81 replies to this topic

[cosworth bdg]

Will Jaguar get new owners . ?????????

[Stoatspeed]

We were already talking about this on the "Longbridge" thread, but thanks for opening a new one, Peter.

Here was my last post there:

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JCB Excavators have expressed an interest in buying Jaguar
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Interesting development .... from what I understand of the way JCB is run, this might not be bad for Jaguar. Bamford is most definitely an enthusiast, has money, and kept JCB going through some very tough times for the construction industry. It may take him a while to see any real return on the project, but I think he would do a great job of keeping the marque values alive. I'm surprised he is not interested in land Rover, I'd have thought the branding links alone with JCB products would be too good to pass over, but maybe he only wants the crown jewel?

I have a bit of an interest in the fate of the company, having devoted 16 years of my life to a career there .... ending just after the Ford era began, by coincidence ...
At the time of the Ford takeover, the scale of the company was much more conducive to takeover than it is now, IMHO. The manufacturing strategy Ford has used to get the volume up has meant multiple plants, engines travelling around the world to meet cars .... it will be very complex to untangle this, and also of course some of the other PAG products now using Jag engines (or close derivatives) will add even more complexity.
I am intrigued by the JCB rumour, horrified by the (apparently false) Hyundai idea, and a little scared of the Smolensky/TVR ownership. Whoever takes the plunge will need a sweet deal from Ford and a brave plan to keep things moving ... I see Bamford already talked about downsizing (probably a good plan ... and it will help to untangle the products more form the Ford web).
Let's see what a few more days of rumours and news brings along ...

Dave

[RTH]

I actually think Jaguar has made good progress under Ford both in quality and facilities . I would like the brand to stay a major player in its field and hope Ford decide to keep it . Seems such a waste when they have got this far, spent so much money .
The cars need to be a bit more adventurous to look more distinctive , more overtly 'Jaguar' less, - 'blend in to the sea 'of similar looking traffic. Most of the range is physically too big for th available space left now either on the road or to park.

The F1 project was a colossal waste of money did nothing but harm to image and to road car resources , both talent, manpower and finances.
Of course they should have a real spiritual successor to the E-Type. The new XK is another huge and heavy car. The X type is usually criticised by people who have never driven one, the styling was too timid, it is actually a nice car and quite good value especially used.

They have shown some really great looking concept cars over the last 10 years and then made none of them !

A change in direction Ford , but please keep the faith.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by RTH
I actually think Jaguar has made good progress under Ford both in quality and facilities . I would like the brand to stay a major player in its field and hope Ford decide to keep it . Seems such a waste when they have got this far, spent so much money .
The cars need to be a bit more adventurous to look more distinctive , more overtly 'Jaguar' less, - 'blend in to the sea 'of similar looking traffic. Most of the range is physically too big for th available space left now either on the road or to park.

The F1 project was a colossal waste of money did nothing but harm to image and to road car resources , both talent, manpower and finances.
Of course they should have a real spiritual successor to the E-Type. The new XK is another huge and heavy car. The X type is usually criticised by people who have never driven one, the styling was too timid, it is actually a nice car and quite good value especially used.

They have shown some really great looking concept cars over the last 10 years and then made none of them !

A change in direction Ford , but please keep the faith.

That just about sums up my own views too. I think it would be sad if Ford threw in the towel just because the parent company has problems in other areas. A bit of a more long-term view is needed (like in most other things these days). Ford have made a much better job of running Jaguar (and Aston Martin too) than its American rival, who didn't have a clue what to do with Lotus and is now doing the same thing with Saab.

Perhaps if they do need to make some drastic changes, they could stop having three saloons and reduce it to two - one sized in between the current X and S types, and one between the S and XJ. Reason? There's almost no point in trying to meet BMW and Mercedes head-on these days; for better or worse, they are now almost the default choice of executive car. Jaguar should try something a little different. The eventual XK replacement could be based on the smaller car, and there could be a proper 21st century E Type as a stand-alone car.

[BRG]

Originally posted by RTH
I actually think Jaguar has made good progress under Ford both in quality and facilities . I would like the brand to stay a major player in its field and hope Ford decide to keep it . Seems such a waste when they have got this far, spent so much money.

I agree too. Ford needs a prestige brand. Like the other volume manufacturers, they have had little commercial success with their own top-of-the-range models and they haven't even bothered with one in Europe since building the astonishingly ugly Scorpio and wondering why no-one bought it. Volvo fills some of that gap, but they don't have the sporting image that Jaguar brings.

