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S.Q.T. (stupid question thread)


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#1551 SUPRAF1

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 06:01

What happens to unused tyres (e.g. Wets on a completely dry weekend). Are they reused for the next GP or destroyed and recycled.

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#1552 Kalmake

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 06:04

The trucks are too heavy. They have to use a speed limit, which is a bummer for a racing series.

#1553 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:56

What happens to unused tyres (e.g. Wets on a completely dry weekend). Are they reused for the next GP or destroyed and recycled.


They are certainly recycled, but their destiny after that is a bit unknown. The story is two-fold: first, Pirelli are being environmentally friendly and second, they don't want to lose a single tire investigated by competition, so they are careful. As far as I know the material after recycling is just being used to make another rubber articles. Others are burnt to help power the recycling plant, somewhere in UK.

Some F1 studios are supplied with studio tires, just like us, but they are hard as cement.
Posted Image - it's large and heavy

Edited by kvarbanov, 05 June 2013 - 11:03.


#1554 Cavani

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:06

so what does an F1 studio do ?

#1555 Andrew Hope

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:18

All the old Pirellis are recycled and made into condoms. That way having only one tire manufacturer in F1 can screw us all twice.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 05 June 2013 - 11:18.


#1556 Kalmake

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:26

They are certainly recycled, but their destiny after that is a bit unknown. The story is two-fold: first, Pirelli are being environmentally friendly and second, they don't want to lose a single tire investigated by competition, so they are careful. As far as I know the material after recycling is just being used to make another rubber articles. Others are burnt to help power the recycling plant, somewhere in UK.

Some F1 studios are supplied with studio tires, just like us, but they are hard as cement.


All remaining tyres, both used and unused, are taken off their rims and then transported back to Didcot. When they arrive, the tyres are taken to a specialised plant where they are shredded and then burned at very high temperature in order to produce fuel for cement factories. The material produced in this process can also be used for road surfaces and other industrial applications. :)

Bringing a new batch for every race ensures consistent quality I suppose.

#1557 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:44

so what does an F1 studio do ?


It hosts a Formula 1 pre-race TV studio where you talk about what's important in F1 world, show videos about the upcoming race, discuss and analyze the updates teams have on the cars, and then comment the race. Sort of like what Kimi says: "You do it and then it's done".

@Andrew Hope - that was a good laugh.
@Kalmake - thanks for the clarification.

Edited by kvarbanov, 05 June 2013 - 11:45.


#1558 tjkoyen

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 16:22

All the old Pirellis are recycled and made into condoms. That way having only one tire manufacturer in F1 can screw us all twice.


Congratulations, you won the internet today. :up:

#1559 SpartanChas

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 18:29

Seems ridiculously wasteful that perfectly good tyres are shredded and burned. I'm talking about unused wet tyres of course. Shipping a load of wet tyres all the way to Abu Dhabi then all the way back to the uk to shred and burn them sounds crazy to me.

Edited by SpartanChas, 05 June 2013 - 18:30.


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#1560 Andrew Hope

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 22:58

Congratulations, you won the internet today. :up:


Why thank you. It was bound to happen sooner or later.


#1561 flatlander48

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:05

Seems ridiculously wasteful that perfectly good tyres are shredded and burned. I'm talking about unused wet tyres of course. Shipping a load of wet tyres all the way to Abu Dhabi then all the way back to the uk to shred and burn them sounds crazy to me.



Intellectual Property...

#1562 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:21

I thought wet tires were somewhat universal, could they not take them on to Brazil or whatever race was next?

#1563 EthanM

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:24

I thought wet tires were somewhat universal, could they not take them on to Brazil or whatever race was next?


the logistics are too complicated, plus the leadtimes don't always work out. I mean sure, they may reship Barcelona wet tyres to I don't know Hungary or whatever but when you get to the end of the season Pirelli need to have tyres ready for Brazil, they can't rely on the US tires not getting used and shipping them on

#1564 Clatter

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:34

the logistics are too complicated, plus the leadtimes don't always work out. I mean sure, they may reship Barcelona wet tyres to I don't know Hungary or whatever but when you get to the end of the season Pirelli need to have tyres ready for Brazil, they can't rely on the US tires not getting used and shipping them on


Not sure I understand that. There are only 2 types of wet tyres and they are the same for all races. So why can't they be shipped from one race to the next? The logistics shouldn't be an issue as they go from the race to the factory anyway, all that's needed is to store them before packaging up for the next race.

