38 replies to this topic

[Angry Onion]

Could someone post the results of some ARCA and USAC stock car races (also the DNQ lists, if available) for me, please? I know I'm asking for a lot, but just the drivers' first names and surnames and the order in which they finished will be enough. I've developed an interest in the history of less-known stock car divisions, but there's very little on the net and I don't have access to any historic magazines/yearbooks/programmes etc., so I'd be very grateful if someone could help me out with at least one or two of these.

The races in question are:

1964 Daytona ARCA 250
1973 Daytona ARCA 300
The 1973 ARCA race at the Texas World Speedway (what was the official name?)
1979 Daytona ARCA 200
1964 USAC 250 mile Stock Car race at the Milwaukee Mile
1970 USAC Governors Cup 250
1980 USAC Governors Cup 250

Once again, I would greatly appreciate any help

[szautke]

Contact me at szautke@wi.rr.com and we can see what we can do.

[fines]

I have the 1971 USAC Year Book so I could help you out with the 1970 race, but you need to be patient! I am rarely online these days, as I don't have any internet connection at home anymore...

[Angry Onion]

^ Thank you for your kind offer, take your time

[SimRacin14]

I am also searching for old ARCA race results as well. I'm trying to put together an online archive of old ARCA results that the ARCA website does not list. I've gotten some of the races from Daytona,Talladega seems lacking,it will probably be impossible to get much from Atlanta,Pocono or the short tracks but it's worth a shot I guess.


Thanks,
Jeff

[HDonaldCapps]

I wish that I had remembered this thread when I was back (all too very, very briefly) in the States since I could have provided some information for several these....

1964 Daytona ARCA 250
1964 USAC 250 mile Stock Car race at the Milwaukee Mile
1980 USAC Governors Cup 250

.....and maybe this one as well, 1970 USAC Governors Cup 250.

[Allen Brown]

Anyone have exact dates for these races?

Allen

[Angry Onion]

1964 Daytona ARCA 250 - February 8

1973 Daytona ARCA 300 - February 11

1979 Daytona ARCA 200 - February 11

http://arcaracing.cm...942/Itemid,147/

1964 USAC 250 at Milwaukee - September 20

1970 USAC Governors Cup - September 20

1980 USAC Governors Cup - September 7

http://209.85.129.10...pl&ct=clnk&cd=1

I don't know the date of the '73 Texas WS ARCA race, but the '72 race took place on October 8 (sadly, it was the race Louis Wusterhausen was killed in).

http://www.motorspor...hp?db=ct&n=2756

Mr Brown, your site is great, BTW .

Mr Capps, tough luck, but thank you, anyway .

[Allen Brown]

Thanks for your kind comment.

I had a look in CP&A for the first one but nothing there. I guess you've already looked.

Allen

[HDonaldCapps]

Contact me by email -- I have some scans of the issues of Illustrated Speedway News which have the 1964 results which I can email you.

[SimRacin14]

I'll throw in what I've gotten from race programs.

1967 ARCA 200

1976 Talladega ARCA 200

1977 Talladega ARCA 200

1986 ARCA 200


http://hscr.topcitie.../ARCAindex.html

[Racestats]

Here's what I found in the '65 Daytona 500 program on the '64 ARCA race:

1964 Daytona ARCA 250 results

[Angry Onion]

Thanks! A very solid field for the inaugural running of that race, even though quite modest in numbers - only 24 cars (as opposed to 46 for the Daytona 500).

And, surprisingly, no overlap between the fields in both races.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Racestats
Here's what I found in the '65 Daytona 500 program on the '64 ARCA race:

1964 Daytona ARCA 250 results

Originally posted by Angry Onion
Thanks! A very solid field for the inaugural running of that race, even though quite modest in numbers - only 24 cars (as opposed to 46 for the Daytona 500).

And, surprisingly, no overlap between the fields in both races.

Apparently, there were 20 additional cars not listed in the results found in the program.

[Angry Onion]

I see... but the article you sent me says there were 18 finishers, and the results classify 6 DNFs in places from 19 to 24, the last of which (Elmer Davis) is listed on Racestats' site as having completed only 3 laps. There doesn't really seem to be any room for an additional 20 cars in there. Is it possible there was some kind of an error in the article? After all, the only difference between 'fourty-four' and 'twenty-four' is one word.