But it needs some rethinking. Why for instance, is a sporting car like the XK not available with a manual gearbox, not even as an option? I know someone who would have bought one, but walked away because he loathes autos. So he bought a Maserati instead.

The X-type is a nice car but is too close to the main Ford range. I like the retro style of the S-type with its Jag-heritage cues but the cars have not had the quality and reliability to challenge their competitors.

I would like to see them producing
- a new 'E-type' - a proper sports car in open and coupe form to compete with models like the Audi TT, BMW Z4, Merc SLK, and what have you, but pitched below Aston Martin in price.
- a Chairman's luxury barge (I hate them, but they are a Jag tradition and Ford don't make them anywhere else
- a new 'Mark 2' for younger thrusting executives and bank robbers - something liek the X-type, but more clearly a Jaguar.

But please, no SUVs, pick-ups or MPVs!

[Paul Parker]

I hope you are right Ian Senior but I cannot see it.

All of commercial enterprise in the UK at every level is predicated to the short term, starting from the City, major banks and finance houses and beyond.

The only long term players are the British government who have unlimited access to our money for unlimited periods and waste it accordingly or misuse it.

[David M. Kane]

Paul:

You're right and America is right there with you. We're in a pretty good mess ourselves. There are far too similarities between the two economies, i.e. social states. I hope Ford get there act together in my lifetime. They certainly have lost there way.

[Nordic]

Originally posted by BRG
I agree too. Ford needs a prestige brand. Like the other volume manufacturers, they have had little commercial success with their own top-of-the-range models and they haven't even bothered with one in Europe since building the astonishingly ugly Scorpio and wondering why no-one bought it. Volvo fills some of that gap, but they don't have the sporting image that Jaguar brings.

Ford also own Aston Martin, having two does seem greedy!

If JCB do get there hands on Jaguar, will it rekindle memories of when David Brown, like JCB a company originally with a tractor background, saved Aston Martin and gave us the DB name still used today.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Nordic

If JCB do get there hands on Jaguar, will it rekindle memories of when David Brown, like JCB a company originally with a tractor background, saved Aston Martin and gave us the DB name still used today.

And it will allow us to revive the old joke about the company car being a JCB GT

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Allan Lupton


And it will allow us to revive the old joke about the company car being a JCB GT

Good one , i have not heard that one before.......

[bradbury west]

Jeff Randall is always worth a read, Wednesdays and Fridays, Daily Telegraph, available on line.

http://www.telegraph...30/ccjeff30.xml

RL

[RTH]

Now Ford have said Aston Martin is available for purchase !

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by RTH
Now Ford have said Aston Martin is available for purchase !

Link/source?

edit: BBC

[RTH]

Pundits in the industry now think Jaguar is in the clear

Aston makes a profit, has 1700 employees making 5000 cars a year they say they have several serious enquiries.

Selling Aston now seems like madness to me !! Hope sense prevails. Its all over BBC radio and TV.

[FredF1]

Originally posted by RTH
Its all over BBC radio and TV.

They said it was "James Bond's favourite car."


I didn't know BMW were being sold.

[BRG]

Originally posted by FredF1
They said it was "James Bond's favourite car."

I didn't know BMW were being sold.

I think you will find that the Bond films were he has a Aston far outnumber those that feature BMWs - which usually ended up trashed anyway (IIRC)! Actually, Bond's favoured car was a Bentley if you go back to the source books.

Is this the death throes of Ford, I wonder? Why sell off the profitable bits just to cover the losses made by the core comapny? The sooner that the shareholders manage to dislodge the Ford family hold on this company, the better. The current Mr Ford is running the company into the ground.

[FredF1]

Originally posted by BRG
I think you will find that the Bond films were he has a Aston far outnumber those that feature BMWs - which usually ended up trashed anyway (IIRC)! Actually, Bond's favoured car was a Bentley if you go back to the source books.

Is this the death throes of Ford, I wonder? Why sell off the profitable bits just to cover the losses made by the core comapny? The sooner that the shareholders manage to dislodge the Ford family hold on this company, the better. The current Mr Ford is running the company into the ground.

You're not suggesting that those BMWs and Siemens mobiles were mere product placements are you?


Re: Ford.

I recall an interview with Anne Stevens of Ford at the Detroit motor show. The interviewer put it to her that Toyota were wiping the floor with Ford only to get a mishmash of corporate gobbledygook and fingers in ears la-la-la-la I'm not listening in response.

