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S.Q.T. (stupid question thread)


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#1101 HaydenFan

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 01:40

Thank you, but what are the foils? Could you use that picture above to show me? And how would they have made the effect in the pit stop? What would they have done to complete the change of the '2 clicks front wing' steering wheel setting? I don't think they'd have time to get the drill out :lol:


Not to contradict, but as I say the race was 2007, two years before 2009. So what's the deal?


In the case of IndyCar, the wings are adjusted through the use of already attached adjusters as seen here as the T-Wrench at the top of the end plate. As seen on the right side of the wing (furthest away from us) as well, there are grooves on the end plate to move that particular foul of the wing's grade.

Posted Image

In the case of the F2007, it looks from this pick that the screw are on the top of the end plates like the IndyCar, but unlike the DW12 front wing from the IndyCar, it still requires a screw driver, or some kind of wrench to adjust.

Posted Image

Edited by HaydenFan, 13 March 2013 - 01:53.


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#1102 Harry

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 01:47

Thanks for replying but they are a bit too big too understand what you're saying mate, If you put them in [ quote ] tags would that make them smaller?

What would be really good is if you saved them, put circles around the points you're talking about in MS Paint, then uploaded them to imageshack/photobucket or wherever.

I am a noob at a technical stand point but wish to learn! :D



#1103 HaydenFan

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 01:57

A good site for F1 design info. Bit technical in some of the terms, but the videos and articles delve into everything.

http://scarbsf1.com/

A former F1 designer, again using bit words and a Greek accent, but really easy to follow.

http://www.youtube.c...vl6plCAmXTwju0o

There is some kid who also has some tech vids out there that are great, but having an issue finding them (somewhere deep in my YouTube history they are).

#1104 Harry

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 02:45

A good site for F1 design info. Bit technical in some of the terms, but the videos and articles delve into everything.

http://scarbsf1.com/

A former F1 designer, again using bit words and a Greek accent, but really easy to follow.

http://www.youtube.c...vl6plCAmXTwju0o

There is some kid who also has some tech vids out there that are great, but having an issue finding them (somewhere deep in my YouTube history they are).

Many thanks for your contribution but that tells me to look elsewhere, rather than ask the Oracle on here (he/she exists somewhere on here :)).

I would like to keep this discussion going in more detail if possible.

EDIT:

Just seen your edited pictures and analysis. Very good. Thank you VERY much for that. So how do they make it affect in a pit stop then? I don't think Massa's stop was shown after his problem. How did the pit stop crew rectify it? What did they do? And how did the 2 clicks help the transaction?

Edited by Harry, 13 March 2013 - 02:51.


#1105 HaydenFan

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 03:04

Just seen your edited pictures and analysis. Very good. Thank you VERY much for that. So how do they make it affect in a pit stop then? I don't think Massa's stop was shown after his problem. How did the pit stop crew rectify it? What did they do? And how did the 2 clicks help the transaction?


More than likely it took a few more seconds, if it impacted the stop at all and probably one of the many man made the adjustment.

This pic from '08 shows a Renault crew member tending to the front wing.

Posted Image

The "2 clicks" mean in the case of Massa who had an understeer issue, that the rear of the foil was raised, increasing the grade of the front wing piece, increasing front downforce. This works to create a neutral car (where there is no understeer, where the car wants to not turn, or oversteer, where the car wants to spin out) or a car that has more oversteer. In the case of the 2007 Australian GP, it probably helped Massa as he started 22nd on the grid and finished 6th.

Edited by HaydenFan, 13 March 2013 - 03:04.


#1106 Harry

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 03:21

Very good yet again, but still, what did the pit crew change on his front wing (after the radio message) and how did they change it?

EDIT:

Good picture, but do you think that mechanic was altering the front wing with his fingers? because I can't see anything else in his hands.

It seems unrealistic to me. And even if true, what's the point of the 2 clicks on the front wing if the mechanic can't instantly see the data? I want to know the importance of using 2 clicks front wing to the aiding of the pitcrew. Where does it meet?

Edited by Harry, 13 March 2013 - 03:27.


#1107 alfa1

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 03:48

Good picture, but do you think that mechanic was altering the front wing with his fingers? because I can't see anything else in his hands.

It seems unrealistic to me. And even if true, what's the point of the 2 clicks on the front wing if the mechanic can't instantly see the data? I want to know the importance of using 2 clicks front wing to the aiding of the pitcrew. Where does it meet?



A "click" would probably be an informal unit that the driver and race engineer know from testing/practise, and it probably means "half a turn".

