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The team bosses & designers - WATN?


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#1 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 19:50

Originally posted by David Beard in the Best Driver to never get an F1 shot thread.
So why do we consistently talk so much more about the drivers, even the eighty percenters, than we do about the machines and the people who designed them?

Well, I hope to have readdressed the balance a bit. If you follow this link you will see a new WATN section devoted to the team bosses; http://www.oldracing...ory=Teamsstarts

This is the newest section to WATN, and one that I hope covers the above, but also moves the site into a whole different area, and certainly, brings it closer to Allen’s focus on the Old Racing Cars site. This new section covers so many famous names not previously mentioned, that are just as integral a part of the sport as the drivers, and of whom there is much interest, both in specific, ie historic motor racing fans, and the general world.

Again, it’s the same process. Instead of number of GP’s (which is near impossible to properly define anyhow), it is the teams they were with.
Perhaps the most “controversial” part of this WATN is “Why are they on ” or “why are they NOT on ”.

What I have done, going by as many resources as I can, but mostly Higham and the 8W page, especially for the more recent years, is to put the team principal & the chief designer of each car/constructor.
But this has been so difficult to define. In some cases the owner, say Genevieve Bugatti, is the “de facto” boss, but has little to do with the whole process. Even this year, with Toro Rosso, do I list Berger? Tost is the principal, Berger “just” an owner. In the end, I put Berger in, and likewise, the same with the designers - it’s such a blurry issue, that I’ve tried to settle on either the technical head of a design team, but it’s not an exact science. I’ve really just tried to compromise as a result.

But I do think most of the more “important” names are here. And this, too, has been fascinating. A real shift back into Europe, which has been frustrating when it comes to many things, but, equally, even more revealing with others.

I’ve only done a project if it’s “worth” something - ie it brings more information than is already available, whether that be via biographical info, or WATN info. And, yep, there’s a lot of gaps, but, by & large, there’s a lot of new information as well.

Again, corrections/additions/questions/comments etc. are very much appreciated , especially as there are some VERY famous names missing information, and I do hope that this section is enjoyed as much as the others.

A few words of thanks. I don’t know whether Allen gets fed up of me thanking him, but it is thanks to his savvy, and of course his site, that I can expand into other areas with minimal effort, and I do hope that a whole host of new names helps the site continue to be a success.

Thanks too, to those who have already helped with queries - Barry Boor, for helping with Peter Connew’s information, DCN over some key figures with Cooper/BRM & KJJ, Adam F & Rewind, as they are known on here, for their research already (and I hope they have many additions for me!), Gabriel Alejandro Engels for some Argentine background, numerous others (too many really to mention) for various bits of information, and in particular, one team & one man that’s on the new WATN.

The one man was Chris Murphy , who happily took the time to answer a few more small queries. The one team was Midland F1 , and their media head Ron Fine, who happily & speedily answered all my queries, despite his & the team’s busy schedule. In both cases, it was, and still is, much appreciated.

Small note - this is the last new section for some time. European F2 is still an aim, but there’s TOO many gaps (all the sections combined have 85% information full - which I‘m pleased with, but won‘t rest until it‘s about 95%), GP2 isn’t relevant enough - yet - Le Mans is too difficult & too large for me to realistically consider every competitor (the Ed Hugus case being a particular example) and NASCAR… maybe, but it’s not a priority at present. Heck, I have about 350 mysteries & 1,250 updates to cause me worry, stress & sleepless nights now!!

Enjoy it!

:wave:

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#2 D-Type

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 20:11

Somethings up with either the site or my geriatric computer - I've been 'timed out' twice.

#3 Rob Ryder

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 20:40

No problems here... nice addition Richie :up:

#4 David Beard

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 21:09

Absolutely brilliant, Richie, please keep it up.

I notice you have Ray Stokoe listed: someone I have been trying to locate. You have him at Williams. I believe he was also at March (see group photo on that splendid March website) and more recently with Malcolm Wilson.

#5 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 21:31

Originally posted by David Beard
Absolutely brilliant, Richie, please keep it up.

I notice you have Ray Stokoe listed: someone I have been trying to locate. You have him at Williams. I believe he was also at March (see group photo on that splendid March website) and more recently with Malcolm Wilson.


Thanks, David. He's listed as Williams only as he was a named designer at one point, but I've found any info about him, since then, sparse. Well, until now!

