3516 replies to this topic

### #1951 SpartanChas

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:21

Conor Daly got in trouble for doing donuts in GP3 this year. It is not allowed.

### #1952 V3TT3L

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:31

Hello

My fiancée is doing a project involving Formula 1 Lap Time analysis, and she is using the Lap Time Analysis pdf from the FIA.

For all drivers their first laps are around 13 minutes, which clearly isn't the correct lap time. I'm aware that she can use other websites for an accurate time for Lap 1, but I was wondering how the FIA came to 13 minutes. I'm guessing that it's the time for Lap 1, the formation lap, and about 10 minutes before the Formation Lap? I don't know for sure, so I'm wondering what happens, do the FIA just turn on their timing systems at the 10 minute signal mark?

Thanks

What I did once to calculate the first lap was tatking the total race time [since the red light was off] minus all other laps [except the first one].

I remember I got a reasonable result.

The last drivers of the grid had a much higher 1st lap time due to their distance to the red light.

In some tracks, the finish line does not coincide with the starting line.

### #1953 AidenGeek

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:38

Possibly from the point the Pit Lane closes.

I thought this initally, but doesn't the pit lane close 15 minutes before the formation lap? That would lead to a time way above 13 minutes, plus each drivers time would be different as they all leave the pit lane at different times.

Each drivers time was pretty much the same, give or take a few seconds - which I assume is the difference between each cars first lap time.

### #1954 AidenGeek

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:39

What I did once to calculate the first lap was tatking the total race time [since the red light was off] minus all other laps [except the first one].

I remember I got a reasonable result.

The last drivers of the grid had a much higher 1st lap time due to their distance to the red light.

In some tracks, the finish line does not coincide with the starting line.

This would work and calculating the 1st lap time isn't really an issue, I'm just more curious as to how the FIA get their 13 minute time, that's all

### #1955 skyfolker

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 23:14

Hello

My fiancée is doing a project involving Formula 1 Lap Time analysis, and she is using the Lap Time Analysis pdf from the FIA.

For all drivers their first laps are around 13 minutes, which clearly isn't the correct lap time. I'm aware that she can use other websites for an accurate time for Lap 1, but I was wondering how the FIA came to 13 minutes. I'm guessing that it's the time for Lap 1, the formation lap, and about 10 minutes before the Formation Lap? I don't know for sure, so I'm wondering what happens, do the FIA just turn on their timing systems at the 10 minute signal mark?

Thanks

First lap time is local time of the day (hours:minutes:seconds) in FIA's Lap Time analysis pdf,and it can be 13 hours(what you may thought of as minutes) plus few minutes only for British Gp and US Gp (and maybe some others),but I could be wrong.

### #1956 Exb

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 00:02

I expect the stewards at the last race would try not to investigate incidents after the race but instead hand out a drive through so nothing would be carried over. I guess a team mistake (pitstop) would apply to the team and would probably be a fine or a penalty during the race.
I think the new "penalty points system" they are bringing in next year will carry over to a new season as the points stay on the drivers license for 12 months.

If a driver gets a grid penalty in the last race of the season, is it carried over to the following season?

I'm guessing that if Webber (or any other driver not racing in F1 next year) gets a grid penalty in Brazil, it's just forgotten about

Also, if a team make a pitstop mistake (loose wheel) in Brazil, and their driver is switching teams next year, will it be the driver or the teams new driver who'll have the penalty, assuming it gets carried forward

### #1957 AidenGeek

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 01:26

First lap time is local time of the day (hours:minutes:seconds) in FIA's Lap Time analysis pdf,and it can be 13 hours(what you may thought of as minutes) plus few minutes only for British Gp and US Gp (and maybe some others),but I could be wrong.

Ahh, of course! I'm guessing that's the time of day that the driver finished their first lap, since there is a 11 second difference between first and last. Thank you!

Two more stupid questions:

Has a driver ever announced their retirement and gone on to win their final race?

And, looking at the lap times for the 2013 British Grand Prix, it is faster by a few seconds to finish the lap via the pit lane. So theoretically, if two cars are battling on the last lap for the win, would it be a good idea for the car in 2nd place to enter through the pitlane and win the race? Are there any rules against this?

Edited by AidenGeek, 25 September 2013 - 01:32.

### #1958 TooTroublesome

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 07:22

This has probably been asked many times before but is it against a rule for a driver to wear a HUD similar to Google Glass?
From what I've read, it's uninttusive and you just look top right to see the display.

real time tyre temps, lap count, position, strategy, split timings could all be on it. If anyone has ever played a racing game you see what I mean.
Forza Motorsport games has real time telementry data you can view from the car.

Thanks!

### #1959 Nonesuch

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:26

Has a driver ever announced their retirement and gone on to win their final race?