My own thoughts were "You lot are well ****ed and you know it."

[MrAerodynamicist]

Telegraph: Potential buyers for Aston Martin are likely to drive a 'pretty hard bargain'

[RTH]

GM and Ford have saddled themselves with cumulative pension and healthcare commitments in the USA that they cannot maintain in the long run. Caveing in the the auto unions over decades on pay mean now line workers are paid rates that make manufacturing no longer viable there in to the future.

You can imagine the US parts of the empires being liquidated in order to save the rest of the companies worldwide. Car plants will go east where the labour rates are 1/10th of what is being paid in Detroit. The people concerned are deluding themselves if they think this won't happen.

[BRG]

Originally posted by RTH
Car plants will go east where the labour rates are 1/10th of what is being paid in Detroit. The

Coventry and Newport Pagnell are both east of Detroit, aren't they?

[doc knutsen]

Originally posted by BRG
Coventry and Newport Pagnell are both east of Detroit, aren't they?

Coventry? Browns Lane RIP....but Castle Bromwich is still east of Detroit...

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by RTH
Now Ford have said Aston Martin is available for purchase !

While we are on the subject of FORD, what about VOLVO cars...

[RTH]

Bill Ford jnr (Henry Fords great grandson ) has replaced himself as CEO of Ford Motor Company by the head of Boeing 61 year old Alan Mulally (sorry I don't know how his name is spelt ).

I think this tells us things are much worse than we thought and that drastic measures will be taken in terms of plant closures and redundancies.

They will also now have to act very quickly indeed in the US to introduce new models that consume half the amount of fuel of the present range, - yet still appeal to the American people.

The American motor industry as a whole has this serious cummulative financial liability to pay out healthcare and pensions to former employees and high labour rates for line workers in many plants.

All this, at a time when US makers had put all their eggs in the basket if the 3 ton SUV and pick up truck. A combination of the rapid quadroupling of crude oil price and the rapid emergence of far eastern car making

These will be very difficult to solve, will have now to be tackled head on right now, and may have far reaching effects for the companies in question and the US economy which always knocks on to Europe.

Interesting to hear Karl Ludvigsen on the subject on BBC Radio 4 this morning a former vice president of Ford Motor Company Europe, who I hope might give us his insight in to just exactly what will be needed and what that may mean to the European Car scene.

[cosworth bdg]

Downunder FORD cannot do anything wrong, their local manufactured model lineup is perfect ,imported euro models also perfect and a toolroom the largest in the southern hemisphere........... GM on the other hand

[RTH]

Now we hear ASton Martin's CEO Dr Ulrich Bez is planning a management buy-out of the company.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by RTH
Now we hear ASton Martin's CEO Dr Ulrich Bez is planning a management buy-out of the company.

Good luck to them.... ,Regards PN......

[RTH]

Ford announce this morning they have offered voluntary redundancies to all 75,000 of it's North American workers with a very big cash package if they leave the healthcare system etc.

Accumulated debts this morning on BBC radio were said to be over £9BN and plan to close 16 plants. More plans in detail set to be released by the company later today.

[Stoatspeed]

OK, now it's officially NOT for sale .... again ...

http://yahoo.reuters...omktNews&rpc=44
Must mean that they are in final negotiations with someone

[Paul Parker]

It seems likely, even without the rumours, that Jaguar and Land Rover are still in the firing line.

Ford's fiscal crisis including pension liabilities as described to me by a senior management figure last year are in my opinion insoluble in orthodox terms. Widen your perspective and not only the US car industry but the US economy in general is in meltdown, requiring vast, unimaginable amounts of foreign currency just to tread water.

Heaven knows what its trade deficit must be but on my last visit I could not help noticing the seemingly endless products of all kinds made in China (a situation rapidly developing here and in mainland Europe), a truly disastrous situation both economically and politically for the western world.

[RTH]

This policy in the US and in the UK of pushing debts further out in to the future by both governments companies and individuals will have very dire consequencies indeed and it's looming up now.

[Paul Parker]

All too true RTH but nobody wants to hear it as most (governments, companies, individuals) are buried up to their eyeballs in debt and/or have their head up their arses metaphorically speaking.

We have all been sold a crock of ****. You cannot make a viable profit and support welfare programmes via punitive taxation regimes and endure political interference as well as paying an adequate wage to tens of thousands of employees. Ford is merely the most obvious victim at this time but certainly not unique.