#1565 EthanM

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:39

Not sure I understand that. There are only 2 types of wet tyres and they are the same for all races. So why can't they be shipped from one race to the next? The logistics shouldn't be an issue as they go from the race to the factory anyway, all that's needed is to store them before packaging up for the next race.



Because .. the US Grand Prix is one week before the Brazilian Grand Prix. If the US Grand Prix is for any reason a wet race then there isn't enough time to manufacture and ship tyres to brazil, under normal circumstances they need about a month to manufacture and ship tyres. So if they don't manufacture and ship tyres to Brazil, if the US Grand Prix is wet then they will have no tyres in Brazil. So tyres are shipped to Brazil from the factory, irrespective of what happens to the US Grand Prix. Then the US Grand Prix tyres, if they don't get used, get shredded.

#1566 Fastcake

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:47

Because .. the US Grand Prix is one week before the Brazilian Grand Prix. If the US Grand Prix is for any reason a wet race then there isn't enough time to manufacture and ship tyres to brazil, under normal circumstances they need about a month to manufacture and ship tyres. So if they don't manufacture and ship tyres to Brazil, if the US Grand Prix is wet then they will have no tyres in Brazil. So tyres are shipped to Brazil from the factory, irrespective of what happens to the US Grand Prix. Then the US Grand Prix tyres, if they don't get used, get shredded.


But that doesn't explain why wet tyres can't be shipped from Bahrain, to say Monaco or a later race. You would of thought that would of been possible logistically.

#1567 EthanM

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:52

But that doesn't explain why wet tyres can't be shipped from Bahrain, to say Monaco or a later race. You would of thought that would of been possible logistically.


As far as I know they are reshipped, not directly, they return to the factory, they get checked then redeployed. I said so in my previous reply. But keep in mind, randomly some teams chose to run their installation laps for example on inters, those need to get discarded and "replaced" in the lot ... that's why they can't just say oh no rain in Bahrain, just ship all wet tyres to Monaco or whatever.

#1568 Clatter

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:54

As far as I know they are reshipped, not directly, they return to the factory, they get checked then redeployed. I said so in my previous reply. But keep in mind, randomly some teams chose to run their installation laps for example on inters, those need to get discarded and "replaced" in the lot ... that's why they can't just say oh no rain in Bahrain, just ship all wet tyres to Monaco or whatever.


I thought they could only fit the wets when the FIA declared the track wet.

Edit.
That might only apply to Q and the race.

Edited by Clatter, 05 June 2013 - 23:56.


#1569 EthanM

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:56

I thought they could only fit the wets when the FIA declared the track wet.


nope. There is a rule that says if the FIA declares the race wet before the start then they have to fit wet tyres (ie they can't gamble on slicks) but no, there is no restriction in the use of inters/wets.

#1570 Clatter

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 00:00

nope. There is a rule that says if the FIA declares the race wet before the start then they have to fit wet tyres (ie they can't gamble on slicks) but no, there is no restriction in the use of inters/wets.


Yes there is.

25.4
d) Prior to the start of the qualifying practice session intermediate and wet-weather tyres
may only be used after the track has been declared wet by the race director,
following
which intermediate, wet or dry-weather tyres may be used for the remainder of the
session.

I thought it applied to all sessions though.

#1571 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 00:12

the logistics are too complicated, plus the leadtimes don't always work out. I mean sure, they may reship Barcelona wet tyres to I don't know Hungary or whatever but when you get to the end of the season Pirelli need to have tyres ready for Brazil, they can't rely on the US tires not getting used and shipping them on


Okay, so you stagger the supply rotation. It seems ridiculous and unlikely that they'd take an entire batch of tires that haven't been touched and just shred them.

#1572 Brother Fox

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 00:35

And this is the cost saving era?

#1573 Kalmake

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 03:47

Shipping, laying in storage, mounting and dismounting might change the tyre. The factory might produce a slightly different tyre months later, even if they try to make them exactly same.

Green image doesn't seem to concern Pirelli as they agreed to make 2-3 stop tyres.

#1574 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 14:03

Are lapped cars allowed to keep racing each other after the lead car crosses the checkered flag?