I looked around a bit and couldn't find a driver with a sizeable amount of wins (10+) that has won his final F1 race.

There are sure to be some Indianapolis drivers who might technically qualify: Lee Wallard for example, who drove the 1950 and 1951 Indianapolis 500 and won in the second, and 'last', year.

Edited by Nonesuch, 25 September 2013 - 08:30.

### #1960 Spa One

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:38

This has probably been asked many times before but is it against a rule for a driver to wear a HUD similar to Google Glass?
From what I've read, it's uninttusive and you just look top right to see the display.

real time tyre temps, lap count, position, strategy, split timings could all be on it. If anyone has ever played a racing game you see what I mean.
Forza Motorsport games has real time telementry data you can view from the car.

Thanks!

Michael Schumacher used a helmet that displayed variable electronic information on the inside of his visor. It was during the mid 00's at Ferrari, maybe 2004.

### #1961 TimRTC

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:47

If a driver gets a grid penalty in the last race of the season, is it carried over to the following season?

I'm guessing that if Webber (or any other driver not racing in F1 next year) gets a grid penalty in Brazil, it's just forgotten about

Webber would get a 10 place grid penalty for the Six Hours of Silverstone 2014 instead...

### #1962 TimRTC

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:55

This has probably been asked many times before but is it against a rule for a driver to wear a HUD similar to Google Glass?
From what I've read, it's uninttusive and you just look top right to see the display.

real time tyre temps, lap count, position, strategy, split timings could all be on it.

At present, two-way telemetry is banned in F1, so teams couldn't use a HUD system to display strategy etc. Things like tyre temperatures would probably be giving a driver more information than they need - the pit wall monitor these, allowing for track temperature, tyre wear etc. and can radio the driver when there is a problem.

Ultimately I also doubt there is any real demand for such a system - since most of these drivers have been in open-wheelers since they were teenagers, they are so used to looking down at the usual display they can do it without losing focus on the race. So I doubt it would be worth the investment unless drivers were trained in it from day one.

### #1963 Nonesuch

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:13

If a driver gets a grid penalty in the last race of the season, is it carried over to the following season?

I'm guessing that if Webber (or any other driver not racing in F1 next year) gets a grid penalty in Brazil, it's just forgotten about

Also, if a team make a pitstop mistake (loose wheel) in Brazil, and their driver is switching teams next year, will it be the driver or the teams new driver who'll have the penalty, assuming it gets carried forward

I think technically it would carry over into the following season, but practically the stewards would probably want to tie up all loose ends during the last event of the season and opt to hand him a driver-through or stop&go-penalty during the race (or a time penalty if the race has already finished). There is some history behind this: in 2002, following a collision with Pedro de la Rosa at the Italian Grand Prix, Felipe Massa was the first driver to receive a a grid penalty for the next event. This wording of the penalty opened the door for Sauber to replace Massa during the next event, the Grand Prix of the United States, with Heinz-Harald Frentzen. Since Frentzen was not Massa, but the race at Indianapolis was the next event on the F1 calender, Sauber avoided having to take the penalty. When Massa returned in Japan, which was not the next even following the Italian Grand Prix, he could start from his normal qualifying position. In the current sporting regulations, Article 16.4 e) therefore describes a grid penalty as 'A drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.'

Penalties for (dangerous) behaviour during, or resulting from, a pitstop are, in recent years, usually given to the team.

Edited by Nonesuch, 25 September 2013 - 09:14.

### #1964 Thunderpants

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:18

I've never heard of the stewards imposing a penalty for the next season. Should the incident require a grid penalty as a punishment, I presume they hand out a fine instead.

i think Senna got a suspended 3 race ban at suzuka 1993. It was carried over to 1994. anybody correct me if i'm wrong

### #1965 Nonesuch

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:23

i think Senna got a suspended 3 race ban at suzuka 1993. It was carried over to 1994. anybody correct me if i'm wrong

Correct, though it was a two race ban. Senna received ban, suspended for six months, because he punched Eddie Irvine.

Edited by Nonesuch, 25 September 2013 - 09:24.

### #1966 DampMongoose

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 10:00

Has a driver ever announced their retirement and gone on to win their final race?

Not sure as to when he officially spoke of his professional sportscar retirement (either before or after the final race) but Jacky Ickx won his final round in 1985.  I wonder given the issues arising from his involvement in Bellof's fatal crash at Spa earlier in that year if he had announced that he would retire at the end of the season?

### #1967 Youichi

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 10:24

And, looking at the lap times for the 2013 British Grand Prix, it is faster by a few seconds to finish the lap via the pit lane. So theoretically, if two cars are battling on the last lap for the win, would it be a good idea for the car in 2nd place to enter through the pitlane and win the race? Are there any rules against this?

Charlie Whiting stated that it would be considered as "leaving the track and gaining an advantage" so would get a drivethrough/25 second penalty.