None of the above applies to China, India and the Far East in general who can pour at anything and everything on brand new machine tools with minimum outlay and/or by being heavily state subsidised (although Japan with its western style prosperity and higher wage scales could also suffer).

Of course the dopes who run Europe (and perhaps America) will probably try half hearted, half arsed protectionism whilst still clinging to their political claptrap but at some point the bill will have to be paid both economically and socially.

[Huw Jadvantich]

You won't have to worry about Ann Steven's clap trap she's been given the old heave-ho, along with David Sczupack (ex-Jaguar) and a load of other 'executive officers'.

I believe that Jaguar as it exists now was never a proposition for JCB it was simply too high volume and not the cohesive mass it was a couple of years ago before Browns Lane was closed, however Aston Martin would be right up their alley.

It is unfortunate that Toyota can use Lexus as a loss leader, but Ford is making so many losses it really needs a profit leader! The Market Jaguar are in is selling new, high end technology on a volume level - really that can only be done with a very thin profit margin and a big financial engine big research resources and hard parts manufacturer behind them. They are better off where they are or being taken over by Renault.
Ford have wasted an opportunity with Jaguar, the synergies with Mazda were huge from the word go when Ford took over, and still are, but they haven't so much as looked at it.
Ever since Jaguar had more than one person doing the product planning they haven't pulled a really great product out of the bag.

[FredF1]

Indeed.


And that dire Gorgeous ad campaign makes it look like they're flogging perfume. Still, it makes me smile to contrast the 'Beautiful People' in the advert with the 'Fat middle-aged bloke' type owners in real life.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
You won't have to worry about Ann Steven's clap trap she's been given the old heave-ho, along with David Sczupack (ex-Jaguar) and a load of other 'executive officers'.

I believe that Jaguar as it exists now was never a proposition for JCB it was simply too high volume and not the cohesive mass it was a couple of years ago before Browns Lane was closed, however Aston Martin would be right up their alley.

It is unfortunate that Toyota can use Lexus as a loss leader, but Ford is making so many losses it really needs a profit leader! The Market Jaguar are in is selling new, high end technology on a volume level - really that can only be done with a very thin profit margin and a big financial engine big research resources and hard parts manufacturer behind them. They are better off where they are or being taken over by Renault.
Ford have wasted an opportunity with Jaguar, the synergies with Mazda were huge from the word go when Ford took over, and still are, but they haven't so much as looked at it.
Ever since Jaguar had more than one person doing the product planning they haven't pulled a really great product out of the bag.

Jaguar may be safe for now, but FORD are about to layoff 50000 workers in the US to stave off BANKRUPCY......

[RTH]

I think we can ask can either GM or Ford Motor in the USA continue with their high healthcare cost for present as well as past employees, the pension cost , the high hourly wage rates for line workers etc , saddled with the wrong class of model mix for rapidly changing times, WITHOUT putting themselves in to bankruptcy and restarting all over again.

The live for today , postpone the debt policy, coupled with new far eastern factories with very low labour rates. Surely now something VERY big will just have to happen ?

[ian senior]

Originally posted by RTH
Surely now something VERY big will just have to happen ?

But it never does, does it? People have been saying similar for years, with regard to all kinds of things, and still we muddle through. Short of World War III, which would really upset the status quo, the Western World will just continue to struggle along somehow.

[RTH]

If ever there was a case of the motor industry heading off in completely the wrong direction surely the times we are presently living in is that.

http://www.pistonhea...p?storyId=15064

[Paul Parker]

Predictably I do not share Ian's near complacency about things.

Unlike the past the "We'll struggle through somehow" scenario becomes less and less likely as the barriers separating east and west, politically and economically, merge. Inevitably the huge advantages enjoyed by the Chinese, Indians et al (limitless supply of relatively or very cheap labour, smaller overheads, subsidies of one sort or another, emerging and huge new market places etc., etc.) will prove decisive.

I believe that western manufacturing (what's left of it) will disappear excepting in certain niche markets and specialised applications. All that supports the current status quo are the banks who are still lending (as they do to prop up and artificially maintain UK housing prices) and governments who cannot afford the political fall out and socio/economic consequences of corporations like Ford or GM going under as they would have done years ago.

I certainly hope I am being too pessimistic and Ian is correct as the alternative does not bear thinking about.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
Predictably I do not share Ian's near complacency about things.

Unlike the past the "We'll struggle through somehow" scenario becomes less and less likely as the barriers separating east and west, politically and economically, merge. Inevitably the huge advantages enjoyed by the Chinese, Indians et al (limitless supply of relatively or very cheap labour, smaller overheads, subsidies of one sort or another, emerging and huge new market places etc., etc.) will prove decisive.