[SimRacin14]

I got a couple more programs from the 80s off ebay,so I'll have some more ARCA results from the 80's up soon.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Angry Onion
I see... but the article you sent me says there were 18 finishers, and the results classify 6 DNFs in places from 19 to 24, the last of which (Elmer Davis) is listed on Racestats' site as having completed only 3 laps. There doesn't really seem to be any room for an additional 20 cars in there. Is it possible there was some kind of an error in the article? After all, the only difference between 'fourty-four' and 'twenty-four' is one word.

This is probably the point where I should give a class in historiography and dwell upon how the historian must have empathy not only for the subject area and the subjects being studied, but the sources being used. But, I will spare you that discussion for perhaps a later time.

Instead, I will point that there are several points to keep in mind when dealing with sources from this period, especially the serials -- the weeklies, bi-weeklies and the usual monthlies. First and foremost, don't expect much in the way of "complete" results. Second, expect partial or incomplete results -- usually the top ten or the finishers, as the norm. Third, read the stories -- when and if available as a means of sorting out the story. Fourth, expect errors to sprout wings and fly -- anything from typos to serious factual errors, to say nothing of those of, ahem, "interpretation."

What you have for the 1964 ARCA event at Daytona is a list of the finishers, along with a few of the notable retirements. It would be interesting to see whether of not the Hank Schoolfield bi-weekly (Southern MotoRacing) has a complete lisitng of all 44 cars that competed and the final results to include laps completed and reason retired. Such lists were all too often the exception and not the rule in the mid-Sixties. Towards the late-Sixties there seemed to be more of an effort to provide at least the bare bones results, to include those who retired as well as the finishers. Indeed, the absolute hit-or-miss way things were done during that era oftgen meant that a good race report -- the story -- would be missing anything remotely like the results and vice versa.

There is certainly good reason that so many of us nod our heads in agreement whenever we see or hear DSJ's constant refrain: "Pity the poor historian!"

[Jim Thurman]

Don brings up a great point. While it's definitely worth digging into, it would not surprise me to not find any publication listing full field results from that era, let alone DNQ's (it would be difficult to find DNQ lists even for NASCAR events in the 80's, let alone other series). As he mentions, it's just the way it was done.

CP&A did have some write-ups of the ARCA races at Daytona. I recall a good one the year Iggy Katona became the oldest driver to win a "superspeedway" event.

I also believe they might have mentioned the ARCA race that opened Talladega (this is another point, other series have often inaugurated new tracks - ARCA, NASCAR's Western series, etc.)

CP&A had good coverage of USAC and NASCAR GNW/WGN in the early 1970's and spottier coverage of USAC Stocks through the remainder of the 70's (I recall some very good reports in the '76-'77 range). Stock Car Racing magazine also had some good reports of these series, including a monthly column on NASCAR's Western series from 1969, but again, results are something else altogether.

What Don mentions is what makes reconstructing this history so difficult, and that is even in the "major" series. When Jack McCoy, the winningest driver in NASCAR's Western series history, did his autobiography ("Racing's Real McCoy"), he covered his career in a race by race manner. A problem with this approach was that many NASCAR PCLM races were not even reported in the regional racing weekly because NASCAR did not have a full time PR person for the series until the late 1960's (!). It was up to the local track reporter, who often passed on sending in a report because it wasn't part of the weekly racing (!). So, Jack's book has very limited results and spotty details of some of the races he competed in. I got in contact with Jack and told him that it was too bad I wasn't aware of his plans as I had Competition Press & Autoweek from the period that featured race reports and results.

In hoping to do a history of the NASCAR Western series, I don't truly think there would be any way to remotely replicate Greg Fielden's outstanding efforts to list full field results of NASCAR's GN events. Greg had a difficult time even with NASCAR's GN records...and I have serious doubts what became of Western records when NASCAR closed the regional office in Scotts Valley, California in the mid-90's and moved things to Daytona. I wonder what even exists of pre-1970's records (actually with the move, I even wonder about those!). And DNQ's?, it's down to people like me that will remember Perry Cottingham's Buick Skylark DNQ for the 250 at Ascot in October '72. At least dad wrote in the qualifying times, but what of all the other races?