The page at this link HERE has an image of Massa doing a pitstop, and on either side of the front wing, mechanics can be seen making an adjustment.
They're using battery powered electric drills that can be preprogrammed to only turn the required distance.
If you click on the top image, you can also then select "enlarge" to see the detail.

Edit - a cropped bit...
Posted Image

Edited by alfa1, 13 March 2013 - 03:51.


#1108 Kalmake

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 12:58

It was FIA regulations from 1998-2007 to have grooved tires. Was intended to like said above, reduce speeds by reducing grip, but aero advancements quickly replaced any speed lost by the tire changed. Rules in 2010 narrowed the front tires to take away grip and again slow the car down. Again, it really did not do much as it was quickly compensated by the engineers.


1998-2008.

Before grooves fronts had been narrower than the rules would have allowed so in 1998 manufacturers compensated by making them wider. Then in 1999 FIA added fourth groove to fronts. 2010 move to narrower fronts wasn't to reduce speed, but to give better front to rear balance. Wide fronts were gripping too much without grooves.

Sorry to nitpick, but it's wrong to say that the "speed lost was replaced" just because the cars weren't slower than previous year. They were slower than what they would have been and that's the goal. Especially during the Michelin vs Bridgestone years cornering speeds would have been much higher without grooves.

The question was about 2007. FIA signed the contract to make Bridgestone the sole supplier from 2007. The sport could have agreed then to get rid of the grooves, without making tires any faster. Reducing cornering speeds was the original reason but it wasn't valid after tire wars were ended.

#1109 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 17:18

Very good yet again, but still, what did the pit crew change on his front wing (after the radio message) and how did they change it?

EDIT:

Good picture, but do you think that mechanic was altering the front wing with his fingers? because I can't see anything else in his hands.

It seems unrealistic to me. And even if true, what's the point of the 2 clicks on the front wing if the mechanic can't instantly see the data? I want to know the importance of using 2 clicks front wing to the aiding of the pitcrew. Where does it meet?


In this video from 2007 you can see guys adjusting the front wing:
And here a more recent one:
Posted Image

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 13 March 2013 - 17:19.


#1110 Clatter

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 17:27

Very good yet again, but still, what did the pit crew change on his front wing (after the radio message) and how did they change it?

EDIT:

Good picture, but do you think that mechanic was altering the front wing with his fingers? because I can't see anything else in his hands.

It seems unrealistic to me. And even if true, what's the point of the 2 clicks on the front wing if the mechanic can't instantly see the data? I want to know the importance of using 2 clicks front wing to the aiding of the pitcrew. Where does it meet?


The data has already been gained via testing and simulations. They know what their current settings are and what to expect from changing the wing by set amounts.

#1111 ApexMouse

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 17:32

Must...Stop...Watching...

#1112 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 17:45

Must...Stop...Watching...


Yeah, it's hypnotic.

#1113 benzine

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 19:02

In this video from 2007 you can see guys adjusting the front wing:
And here a more recent one:
Posted Image


this is the most beautiful pitstop i have ever seen

#1114 MirNyet

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 19:32

Thank you, but what are the foils? Could you use that picture above to show me? And how would they have made the effect in the pit stop? What would they have done to complete the change of the '2 clicks front wing' steering wheel setting? I don't think they'd have time to get the drill out :lol:


Not to contradict, but as I say the race was 2007, two years before 2009. So what's the deal?



I think others have done a wonderful job of pointing out how they are adjusted. To answer your other question - the effect a change would have is in moving the balance of the car forward or back. If the car is understeering for instance, increasing the angle of attack of the front wing would give more downforce on the front, moving the balance forward and could, if done right, stop the understeer.

The reason this happens is that the car changes its balance during the race. Fuel burning off, the tires and possible damage to the car alter its handling and the car that finishes the race may not quite feel or handle the same as the car that started it. So, small tweaks are quite common during pitstops.



#1115 SpartanChas

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 19:39

What effect does too much front wing have? Just more drag?

Would the driver know he has too much wing?

Edited by SpartanChas, 13 March 2013 - 19:39.


#1116 HaydenFan

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 19:39

The data has already been gained via testing and simulations. They know what their current settings are and what to expect from changing the wing by set amounts.


Yeah, it's data they know from the wind tunnel and other testing. It would be a sense of feel by Massa and Smedley.

What effect does too much front wing have? Just more drag?

Would the driver know he has too much wing?


The driver would know if he/she had too much from win in the car. The most noticeable characteristics would be that the car develops more oversteer and like said, too much drag, causing the car to go slower along the longer straights.

Edited by HaydenFan, 13 March 2013 - 19:42.