I believe that western manufacturing (what's left of it) will disappear excepting in certain niche markets and specialised applications. All that supports the current status quo are the banks who are still lending (as they do to prop up and artificially maintain UK housing prices) and governments who cannot afford the political fall out and socio/economic consequences of corporations like Ford or GM going under as they would have done years ago.

I certainly hope I am being too pessimistic and Ian is correct as the alternative does not bear thinking about.

Not complacent at all Paul, in fact I think we are more or less at one on this, as I happen to agree with what you wrote above. It's just that the "struggle through" attitude, or call it "heads in the sand" if you like, has been so prevalent for so long, something must happen to put an end to it sooner or later. It's just that no-one wants to believe it. I was using a touch of irony in what I wrote before.

In terms of the motor industry, if we in the Western world think that motor manufacturing has suffered since first the Japanese and then the Koreans came on the scene, that is nothing compared to what will happen when the Chinese (and probably the Indians) really get into their stride.

[Paul Parker]

Thank you Ian.

What continues to frustrate me (and presumably others) is that all of the foregoing was not only predictable but glaringly obvious to all and sundry. Yet the third rate ham actors and crooks who have supposedly represented our interests over the decades apparently failed to notice anything amiss at all.

This has been a gigantic failure of administration and philosophy at every level of government and industry and we have had nowhere else to turn to. Worse still said persons and their successors are still in charge, indeed the current incumbents have demonstrated a level of incompetence and fiscal incontinence that has surely never been matched.

Meanwhile I will go and slash my wrists to the sound of "Land of hope and glory.........." and the collective sigh of relief of the rest of you no doubt!

[RTH]

As an example I cannot see why the UK opposition have not exposed the current national debt and just how much it has gone up by in the last 5 years. Currently a half a Trillion pounds and going up by another £40BN every year despite the massively increased tax burden !

Unemployment of 1.5 million disguised by a further 2.7 million on an 'incapacity' register (have you ever had any backache sir..................oh right well you are not fit enough to go on the official unemployment register ! )

Official goverment rate of inflation 2.5 %.............laughable when gas/electricity/heating oil have gone up by 75 % in little more than 12 months. With colossal increases in much else as well.

The honest rate of inflation is more likely 15 %

You are both right we are in for big financial trouble and I feel could be quite soon.

[RTH]

This whole Ford/Jaguar/Aston thing is more confused

http://www.pistonhea...p?storyId=15065

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
Thank you Ian.

What continues to frustrate me (and presumably others) is that all of the foregoing was not only predictable but glaringly obvious to all and sundry. Yet the third rate ham actors and crooks who have supposedly represented our interests over the decades apparently failed to notice anything amiss at all.

This has been a gigantic failure of administration and philosophy at every level of government and industry and we have had nowhere else to turn to. Worse still said persons and their successors are still in charge, indeed the current incumbents have demonstrated a level of incompetence and fiscal incontinence that has surely never been matched.

Meanwhile I will go and slash my wrists to the sound of "Land of hope and glory.........." and the collective sigh of relief of the rest of you no doubt!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by RTH
As an example I cannot see why the UK opposition have not exposed the current national debt and just how much it has gone up by in the last 5 years. Currently a half a Trillion pounds and going up by another £40BN every year despite the massively increased tax burden !

Unemployment of 1.5 million disguised by a further 2.7 million on an 'incapacity' register (have you ever had any backache sir..................oh right well you are not fit enough to go on the official unemployment register ! )

Official goverment rate of inflation 2.5 %.............laughable when gas/electricity/heating oil have gone up by 75 % in little more than 12 months. With colossal increases in much else as well.

The honest rate of inflation is more likely 15 %

Hmmm... looks like there'll be a lot of pressure on our immigration people in the near future...

Those are alarming figures, Richard. How could they remain hidden?

[sterling49]

I read with interest and sadness this thread, so many of us understand the problems of the industry but nothing ever seems to advance from the horrendous days of poor quality and wildcat strikes of the 1960's and '70's.My own belief that the nature of the problem goes even further though, having just purchased a new car from the Blue Oval.....my choice of dealership was critical as soo many "salesmen" were too busy aranging the deckchairs to sell a car....shades of Fawlty and " I am trying to run a hotel here!" It seems odd to me as a sales manager that the very people the industry serve, they choose to ostracise.....one guy was literally too busy arranging prices on windscreens....I kid you not! I chose to spend my hard earned cash somewhere more willing to put the customer 1st....call me an old fashioned thang!!!!