[Angry Onion]

Thank you both for the insight... never had any idea finding that stuff would be THAT hard or nigh impossible... but I guess I shouldn't be surprised when I hear of historical events/documents being neglected

But on a more positive note I think this makes one appreciate what was documented and the work of the people who do the documenting even more

[HDonaldCapps]

When getting out of the mainstream series, always anticipate the worst case scenario being the baseline. We have jillions of people plowing the same furrows over and over and over and over while only a few are motivated and crazy enough to tackle other scarcely cultivated fields. I admire your efforts, Onion & Sim, for going where few seem interested enough to even look much less dig.

Greg Fielden's massive effort for GN/WC is really only the top portion of the iceberg, there still being much left to be done, despite there seeming to be an attitude to declare vistory and stack arms on the part of many. It is not necesssarily the results themselves -- there are still many gaps and blanks that need to be resolved, but going that extra bit or so to build upon what is a pretty darn good foundation. It is surprising how few seem to be doing this.

[Racestats]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Apparently, there were 20 additional cars not listed in the results found in the program.

Just curious, but why do you say there are 20 additional cars? Not trying to pick a fight. Here is a link to the actual page from the program. It lists the 12 finishers from each qualifying race, the start positions for the 250 match up, there were only two caution flags and seemingly not many drivers failed to finish.

I understand what you are saying about partial results, but this page has tricked me into thinking these are complete. When doing research along these lines, when presented with evidence like this, how are we to know what's complete and what isn't?

1964 Daytona ARCA 250 results from '65 program

[Allen Brown]

Look at the start positions. The first 24 cars on the grid finish in the first 24 positions. Chances are, that means there were 24 starters.

Allen

[Angry Onion]

I don't think Donald Capps meant there necessarily were 44 cars in that race, only that race result sheets and articles on races from 'those' times were often incomplete and/or full of mistakes, sometimes major ones. He simply cautioned against taking things for granted with such documents.

And the article on the '64 ARCA Daytona 250 he sent me does mention fourty-four starters - I think here lies the error, 'fourty', instead of 'twenty'.

[SimRacin14]

I've managed to update the listing of ARCA results again. Up to 58 races,mostly from the late 80s early 90s. I have to the results to nearly every ARCA 200 in the 1980s(except 1980 and 1982) They need some additional work to them though. I also have the results to an ARCA race from 1979 at Talladega won by Sandy Satullo. It only lists 21 finishers,but there is evidence that at least 23 cars started the race.

[SimRacin14]

I bought a 1989 ARCA media guide and a 1980 Daytona 500 program. Hopefully I can acquire some more race results that way.


I'm thinking about sending an email to the ARCA folks showing them the site I've been working on.What do you all think they would say?

[Angry Onion]

I wouldn't be surprised if they simply ignored you.

[Jim Thurman]

Sorry for the delay in responding to this thread...

Onion and Sim, don't be discouraged by what Don and I wrote. I too greatly admire the effort and encourage both of you to press on and dig to chronicle these events while still reasonably fresh. In time, it will only get more and more difficult to do.

As far as sending info to ARCA, I would, but the response you get could range from appreciation and enthusiasm to great indifference. If the latter, don't let it bother you. I speak from experience, I've been down that road before. My first "project" was taking SCCA Formula 5000 statistics and formatting them into a stats section like all other pro SCCA series listed in their media guide. I sent them off and the then PR director was quite appreciative and the stats were printed in a later SCCA Pro Racing Guide.

I look forward to everything you come up with. This is a very worthwhile project. So hang in there and don't be discouraged

[SimRacin14]

I've gotten about 90 races up now. I have two '85 races to do,the 1978 ARCA 200 is in one of my programs,and then I get to do the 1999-2006 seasons plus the races they'll be running in 2007.I'll try to get some Atlanta/Michigan/Pocono programs off of ebay,but I've noticed so far they're not as informative as the Daytona/Talladega ones have been.

[SimRacin14]

Don Radebaugh did take a look at the archive I made.

"Jeff....

Thanks for your interest and all your hard work. We'll check out your link below to gain a better understanding of the info you have available.

We would love to be able to see some of those old programs you spoke of, if possible.