#1117 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 19:41

What effect does too much front wing have? Just more drag?

Would the driver know he has too much wing?


He'd know within one corner, too much front end grip and it feels like it wants to spin constantly.

#1118 Nahnever

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 19:45

Hi, can anyone tell me what the flap just over the visor, where Petronas is written, is for? Also what is the purpose of the three hooks on the top of the helmet for?

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#1119 midgrid

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 19:49

I believe the "flap" is the xylon visor strip that was introduced to improve helmet safety after Massa's accident in 2009. The "hooks" are air vents.

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#1120 HaydenFan

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 19:49

Those top "hooks" are actually ventilation ports.

#1121 Nahnever

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 19:50

Thanks Guys :kiss:

#1122 CSquared

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 21:17

Posted Image

What are the two dudes in the middle doing?

#1123 eronrules

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 21:30

What are the two dudes in the middle doing?


holding the car steady during tire change.

#1124 Risil

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 22:01

What are the two dudes in the middle doing?


Whispering sweet nothings in Fernando's ear.

"Felipe is slower than you... Felipe is slower than you..."

Edited by Risil, 13 March 2013 - 22:02.


#1125 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 22:54

What are the two dudes in the middle doing?


What you do in your workplace when your supervisor is close and you have nothing to do: pretend you´re doing something. :p

#1126 FPV GTHO

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 04:19

The term "passive DRS" really bugs me. It implies a connection with the "Drag Reduction System" that was brought in with the 2011 rules, when really it's a trick that could be used on any winged car ever. It's really confusing.

We don't say that 2010's F-ducted Mclaren had DRS, so "passive DRS" should be inadmissible too.


Theres definately some confusion going on and wrong names being used.

All of these systems fall under "Drag Reduction Device", however from that theres:
F-Ducts (actively triggered by driver closing a hole in an air tube with air pressure as a mechanism)
Passive F-Duct (triggered by air pressure from a certain speed instead of driver)
DRS (triggered by the driver with electronics and hydraulics as a mechanism)
Double DRS (an F duct that is triggered by the DRS. When the top flap opens, it exposes a hole in the endplate that would otherwise be covered. Air enters here and blows another wing element like an F-Duct would)

So a passive DRS simply doesnt exist as DRS was the system the FIA introduced when they outlawed active F-Duct systems. Now they've also outlawed Double DRS.

#1127 Kalmake

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 06:56

What effect does too much front wing have? Just more drag?

Would the driver know he has too much wing?


Front wing adjustment has little effect on drag, because that air was going to "hit" the car anyway.

#1128 FPV GTHO

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:12

It can affect the rest of the flow over the car though and cost them downforce somewhere else.

#1129 Clatter

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:44

Front wing adjustment has little effect on drag, because that air was going to "hit" the car anyway.


Incorrect. If you increase down force you increase drag fourfold.

#1130 eronrules

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:48

why is pit stops are called 'PIT' stop??? why not service stop???

#1131 One

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:49

why is pit stops are called 'PIT' stop??? why not service stop???

'cause it sounds cool, just exactly as racing car should stop at the pit nor gas station.


Is it possible to buy a team after it gone bust with the entry for the coming year? Must it be bought via public auction, or could it be negotiated directly with the bank?

#1132 FPV GTHO

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:50

Incorrect. If you increase down force you increase drag fourfold.

That's not a blanket rule. In general under body and front aero is more efficient that rear aero.

#1133 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:59

why is pit stops are called 'PIT' stop??? why not service stop???


Traditionally (before hydraulic platforms) you'd put the car on top of a pit to work on the underside.
Posted Image

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 14 March 2013 - 12:07.


#1134 alfa1

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:24

Traditionally (before hydraulic platforms) you'd put the car on top of a pit to work on the underside.



Maybe its origins are in railway work then.

I just did a search of old newspapers on http://trove.nla.gov.au and the earliest reference I can find comes from 1917, so the term was introduced quite early.
Mulford lost his position on account of two short pit stops within 15 miles of the finish.

And an earlier one from 1913...
I calculated that if I had to change two tires and fill all tanks I coulnt not lose more than four minutes at the pits: this still left me with a margin.

Edited by alfa1, 14 March 2013 - 13:27.


#1135 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:35

I wonder why that is. I don't consider holding a low fixed speed a driver skill that should differentiate winners from losers

Actually, it is, and here's why:

Pit road announced speed limit is X (varies based on track due to tightness of pit road).
Penalties are only assessed at X+5 MPH.
maintenance of pit road speed is entirely manual and under control of the driver only (right foot plus RPM gauge).