I also agree with the level of debt so many discussed, in order to purchase something, best have the means to pay for it.......

Alas, on a recent trip to British Columbia, I had a discussion with a lovely Canadian family, yes we love our Hundai (Hyundai)said they, but I said beware of ignoring your local manufacturers as you will end up with an industry as ours in Blighty, the point was so totally lost on them, I do not know where they thought all the cars that were made locally, that were not sold, were going to go.....maybe Korea?

Interesting to see what happens...but I watch with interest people renew their cars mindless of the ultimate consequences and payback day.

With super fond memories of the lightweight E-Type as raced at Le mans....and the model as used by Simon Dee.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by sterling49
I read with interest and sadness this thread, so many of us understand the problems of the industry but nothing ever seems to advance from the horrendous days of poor quality and wildcat strikes of the 1960's and '70's.My own belief that the nature of the problem goes even further though, having just purchased a new car from the Blue Oval.....my choice of dealership was critical as soo many "salesmen" were too busy aranging the deckchairs to sell a car....shades of Fawlty and " I am trying to run a hotel here!" It seems odd to me as a sales manager that the very people the industry serve, they choose to ostracise.....one guy was literally too busy arranging prices on windscreens....I kid you not! I chose to spend my hard earned cash somewhere more willing to put the customer 1st....call me an old fashioned thang!!!!

I also agree with the level of debt so many discussed, in order to purchase something, best have the means to pay for it.......

Alas, on a recent trip to British Columbia, I had a discussion with a lovely Canadian family, yes we love our Hundai (Hyundai)said they, but I said beware of ignoring your local manufacturers as you will end up with an industry as ours in Blighty, the point was so totally lost on them, I do not know where they thought all the cars that were made locally, that were not sold, were going to go.....maybe Korea?

Interesting to see what happens...but I watch with interest people renew their cars mindless of the ultimate consequences and payback day.

With super fond memories of the lightweight E-Type as raced at Le mans....and the model as used by Simon Dee.

" BASIL FAWLTY" still rides high. but this time as a car sales PERSON.

[sterling49]

It may have been Basil....but surely I would have been in a British Leyland Dealership buying a red 1100........

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Hmmm... looks like there'll be a lot of pressure on our immigration people in the near future...

Those are alarming figures, Richard. How could they remain hidden?

http://www.telegraph...0/30/do3001.xml

I have cited this Telegraph link before, but I recommend it as worthwhile reading as it gives a graphic account of the resurgence of the Australian economy of the past years, at the same time that our's has been going down the proverbial, despite the assurances of those elected by a very small minority of the electorate to decide the fortunes of the majority.

It appears that John Howard can damn-near walk on water in terms of sorting out the Australian situation, the situation of which Gordon the marauder can only dream, when he is not doing photo ops in hot climes in shirtsleeves.

Australia seems probably the best country to which to emigrate if you are a skilled person below a certain age, or if you are an older person with certain means. I know there must be downsides to the place, but it seems very attractive and tempting.

Bear in mind also that Gordon's balance of trade, national debt figures do not reflect the billions of liability for taxpapyers directly or indirectly of the dreaded PFI stuff, not the ever increasing public sector pensions deficit, currently IIRC, greater than our GDP. UK plc is essentially insolvent, and it is getting worse.

RL

[Paul Parker]

In brief response to Ray Bell's comment about statistics from RTH "How could they remain hidden"?

It is because Brits are never knowingly told the truth by their governments unless it suits the purpose politically. Also according to a legal friend of mine many years ago British politicians are not legally obliged to tell us anything, partly because of our very loose and make it up as you go along 'constitution'. This status quo cannot be challenged in the orthodox sense and Mr. Average Brit can only turn to the very people who are responsible for the problem(s) in the first place.

The Treasury can say what it likes and how are we supposed to know otherwise unless we are directly involved or very well informed. In the UK that means virtually nobody. In any case we still cannot do anything about it.

[Vitesse2]

Precisely, Paul. Plus we are now governed by decree rather than Parliament .....

When Maggie came to power in 1979 her party swept away the hundreds and hundreds of incestuous and nepotistic QUANGOs which Labour had set up. Nearly 30 years on and after 10 years of Bliar they're back - only more so - and accompanied by legions of unelected and unaccountable "special advisers" who have essentially hijacked democracy and made the House of Commons an ineffective talking shop.