Unfortunately, records were not so well kept in the early days, and, as a result, there are still several gaps in our history. If you have any info on the following events, we would be grateful for your service.

Missing Race Winners & Pole Winners
ARCA RE/MAX Series 1953-1976
Date Winners Pole Winners
8/3/1957 Ft. Wayne Speedway/Ft. Wayne IN
8/4/1957 Flat Rock Speedway/Flat Rock MI
8/18/1957 Sharon Speedway/Hartford OH
8/24/1957 Richmond Speedway/Richmond KY
8/25/1957 Salem Speedway/Salem IN
9/2/1957 Lakewood Speedway/Atlanta GA
10/6/1957 Cincinnati Bowl/Cincinnati OH 4 Winners? 4 Poles?
3/3/1958 Dallas
5/25/1958 Lorain County Speedway/Elyria OH
5/30/1958 Canfield Speedway/Canfield OH
7/4/1958 Canfield Speedway/Canfield OH
7/18/1958 Soldier Field/Chicago IL
10/5/1958 Flat Rock Speedway/Flat Rock MI
6/12/1960 Nashville Fairgrounds (Music City)
8/15/1965 Michigan State Fairgrounds/Detroit MI
8/21/1965 Clark County Fairgrounds/Springfield OH
5/20/1966 Cloverleaf Speedway/Cleveland OH
7/4/1969 Lorain County Speedway/Elyria OH
7/20/1969 Eldora Speedway/Rossburg OH
7/15/1972 Nashville Fairgrounds (Music City) Bill Morton
9/25/1976 Toledo Speedway

In the meantime, send me a mailing address, and we'll send you our hardcover 50th anniversary book....unless you already have it and are not interested.

Thanks again,

Don Radebaugh
ARCA PR/Media director"

[SimRacin14]

http://www.arcaracin...nt/view/4274/2/

[Jim Thurman]

Sim,

That's great. I would have thought Don Radebaugh would have been one of those appreciative of your efforts.

Interesting list of missing events. Some prominent tracks and a lot of good sized cities.

I won't physically be able to do it, but if I suggest checking microfilm of those city papers either at a state or local library - and someone else does it, can I have a book too?

I would think most of those could be found on microfilm of the respective papers.

National Speed Sport News should be a help for many of these too.

[fines]

Patience is a good thing...

1970-9-20, Milwaukee 250 Mile race, West Allis, WI, promoter Wisconsin Auto Racing, $33,600, 250 laps of 1-mile paved oval

1 Jack Bowsher, Springfield, OH, # 21, Jack Bowsher, 1970 (1969?) Ford Torino
2 Roger McCluskey, Tucson, AZ, # 1, Norm Nelson, 1970 Plymouth Superbird
3 Norm Nelson, Racine, WI, # 41, Norm Nelson, 1970 (1969?) Plymouth Roadrunner
4 Lem Blankenship, Keokuk, IA, # 77, Stott's Racing, 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner
5 Butch Hartman, South Zanesville, OH, # 75, Hartman's White & Autocar, 1969 Dodge Charger
6 Whitey Gerken, Melrose Park, IL, # 54, Whitey Gerken, 1969 Chevelle
7 Bobby Wawak, Villa Park, IL, # 15, Bobby Wawak, 1969 Dodge Charger
8 Paul Feldner, Colgate, WI, # 39, Joan Feldner, 1969 Dodge Charger
9 Bruce Sparrman, Excelsior, MN, # 81, Bruce Sparrman, 1970 Plymouth Roadrunner
10 Billy Ries, Shakopee, MN, # 67, Minder Johnson, 1969 Chevrolet Camaro
11 Larry Berwanger, Gary, IN, # 90, Larry Berwanger, 1969 Dodge Charger
12 Dave Whitcomb, Valparaiso, IN, # 7, Dave Whitcomb, 1970 Dodge Super Bee
R Don White, Keokuk, IA, # 3, Ray Nichels Engineering, 1970 Dodge Daytona, ignition failure when leading

Sorry, only the top 12 - I thought I had full results but not for this year!

[SimRacin14]

It's been awhile since I've posted here,so I figure I'd update on what I've done.(Yes,I'm still working on this).