### #1968 scheivlak

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:19

Has a driver ever announced their retirement and gone on to win their final race?

Phil Hill, BOAC 500, 1967 I think (together with Mike Spence in the Chaparral)

### #1969 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:54

Charlie Whiting stated that it would be considered as "leaving the track and gaining an advantage" so would get a drivethrough/25 second penalty.

Wouldn't that definition kind of apply to most pitstops?

### #1970 Darren1

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 12:37

Wouldn't that definition kind of apply to most pitstops

Wasn't the rule closed after Schumacher took at drive through on the last lap, Silverstone 1998??

Back in the day when Ferrari did what they wanted

### #1971 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 12:48

I think technically it would carry over into the following season, but practically the stewards would probably want to tie up all loose ends during the last event of the season and opt to hand him a driver-through or stop&go-penalty during the race (or a time penalty if the race has already finished). There is some history behind this: in 2002, following a collision with Pedro de la Rosa at the Italian Grand Prix, Felipe Massa was the first driver to receive a a grid penalty for the next event. This wording of the penalty opened the door for Sauber to replace Massa during the next event, the Grand Prix of the United States, with Heinz-Harald Frentzen. Since Frentzen was not Massa, but the race at Indianapolis was the next event on the F1 calender, Sauber avoided having to take the penalty. When Massa returned in Japan, which was not the next even following the Italian Grand Prix, he could start from his normal qualifying position. In the current sporting regulations, Article 16.4 e) therefore describes a grid penalty as 'A drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.'

Penalties for (dangerous) behaviour during, or resulting from, a pitstop are, in recent years, usually given to the team.

wow. yes, I'd forgotten about that.Ta

### #1972 E.B.

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 13:15

There are sure to be some Indianapolis drivers who might technically qualify: Lee Wallard for example, who drove the 1950 and 1951 Indianapolis 500 and won in the second, and 'last', year.

No, that doesn't count at all. Even in the slightest. Sam Hanks might be a better example, but even then I believe he only announced his retirement after winning (indeed that may well have been the deciding factor), and I think also drove in minor races later that season.

### #1973 Atreiu

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 14:56

Ahh, of course! I'm guessing that's the time of day that the driver finished their first lap, since there is a 11 second difference between first and last. Thank you!

Two more stupid questions:

Has a driver ever announced their retirement and gone on to win their final race?

And, looking at the lap times for the 2013 British Grand Prix, it is faster by a few seconds to finish the lap via the pit lane. So theoretically, if two cars are battling on the last lap for the win, would it be a good idea for the car in 2nd place to enter through the pitlane and win the race? Are there any rules against this?

Had Kenny Roberts annouced retirement before Imola 1983?

### #1974 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 16:20

Another question from me- you wouldn't believe I've been following F1 since the eighties, would you?

Some top teams say that they set the car up for the race rather than qually and suffer a bad grid position as a result, others set their car up more for the one lap and get a good grid place for Sunday. What do the back of the grid teams do? Do they set up their cars for the race? If they do,wouldn't they be better just setting their car up for qualifying to try to get ahead of a Williams or Torro Rosso?Then if they don't, they could just start from the pit lane after making adjustments to make it a better race car

### #1975 Kalmake

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 16:32

This has probably been asked many times before but is it against a rule for a driver to wear a HUD similar to Google Glass?
From what I've read, it's uninttusive and you just look top right to see the display.

real time tyre temps, lap count, position, strategy, split timings could all be on it. If anyone has ever played a racing game you see what I mean.
Forza Motorsport games has real time telementry data you can view from the car.

Thanks!

Lotus were developing visor HUD in early 90's.

### #1976 Andrew Hope

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 17:45

Another question from me- you wouldn't believe I've been following F1 since the eighties, would you?

Some top teams say that they set the car up for the race rather than qually and suffer a bad grid position as a result, others set their car up more for the one lap and get a good grid place for Sunday. What do the back of the grid teams do? Do they set up their cars for the race? If they do,wouldn't they be better just setting their car up for qualifying to try to get ahead of a Williams or Torro Rosso?Then if they don't, they could just start from the pit lane after making adjustments to make it a better race car

Some of the backmarker teams go for reliability in their set up, since their best chance of scoring points is other cars crashing out or DNFing. There's no point to Caterham setting up a car to go as fast as possible in qualifying to gain 1 or 2 extra spots, when they'd still be 10 spots from the points, and risking an engine failure on race day. Much smarter to have a car that gives up half a second a lap, but will almost certainly make it to the finish. The problem is reliability is so good for everyone in F1 these days that barring exceptional circumstances or a Spa 1998-type accident, it just keeps getting them 16ths and 17ths because not enough cars get knocked out of the race. DRS is another thing to consider, because compromising your Sunday reliability (by running settings that stress the engine and parts more to get a good qualifying spot) when everyone behind you will likely just DRS-past you anyway isn't smart.