For the purposes of determining your position, you're scored on your running position the next time you cross the line after the winner does. So, technically, you are still racing everybody on your lap until you cross the line, even after the leader does.

#1575 0thecougar

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 17:56

What are the rules if your car is crashed after the finish line?
Just thinking-imagine if you'd won the race, but the team knew you were low on fuel, under weight or you'd changed something on the car to give it an extra advantage outside the rules...If the driver goes over the finish line then 'runs wide' on to the grass, losing control and ripping a couple of corners off-how do they check the car fits within the rules?

#1576 SpartanChas

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 18:00

It's ok to stop the car once you're past the chequered flag and low on fuel anyway, no point in crashing for that. Steward should catch any illegalities before the race too.

If Perez or Kobayashi had won Australia 2011 and crashed on the in-lap I have no idea what would happen as their illegal rear wing obviously slipped past everything.

#1577 HaydenFan

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 18:13

What are the rules if your car is crashed after the finish line?
Just thinking-imagine if you'd won the race, but the team knew you were low on fuel, under weight or you'd changed something on the car to give it an extra advantage outside the rules...If the driver goes over the finish line then 'runs wide' on to the grass, losing control and ripping a couple of corners off-how do they check the car fits within the rules?


Not much different than Piquet Jr. It would be a disqualification and a fine, and potentially it could go further in banning for races.

But it is common knowledge as to why drivers run off line to pick up rubber and gain the few ounces of weight for the car.

#1578 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 21:12

Not much different than Piquet Jr. It would be a disqualification and a fine, and potentially it could go further in banning for races.

They'd have to prove it tho.

#1579 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 21:14

With parc ferme rules, would you make it past post-qual checks?

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#1580 EthanM

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 21:19

With parc ferme rules, would you make it past post-qual checks?


yeah park ferme allows for repairs to accident damage

#1581 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 21:32

No I mean if you win a race with an illegal car, presumably you qualified with an illegal car. So wouldn't you get busted Saturday afternoon?

#1582 V3TT3L

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 21:35

What are the rules if your car is crashed after the finish line?
Just thinking-imagine if you'd won the race, but the team knew you were low on fuel, under weight or you'd changed something on the car to give it an extra advantage outside the rules...If the driver goes over the finish line then 'runs wide' on to the grass, losing control and ripping a couple of corners off-how do they check the car fits within the rules?

JJ won Daytona this year and went to the gras to celebrate it.
It destroyed the botton front of the car and they [Nascar] could never measure if it was too low.

People said it was Nascar's perfect crime. ;)

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by V3TT3L, 10 June 2013 - 21:36.


#1583 wrcva

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 00:09

Why didn't F1 hit both North America venues - Canada & USA - consecutively, a week apart or something ?

Scheduling issue or shipping the circus is cheap enough to not to worry about it?

#1584 HaydenFan

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 00:10

No I mean if you win a race with an illegal car, presumably you qualified with an illegal car. So wouldn't you get busted Saturday afternoon?


You have the fuel issue though in F1. Maybe not an illegal part on the car, but you to keep that liter or whatever extra in the car. What if you, as a team knew you used too much fuel? Then you tell your driver to bin it in a wall, or run off course and break a part (to remove more weight and thus make any argument about the car being underweight void).

Which brings up another question. What if a car loses a part of the car (like a winglet), and that takes the car below the minimum weight. Would that be a breach of rules? They didn't knowingly cheat and damage their car to cause the underweight issue, but their car was underweight. Would be much similar to Jimmie Johnson trashing his car in the post-race celebration.

Why didn't F1 hit both North America venues - Canada & USA - consecutively, a week apart or something ?

Scheduling issue or shipping the circus is cheap enough to not to worry about it?


Ever been to Texas in mid-June? Not the best place temperature wise. Does congest the schedule in the middle of the season though as well, and plus, next year we'll see the race in New Jersey (I'm going to call it Port Imperial out of the fact that it sounds better) come after or before (not locked down) the Canadian GP.

Edited by HaydenFan, 11 June 2013 - 00:13.


#1585 EthanM

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 00:40

You have the fuel issue though in F1. Maybe not an illegal part on the car, but you to keep that liter or whatever extra in the car. What if you, as a team knew you used too much fuel? Then you tell your driver to bin it in a wall, or run off course and break a part (to remove more weight and thus make any argument about the car being underweight void).