I have quite a few ARCA races done. I have the entire season for 1999 up to this past season. I'm missing quite a few races from '95-'98 however,and wish I could find some stuff on them. I actually have more from '92-'94 than I do for '95-'98. I still have bits and pieces of 80s stuff,but I do have all the winners down thanks to an ARCA historian that emailed me a list.

I've also been working on Goody's Dash a little bit,as well as ARCA's truck series,which I think I have the results for nearly every race,however,they're not up on the site just yet. ASA stuff is another goal of mine,and finding stuff for it is harder than finding stuff for ARCA. I have managed to contact the current owner of the Dash series,which is now ISCARS,and he said he'd help me with race results but I'll wait and see.

The series I'm hoping to cover:
ARCA
ARCA Lincoln Welders Truck Series
ASA
NASCAR's lower divisons(Dash,Winston West,Busch North,etc)
USAR

Well,basically the only stuff I'm not doing is NASCAR's top three divisions since they're pretty well covered.

http://hscr.topcities.com/ Here's the site link again for now,but it's in dire need of an update and a re-arrangement.

[SimRacin14]

Hey all,it's been awhile since I've posted.

Just wanted to mention that the ARCA project is still going strong,I've got winners list and schedules up and quite a few races too.

http://hscr.topcitie.../arcaindex3.htm


I think at last count I had 524 pages up,which means there are 524 race results in varying degrees of completion(from just the top 5 to a full rundown). I think ARCA's only run about 1250 races at most,so I guess I'm not doing too bad. I am far from finished,and doubt I ever will be,since I've started tackling other racing divisions as well,such as the ASA(which will be another task within itself)

[SimRacin14]

Hey all,it's been awhile since I've posted.

Just wanted to mention that the ARCA project is still going strong,I've got winners list and schedules up and quite a few races too.

http://hscr.topcitie.../arcaindex3.htm


I think at last count I had 524 pages up,which means there are 524 race results in varying degrees of completion(from just the top 5 to a full rundown). I think ARCA's only run about 1250 races at most,so I guess I'm not doing too bad. I am far from finished,and doubt I ever will be,since I've started tackling other racing divisions as well,such as the ASA(which will be another task within itself)

It's been over a year since I've posted,I figure I would update everyone again on the progress of my research for ARCA results.

First and foremost,I've moved everything to a new site:
https://sites.google...rarchive/arca-1

I've gotten some more seasons completed over the past year,in fact, 1996,1997 and 1998 are all complete now(that was not the case the last time I posted). I'm very close to getting the 1993 and 1994 ARCA seasons done,just missing a couple races for each one. There are still quite a few races missing for 1995,as well as other years. I have results to all the races ARCA has held at Michigan Int'l Speedway, Pocono Raceway and the Talladega Superspeedway. I'm missing some for Daytona,but I have results for every Daytona race from the present back to at least the early to mid 70s. Atlanta is another speedway I'm missing races for,but I've been trying to work on that as well.

[Bob Riebe]

Most interesting.
In 1965, Curtis Turner won a race, and they raced at the Mid-Ohio road cours, plus in '76, Salt Walther got an eigth place at the Daytona race-- very interesting.

[SimRacin14]

I'm updating this thread once again, since my last post I've managed to find complete results for the '92,'93,'94 and 1995 ARCA seasons. I have a full field rundown to all of the 1991 ARCA events, plus complete results for most of the 1991 races. I can happily say that I can keep looking for more and more older stuff.

It's hard to believe that I've almost spent five years on this project, as well!

- Jeff

Edited by SimRacin14, 22 June 2011 - 09:46.

[group7]

I know this thread is a bit off topic for the general thrust of this forum !  the thread has been inactive for some time, can any one put a drivers name to this # 22  what I think is an Oldsmobile,  sponsored by Demmer Eng.   at Eldora (ARCA) 1966-67. I have done some searching but haven't found an answer. about half way down the page in the link, under  "Steve Struve photos"

 

http://www.darfnews....istoryDirt.aspx

 

thanks, group7

 

edit. Demmer Engineering, Lansing, was a subcontractor for the "Hurst" Oldsmobiles.

Edited by group7, 12 May 2016 - 01:43.

[Bob Riebe]

WoW,  Jack Hewitt winning in a stock car.