At the beginning of the race, the field is split into two groups (P 1-22 and P 22-43 or so). At the head of each group, a pace car drives at EXACTLY pit road speed.
This is literally the ONLY chance that drivers have to calibrate their tachometers! Imagine if you're P 20!

So the driver has to have a good feel for not only what pit road speed is, but what pit road speed plus 4 MPH is.

That's why so many drivers are busted for speeding--because they are always looking to get everything they can (imagine the advantage you'd get, especially under yellow flag conditions, if you could go 3-4 MPH faster than other drivers).

So being able to find that sweet spot of X+4 is something every driver is trying to get every race, and sometimes they overcook it and get X+7 and other times they are at X+2 and are complaining that drivers are passing them on pit road and not getting penalized.

There is even more to it than that (speeding is measured by timing of segments and in the past couple of years drivers have learned to play games with this) but the above alone shows how driver skill and judgement can make a difference.

#1136 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:40

Yeah there's way more skill than pressing a button and going down the pit lane with an awful sounding engine.

#1137 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 13:18

Maybe its origins are in railway work then.

I just did a search of old newspapers on http://trove.nla.gov.au and the earliest reference I can find comes from 1917, so the term was introduced quite early.
Mulford lost his position on account of two short pit stops within 15 miles of the finish.


:up: Good work.
Edit: And of course pits are still a normal thing for rail workers.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 14 March 2013 - 13:27.


#1138 SpartanChas

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 19:55

Why did they get rid of red T cams?

Just not the same any more.

Edited by SpartanChas, 15 March 2013 - 19:56.


#1139 flatlander48

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 00:58

Yeah there's way more skill than pressing a button and going down the pit lane with an awful sounding engine.


Different skill. In F-1 the trick is to get sufficiently slowed down before the timing line. Often folks are right on the verge of spinning out.

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#1140 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:05

They really aren't though, and certainly no more than any other series. And trying to stop a NASCAR from those speeds is a bit slidey.

#1141 flatlander48

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:11

They really aren't though, and certainly no more than any other series. And trying to stop a NASCAR from those speeds is a bit slidey.


Look at the track maps and where the entrance to pit road begins. Every track is not a superspeedway.

#1142 John Player

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:12

Why did they get rid of red T cams?

Just not the same any more.


I think it has something to do with the change to the hd cameras this year.

#1143 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:19

Look at the track maps and where the entrance to pit road begins. Every track is not a superspeedway.


Ive seen more people miss the pit entry or over shoot the entry in NASCAR than any other series. And that's just on the ovals.

#1144 Vibe

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:40

More stupid question from me :wave:



1) Why do you have to use the same setup for quali and race?What is the point,these are two events held on different days,the conditions can change obviously...Even if they don't,what do they achieve with this rule?

2) Why do you have to start the race on the exact same set of tyres you qualified on?

3) Why is the testing so limited?Are the teams allowed to test on their own aside brom Jerez and Barcelona?

#1145 Ravenak

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:26

Why have McLaren named some cars MP4/XX (with a slash) and others MP4-XX (with a hyphen) alternatively?

Edited by Ravenak, 16 March 2013 - 11:27.


#1146 Dolph

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:28

Yeah there's way more skill than pressing a button and going down the pit lane with an awful sounding engine.


So? There's more skill to cooking up a dinner than buying it from a restaurant. Doesn't mean race winners should be judge on that, does it!?

#1147 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:38

Why not? Pitstops are part of the process, and in NASCAR they aren't as automated as in other series. Give the guys some respect where they've actually earned it.

#1148 Fubaaarrr

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:01

Why have McLaren named some cars MP4/XX (with a slash) and others MP4-XX (with a hyphen) alternatively?


Not 100% sure, but I guess they wanted make a little change after Marlboro sponsorship ended with MP4/11 and and West sponsorship started with MP4-12. MP4 used to stand for Marlboro Project 4 when Marlboro was their sponsor. Since MP4-12 it has meant McLaren Project 4.


#1149 Clatter

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:10

More stupid question from me :wave:



1) Why do you have to use the same setup for quali and race?What is the point,these are two events held on different days,the conditions can change obviously...Even if they don't,what do they achieve with this rule?

2) Why do you have to start the race on the exact same set of tyres you qualified on?

3) Why is the testing so limited?Are the teams allowed to test on their own aside brom Jerez and Barcelona?


Cost saving and shaking up the field.

#1150 Clatter

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:11

That's not a blanket rule. In general under body and front aero is more efficient that rear aero.


Yes it is, and has nothing to do with efficiency.