in this earlier thread:

Two-stroke Formula Junior

This post from that thread gives some useful contemporary insight from John Bolster:

Looking through an old Autosport with FJ stuff in it, I came across John Bolster's "Formula Junior Prospects" January 22 1960 , after the initial season in 1959, which included his comments on the AU/DKW engine as well as the perceived bhp of the period engines for the new season.


".............
Auto Union ...92 b.h.p.
Fiat ...80 b.h.p.
B.M.C. , .72 b.h.p.
Panhard ...70 b.h.p.
Ford ...70 b.h.p.
Renault ...62 b.h.p.

The Auto Union is a two-stroke, and it is very expensive to buy, simply because some engines will respond to tuning and others will not. One may spend £100 on tuning one of these engines and then have to throw it away. Another apparently identical example may take the tuning, and then you have a sure- fire race-winning proposition. So, a fully tuned German two-stroke will set you back about £425. However, there's another side to this two-stroke lark.

A Formula Junior car with one of these two-stroke engines will consume petrol at the rate of 7 m.p.g. That is immaterial in a Brands Hatch sprint, but long-distance races for F .J .s are a cer- tainty. As this fuel consumption is double that of a full Grand Prix car, obviously the weight penalty is prohibitive with a 792 lb. car, and pit stops will be the only answer. The Fiat engine is the: fastest four stroke so far, because it has an aluminium cylinder head, but as it is a full 1,100 c.c. unit, the higher' minimum weight scale is operative as compared with the usual 1,000 c.c. power plants. I doubt whether the B.M.C. engine will ever produce more than 75 b.h.p. "



I just thought it interesting.


Roger Lund.



#88 D-Type

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 22:04

There was no equivalency formula, the two strokes competed with four strokes on an equal basis.

As Formula Junior was for production-based engines the two-stroke appeared attractive to many because without the restriction posed by valve gear to constrain it the engines revved freely. They were also relatively easy to tune by improving the gas flow.

The SAAB was only 850cc while the DKW (or Auto Union) engine was 1000cc. Consequently the SAAB engine hardly appeared outside Scandinavia. Several manufactures including Elva chose the DKW engine. An Elva-DKW won the first FJ race in Britain at Brands Hatch (I think on Boxing Day 1958). This led to quite a few sales - particularly in the USA. But users soon found that as a racing engine the DKW had a fatal flaw - the centre cylinder tended to overheat leading to unreliability. Hence the BMC A-Series and Ford Anglia engines became the popular choice, particularly the latter.

In the Eastern bloc they had fewer engines to choose from - I think there was only Skoda and the Wartburg 2-stroke, which was related to the DKW. So Wartburg 2-strokes were frequently used there.


Edited by D-Type, 10 October 2013 - 13:01.


#89 David Birchall

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 22:05

It was the same capacities for all. The two-strokes had the potential to produce higher power, but had higher fuel consumption and (in the case of the DKW, at least) were difficult to tune and extremely unreliable. There's more discussion in this earlier thread:

Two-stroke Formula Junior

This post from that thread gives some useful contemporary insight from John Bolster:

Looking through an old Autosport with FJ stuff in it, I came across John Bolster's "Formula Junior Prospects" January 22 1960 , after the initial season in 1959, which included his comments on the AU/DKW engine as well as the perceived bhp of the period engines for the new season.


".............
Auto Union ...92 b.h.p.
Fiat ...80 b.h.p.
B.M.C. , .72 b.h.p.
Panhard ...70 b.h.p.
Ford ...70 b.h.p.
Renault ...62 b.h.p.

The Auto Union is a two-stroke, and it is very expensive to buy, simply because some engines will respond to tuning and others will not. One may spend £100 on tuning one of these engines and then have to throw it away. Another apparently identical example may take the tuning, and then you have a sure- fire race-winning proposition. So, a fully tuned German two-stroke will set you back about £425. However, there's another side to this two-stroke lark.

A Formula Junior car with one of these two-stroke engines will consume petrol at the rate of 7 m.p.g. That is immaterial in a Brands Hatch sprint, but long-distance races for F .J .s are a cer- tainty. As this fuel consumption is double that of a full Grand Prix car, obviously the weight penalty is prohibitive with a 792 lb. car, and pit stops will be the only answer. The Fiat engine is the: fastest four stroke so far, because it has an aluminium cylinder head, but as it is a full 1,100 c.c. unit, the higher' minimum weight scale is operative as compared with the usual 1,000 c.c. power plants. I doubt whether the B.M.C. engine will ever produce more than 75 b.h.p. "



I just thought it interesting.