Which brings up another question. What if a car loses a part of the car (like a winglet), and that takes the car below the minimum weight. Would that be a breach of rules? They didn't knowingly cheat and damage their car to cause the underweight issue, but their car was underweight. Would be much similar to Jimmie Johnson trashing his car in the post-race celebration.



Ever been to Texas in mid-June? Not the best place temperature wise. Does congest the schedule in the middle of the season though as well, and plus, next year we'll see the race in New Jersey (I'm going to call it Port Imperial out of the fact that it sounds better) come after or before (not locked down) the Canadian GP.


there is no minimum fuel requirement for the race, only for qualifying, all there is for the race is minimum weight. And yes, like I said before you are allowed to repair accident damage, which includes replacing parts missing from the car. If it wasn't half the people that finished races with broken wings and whatever appendages would end up getting thrown out.

Edited by EthanM, 11 June 2013 - 00:40.


#1586 TC3000

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:24

some comments in regards to the tyre issue (reuse of rain tyres)

- keep in mind that Pirelli transports the tyres and the teams transport the wheels/rims
- the teams are limited in terms of space and weight for their freight ( they would not be able to just transport 20 sets of complete wheels from time to time)
- I'm not sure the teams are allowed to keep some tyres outside of race weekends, as this would open the way for some testing (not just track testing, but also private flat track tyre testing)
- they will get "show" / transport tyres, to roll the cars around and for display and filming purpose etc. (special tyres for straight line aero testing too)
- in order to react quickly to changing weather conditions, rain and intermediate tyres will be mounted before the weekend in any case for all the teams
- ergo, they need to be dismounted before the teams ship back their wheels/rims per airfreight
- it's possible that F1 tyres can't be "remounted", I'm not 100% sure if this is the case with the Pirelli's, but that has been the case with MICHELIN, for safety reasons and in some cases technical reasons.
- I don't know if Pirelli does it, but sometimes these tyres get "glued" (use of a special mounting agent) onto the rims, to prevent the tyre from rotating on the rim, demounting leads to damage in the bead area of the tyre, making the tyre useless/scrap, and would prevent a "reuse" in any case
- as another poster mentioned, if teams would be allowed to keep and unused tyre mounted onto the rim (testing/transport issues aside), they feel that they would be disadvantaged compared to some other teams, if they would have to use an "old(er)" (batch) tyre compared to another team, which could use a "new(er)" (batch) tyre and vice versa. ( I have seen this discussion happen, in another race series with controlled tyres, where it was found that some "old(er)" batch rain tyres offered better performance, even so that the manufacturer claimed that there was no change in specification).
- the teams don't have to buy/pay for their tyres on an per unit base, it's an bulk/all in contract, yes this leaves the cost/waste issue on the manufacturers side (tyres), and is one reason why they pushed for limited amounts of sets and why we have no more "Monsun" (heavy rain) tyres. Imagine how much "waste" their was during a tyre war, when both rain & dry tyres were developed an a constant basis and more compounds were available.
- Pirelli, as per their contract can't sell the tyres to other series/privateers (BOSS series etc.), so they will even have to scrap unused & unmounted tyres which they may bring back from a race weekend, especially rain tyres. If it is a highly developed tyre they would not sell it anyway in oder to protect some know how and IP, but that is mainly the case in tyre war situations / open competition.


#1587 TC3000

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:43

there is no minimum fuel requirement for the race, only for qualifying, all there is for the race is minimum weight.


I think this is not entirely correct, you still have to be able to give a fuel sample (minimum fuel requirement), but you don't have to drive the car into parc ferme under it's own power, so if you are short on fuel, you can stop after the line ( after qualifying, you have to drive the car into p.f.)
The minimum weight is "(semi) dry weight" anyway, meaning the car is measured without fuel (that was what got BAR/Honda into trouble with there "secret" fuel tank inside the tank), therefore the fuel weight/consumption does not comes into this
as for the parts, yes, this is correct, you are allowed to replace a broken/missing part with an equal/new one, if it was accident damage, if the part "just fell off" this maybe different, especially if it happens more then once.

brake wear is not an excuse, the team has to account for it, tyres (wear /pickup on tyres) can become an issue, as the rules can be applied in a way, that you have to pass minimum weight on a new set of slicks
normally this is not and issue, as the wear will be offset by the pickup collected, but in case the car is very borderline or happens to have "picked up" a piece of tungsten ballast etc. on the tread, the technical delegate can ask them to mount a set of new slicks to check for minimum weight.