#6 David Beard

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 21:51

Originally posted by David Beard
I notice you have Ray Stokoe listed: someone I have been trying to locate. You have him at Williams. I believe he was also at March (see group photo on that splendid March website)


Can't find the March photo to which I referred at the moment...but this is interesting...

http://www.marchives...ffice_staff.htm

#7 David Beard

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 22:04

Originally posted by David Beard
[B]

Can't find the March photo to which I referred at the moment [B]

But I have now...

http://www.marchives...onHouse1988.htm

Richie...this should all connect very well with Pete's Family Tree project?

#8 Allen Brown

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 22:06

Apologies to anyone who found OldRacingCars.com timing out.

I've checked the logs and there were quite a few time-outs a few minutes after 8pm (that's 8pm computer time - TNF time too - 9pm BST) and a couple more at 8.35 but it's been ok apart from that.

The site does get the occasional time-out but usually just one or two in a 24-hour period. A new section on WATN gives the poor old server a bit of a clobbering compared with the race results sections of the site which people seem to read more slowly.

Please bear in mind OldRacingCars.com is funded entirely out of my own pocket so I can't justify the amount of hardware that would be necessary to eliminate such glitches completely. So far today there have been only 24 glitches in 14,332 requests.

By the way, damned impressive update to WATN, isn't it? Great stuff Richie!

Allen

#9 KJJ

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 22:23

Great idea and an excellent start. BTW according to the Edwards book "Managing a Legend" Ken Gregory was born 29th July 1926 in Ashton-under-Lyne.

#10 macoran

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 00:09

Absolute brilliant work Richie !!

I haven't had time to study evrything 100% yet, and I don't know where you
intend drawing the line for mentionable personalities...
but ..........I did miss Kees van de Grint..Schumachers tyre guru
and..........I will have to check what Wiet Huidekoper did to maybe qualify.

#11 ian senior

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:20

A fantastic piece of work. I'll be spending lots of time there.

One small nitpicking point - I thought the Christian name of Bellasi was Guglielmo, not Vittorio.

#12 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 08:20

Originally posted by David Beard
Can't find the March photo to which I referred at the moment...but this is interesting...
http://www.marchives...ffice_staff.htm


What a fantastic list of names, eh? A veritable who's who of designing...

Originally posted by KJJ
BTW according to the Edwards book "Managing a Legend" Ken Gregory was born 29th July 1926 in Ashton-under-Lyne


Excellent! Thanks for that!

Originally posted by Macoran
I haven't had time to study evrything 100% yet, and I don't know where you
intend drawing the line for mentionable personalities...


Designers/Team Principals/Team Owners.
I know there's a hell of a lot of notables who are still missing, but I've got to be very careful about opening the floodgates. I think some extra names will come in, probably from the designing point of view as we find some people have been missed out, but that can only be 4-5 at the most.

Originally posted by Ian Senior
One small nitpicking point - I thought the Christian name of Bellasi was Guglielmo, not Vittorio.

Yes, you're quite right. That would explain a lot! :blush:

Thanks for all comments thus far.

#13 petefenelon

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 08:32

Good stuff Richie, I've got a bunch of tweaks that might be of interest, will send them to you tonight.

#14 D-Type

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 10:11

Originally posted by D-Type
Somethings up with either the site or my geriatric computer - I've been 'timed out' twice.

It's working OK now from my desk at work, so I think it must be an 'age thing' - the computer, not the driver ;)

#15 ace woodington

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 19:32

Ray Stokoe work on the March indy Alfa 90c at Colnbrook

#16 Allen Brown

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 19:43

Would that be John "Ace" Woodington, formerly of BS Fabrications?

So John, should we be adding David Polland to the list of F1 designers?

Welcome!

Allen

#17 rateus

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 23:49

Just wondering if one or two of the German F2 entrants from the 50s should be added here. To my mind Ernst Klodwig's rear-engined special (the 'Heck' iirc) or Hans Klenk's eponymous device are at least as much 'genuine' constructors as Eifelland. And didn't Dora Greifzu continue to enter her late husband's car after his death? - not sure if that included Germany '53 though.

If it wasn't so late, I'd trawl through uechtel's marvellous articles on 8W to find out... :yawn:

#18 Bonde

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 00:21

Dave Baldwin designed Van Diemens for the Ford formulae for ages - I wonder if he's still there? BTW, I always found it rather quaint that his RF77 FF looked just like a scaled-down contemporary F1 Ensign (or its Fittipaldi derivative).

#19 ace woodington

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 13:47

Yes I am ACE of B.S.Fabrications
David Pollard worked for me as a Race Engineer more than a designer.
I can't remember what he did before he came to us nor what he did after he left B.S.