Roger Lund.


Isn't hindsight wonderful? That Bolster thought that the Fiat would produce more power because it had an aluminium cylinder head is now known to be wrong. And the BMC was finally tuned to produce almost 100 bhp/liter within the FJ period-the Ford even more...There are more reasons the two strokes were not successful aren't there?
Surely his figures for F1 fuel consumption are wrong?

#90 Bloggsworth

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 22:40

We had Paul Rendle's BMC "A" Series on the dyno at Diva's one weekend, in 1964, when Don Sim was away, and at about 98BHP the dyno ran out of water supply.

I drove Tim Moore's front engined Elva DKW, with which he won a Libre race at Debden in 1964, and was told not to use the engine on over-run in second gear, as the harmonic vibration was likely to crack the BMC gearbox tailshaft housing - This may have been an urban myth, but it wasn't my car, so I didn't.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 31 March 2011 - 22:43.


#91 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 04:55

In the Eastern bloc they had fewer engines to choose from - I think there was only Skoda and the Wartburg 2-stroke, which was related to the DKW. So Wartburg 2-strokes were frequently used there..

Only one 2-stroke in fact, the Wartburg 311 and its modified version 312. Škoda engines were the 4-stroke ones.


#92 packapoo

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 05:25

Question asked earlier in the thread I didn't see answered 'BLT'?
Always understood it was bacon, lettuce and tomato.
Maybe I wasn't paying attention.

#93 packapoo

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 05:32

FJ was a series I was never interested in, in period.
I'm realising now just how good it was - there're some beauties racing in historic events in NZ and I lust after a particular Elva DKW.

#94 Cirrus

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:04

Didn't Gerhard Mitter drive a very quick DKW-engined Lotus 18? It would be interesting to see something like that in current Formula Junior.

#95 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:52

Didn't Gerhard Mitter drive a very quick DKW-engined Lotus 18? It would be interesting to see something like that in current Formula Junior.


Apart from Tim Bishop with his Sauter-DKW I don´t think anyone has made any efforts to improve the DKW since the days it raced in period while the Ford engines (and some BMC and at least one Fiat engine) being used today are probably far more powerful than in period. In other words, I have my doubts that a Lotus-DKW would stand much chance in today´s historick Formula Junior racing.

Take a look at the homepage of FJHRA (http://www.formulaju....com/index.html). Under 'FJ Marques', there are pictures and presentations of some of the 2-stroke powered cars.



#96 Sharman

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:54

Didn't Gerhard Mitter drive a very quick DKW-engined Lotus 18? It would be interesting to see something like that in current Formula Junior.

Gerhard had his own design of fwd car initially using a self tuned DKW, rapid but unreliable due to centre cylinder overheating.
So far as I am aware there were no FJ races in the UK in 1958. Peter Arundell won 1959 Brands Boxing Day FJ race in an Elva DKW fastest lap was meade by an Elva BMC. which type had won all previous UK FJ races in 1959.
Bo;ster was over optimistic about BMC power outputs, in 1959 no more than 65 bhp was available while the Fiats had circa 85 with more torque. Elvas were better handling with more roadholding, and, after suspension problems which manifested themselves at the Ring in July, were sorted out, reliable

Edited by Sharman, 01 April 2011 - 07:54.


#97 Roger Clark

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 08:28

an Elva BMC. which type had won all previous UK FJ races in 1959.

Except the combined 500cc/Junior race at Brands Hatch on 3rd August, where the Junior class was won by Ian Raby in a Moorland-BMC.

#98 Cirrus

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:11

In other words, I have my doubts that a Lotus-DKW would stand much chance in today´s historick Formula Junior racing.


I wasn't suggesting that it would be competitive, just interesting...

Here's the Mitter DKW that we ran at Porto in 2005

Posted Image

#99 Sharman

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:29

Except the combined 500cc/Junior race at Brands Hatch on 3rd August, where the Junior class was won by Ian Raby in a Moorland-BMC.

Roger
Look at the entrant, I don't dispute that a "Moorland"(designed by Les Redmond)won, the car was in process of metamorphis from caterpillar to Gemini. So I was wrong about Elvas as the saying goes "you can't win 'em all"
John :)

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#100 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:47

I wasn't suggesting that it would be competitive, just interesting...


I fully agree that it would be interesting. I really wish there were more variation in the present historic formula junior races and not only Loti, Coopers, Elvas and Lolas with the odd Stanguellini and hardly no one-offs or limited-production cars.