#1588 metz

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 14:36

Why didn't F1 hit both North America venues - Canada & USA - consecutively, a week apart or something ?

Scheduling issue or shipping the circus is cheap enough to not to worry about it?

Shipping costs are not much different. It all goes by air anyway.
They originally tried to put the 2 races closer together but weather was a problem.
To have a proper race weekend, June is too hot for Texas and November is too cold for Canada.

#1589 Atreiu

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 18:01

Why don't they allow tyre wars with the limited testing in 2014?
There is a limit to how many tyres you can try with only 8 days of in season testing in 2014.



#1590 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 18:09

I dont think there's any reason you aren't allowed to? I don't think any tire company wants to. Bit hard to launch a competitive F1 tire at this stage.

#1591 Clatter

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 18:14

I dont think there's any reason you aren't allowed to? I don't think any tire company wants to. Bit hard to launch a competitive F1 tire at this stage.


Apart from the FIA not wanting it hence the single supplier contract?


#1592 g1n

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 22:46

Apart from the FIA not wanting it hence the single supplier contract?


That is because Pirelli have something in their contract saying they only signed to be the sole tyre supplier. They have said this themselves on many occasions. Maybe this is why Bernie or who ever is not rushing to extend Pirelli's contract for next year as they are possible negotiation with other tyre sources to maybe have more than 1.

#1593 HaydenFan

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 00:33

Second a major tire maker is serious, we'll see more than one tire maker. They seemed to go to the one make spec rules when Michelin backed out leaving only Bridgestone. Then when they decided they didn't want anything to do with F1, it was the same time testing bans and extreme cost cutting was all the rage, and hence they kept the trend of one tire supplier. Hench, we have Pirelli. And the issues presented are not due to Pirelli, but the FIA and FOM and who runs F1. But until a serious tire maker comes forth (and Hankook and others being mentioned are not it. Think a return of Michelin, Bridgestone, Goodyear.) I don't see the FIA changing their minds.




#1594 noikeee

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 00:38

That is because Pirelli have something in their contract saying they only signed to be the sole tyre supplier. They have said this themselves on many occasions.


Makes sense, they'd be utterly insane to have gone into this without such a clause. They're the first tyre company ever to make a F1 tyre not for maximum performance, but designed to lose performance on purpose. If they suddenly had a new competitor going for performance, they'd basically have to start from scratch with a whole new design, and throw away most of the F1 data they already have which wouldn't really be relevant.

#1595 Sin

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:29



anybody got pictures to how the models looked after they were done?

#1596 blackhand2010

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:39

Really dumb question: Why do manufacturers put swirly paint jobs on new cars (see the new Porsche LMP1 pics for an example)?
I've always assumed it's to help hide any design innovations from the naked eye, but given the level of photographic manipulation that can be done after the photo is taken these days, it seems fairly redundant...

Or am I missing something obvious...?

#1597 Beamer

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 13:02

Really dumb question: Why do manufacturers put swirly paint jobs on new cars (see the new Porsche LMP1 pics for an example)?
I've always assumed it's to help hide any design innovations from the naked eye, but given the level of photographic manipulation that can be done after the photo is taken these days, it seems fairly redundant...

Or am I missing something obvious...?


Ever considered that they just think it looks good?

#1598 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 13:05

No it's a form of dazzle camouflage. Whether it's effective or not I can't say, but that's why they do it. And the German manufacturers seem to like that black and white complex look.

#1599 7MGTEsup

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 13:54

Really dumb question: Why do manufacturers put swirly paint jobs on new cars (see the new Porsche LMP1 pics for an example)?
I've always assumed it's to help hide any design innovations from the naked eye, but given the level of photographic manipulation that can be done after the photo is taken these days, it seems fairly redundant...

Or am I missing something obvious...?


No, you pretty much nailed it. It's to break up the lines of the car to the naked eye, but like you said is pretty redundent today.

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#1600 ApexMouse

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 13:55

Ross is spot on. Check every car pre launch testing pics. Even jaguar and ferrari do it.