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#20 Allen Brown

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 14:19

Hi Ace

Wasn't David Pollard designing a F1 car for you at one stage? I recall Autosport saying that Piquet was going to drive a Pollard-designed B&S F1 car for you in 1979. How far did that project get?

Allen

#21 ReWind

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 20:26

@ Richie: Some additions from my records.

Len Bailey died on 23 June 1997.
Andy Brown was born on 19 March 1959.
Valerio Colotti was born in 1925.
Giovanbattista Guidotti was born in Bellagio, Lago Como.
Mark Handford (instead of Hanford, spelling!)
Günther Hennerici (instead of Henerici, spelling!) has died (presumably around 2001).
Bubbles Horsley was born in 1943.
Dave Kelly was born on 27 February 1951 in Bradford, West Yorkshire.
John MacDonald was born on 12 May 1947.
Jean-Claude Migeot was born in Tours.
Harvey Postlethwaite (instead of Postlewaite, spelling!)
Yoshio Nakamura died in December 1994.
George Ryton was born in Singapore.
Mario Theissen (instead of Thiessen, spelling!)
Alex von Falkenhausen died in Munich.
Peter Wright was born on 27 May 1946.

And two comments:

There are two Bob Bells. „Your“ Bob Bell is the McLaren/Benetton/Jordan/Renault-Bell who isn’t the same as the Rial-Bell.

There are some cases where I have other dates. Two of those are Ken Tyrrell (who I believe wasn’t born in March but in May) and Teddy Yip (who I believe wasn’t born in 1907 but in 1913). Maybe these cases are worth to be discussed.

#22 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 20:50

Originally posted by ReWind
@ Richie: Some additions from my records.

Len Bailey died on 23 June 1997.
Mark Handford (instead of Hanford, spelling!)
Harvey Postlethwaite (instead of Postlewaite, spelling!)
Mario Theissen (instead of Thiessen, spelling!)

There are some cases where I have other dates. Two of those are Ken Tyrrell (who I believe wasn’t born in March but in May) and Teddy Yip (who I believe wasn’t born in 1907 but in 1913). Maybe these cases are worth to be discussed.


Firstly, thanks ever so much, Rewind. :up:

But a couple of things to straighten out.
Harvey's birth certificate spells it Postlewaite - I triple checked that.
Likewise, Hanford & Handford. Again, this was triple checked.

Quite right about Theissen, though, but I'm not the first (or last) to do that!

Checking the information you've given me:-
Len Bailey:- b. 25 July 1926.

Ken Tyrrell:- Death details say: Robert Kenneth Tyrrell b. 3 May 1924. As a result I will change that.
Teddy Yips' came from his website, but that's still debatable as he wasn't renowned for telling the complete truth!

But, as I say, thanks - that's given me a lot to go on now.

#23 ace woodington

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 11:12

Hi Allen

The story about B S building an F1 car for Piquet was just a story!!!

After the Italian G P in 1978 Bernie bought the B S / Piquet drivers contract from us.
Up to then we were trying to decide wether or not we should build our own car as the rules for the 1979 season banned teams that did not build there own cars to try and reduce the number of entries. We decided that our core business of building cars or parts of cars for other people would be hurt if we became a manufacturer. We could have been wrong!!!!!!!!!!


Ace

#24 David Beard

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 18:53

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
Originally posted by David Beard in the Best Driver to never get an F1 shot thread.
So why do we consistently talk so much more about the drivers, even the eighty percenters, than we do about the machines and the people who designed them?

Well, I hope to have readdressed the balance a bit. If you follow this link you will see a new WATN section devoted to the team bosses; http://www.oldracing...ory=Teamsstarts


I thought this thread was worth a bump...but the link doesn't seem to work now, Richie. Are you still pursuing this one?

#25 David Beard

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 18:56

Originally posted by David Beard
I notice you have Ray Stokoe listed: someone I have been trying to locate.


Still wishing to contact this chap :)

#26 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 19:39

Originally posted by David Beard


I thought this thread was worth a bump...but the link doesn't seem to work now, Richie. Are you still pursuing this one?


Constantly. Try http://www.oldracing...?Category=Teams

The updates keep coming in - Ken Sears is one I've just solved, to some degree of pleasure.

I still have many mysteries I want to fill in on it - some of them really big names - Ted Toleman, Enzo Osella, Ralph Bellamy, Adolfo Orsi, to name just four. I could post the whole lot of mysteries (about 80 odd) here perhaps, or still refer people to the site, I guess.


I too would love to know more on Stokoe.

#27 David Beard

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 20:25

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


Constantly. Try http://www.oldracing...?Category=Teams


Ah yes...and it's brilliant, Richie. Keep up the good work.