There are times when it would be smarter for a backmarker to go hell-bent on a good qualifying spot, though. Monaco is one, other street circuits to a lesser extent. They might want to turn up the wick to get a halo lap in and steal a 12th or 13th grid spot at their home race. Wet sessions are a great opportunity for them (see Hulkenberg on pole, Brazil 2010, van der Garde qualified 12th or something close to it at Spa. He was into Q2 at any rate). If the team is dying for sponsors, they might just say **** it and try to go as fast as possible, and if the car burns down doing it then that's the price they pay.

### #1977 kevins

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 19:36

Has a driver ever announced their retirement and gone on to win their final race?

Alan Jones won the 1981 Caesars Palace Grand Prix, his last race. The of course he made not one but two comebacks to ruin that record.

Alain Prost retired as WDC in '93 as did Jackie Stewart in '73 at the very peak of his powers, so not winning a race but still stopping at the very top.

Edited by kevins, 25 September 2013 - 19:37.

### #1978 Bleu

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 13:24

In North America, Gil de Ferran fits "winning his last race". He won final IRL race in 2003 (the one overshadowed by Kenny Bräck's serious crash). He later returned, and retired again in 2009, winning final race again. In 2003, he also won Indianapolis 500.

### #1979 Andrew Hope

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 18:01

Do you need the FIA's permission to sell paintings of F1 drivers? Let's say you did a painting of Rosberg crossing the line at Shanghai for his first win. Do you need the FIA's permission for that? Do you have to give them money? I'm pretty sure you don't even need to ask them if you don't have any logos they own, but I don't really understand these kinds of laws.

### #1980 DampMongoose

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:06

If you qualify p11 and a top ten driver has a grid drop penalty, can you choose your tyres to start on?

### #1981 SpartanChas

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:11

All drivers who qualify in the top 10 will start on the tyres they set their fastest Q3 lap on. So yeah. If you didn't run in Q3 you can.

### #1982 ocp

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 11:10

http://www1.skysport.../f1/8960115/ted's-korean-notebook

At 7:58 what are the products used?

F1 marketing at its best

### #1983 V3TT3L

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 21:20

IN the case of Webber at the Korean GP, does the driver still needs to place the \$100K steering wheel bach in the car covered by flames ?

Of course the steering wheel might turn into ashes.

### #1984 DanardiF1

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 21:25

All drivers who qualify in the top 10 will start on the tyres they set their fastest Q3 lap on. So yeah. If you didn't run in Q3 you can.

Which also means the grid-penalty stricken driver has to do the same as he 'qualified' in the top 10.

### #1985 artista

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 21:39

IN the case of Webber at the Korean GP, does the driver still needs to place the \$100K steering wheel bach in the car covered by flames ?

Of course the steering wheel might turn into ashes.

Article 30.5 doesn't specify any exception to the rule

Anyway, common sense, even if uncommon, does exist and sometimes prevailes. The steering wheel rule is in the 'General Safety' chapter and a driver going back to a car covered by flames just to place the steering wheel back would pretty much go against general safety, therefore...

### #1986 Bloggsworth

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 21:39

Do you need the FIA's permission to sell paintings of F1 drivers? Let's say you did a painting of Rosberg crossing the line at Shanghai for his first win. Do you need the FIA's permission for that? Do you have to give them money? I'm pretty sure you don't even need to ask them if you don't have any logos they own, but I don't really understand these kinds of laws.

They know that and will tie you in legal knots - But as far as I am aware, an artist can paint a picture of anything he wants as long as it is not intended to defame, denigrate, disparage the subject. You cannot faithfully copy a copyright picture, but if you were doing that there would be no point, the photograph would be cheaper. A motor race is a public event and you have the right to artistically interpret what you see.

### #1987 eronrules

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:11

IN the case of Webber at the Korean GP, does the driver still needs to place the \$100K steering wheel bach in the car covered by flames ?

Of course the steering wheel might turn into ashes.

i think driver safety comes first in these cases ... nick heidfeld wasn't penalized for hungary bar-b-q

### #1988 juanma9

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 20:41

S.Q.: Given that there are testing restrictions for all teams, isn't it unfair that Red-Bull has an additional sister team to test with? How exactly are these teams related? Can RBR share parts with Toro Rosso for extra testing?

Edited by juanma9, 09 October 2013 - 20:43.

### #1989 F1ultimate

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 20:49

Can RBR share parts with Toro Rosso for extra testing?

Nope. That was disallowed after 2008.

### #1990 eronrules

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:48

Nope. That was disallowed after 2008.

i'm not sure about that ...

### #1991 eronrules

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:24

a Bit OT but ..

Why the HELL Chanoch Nissany was allowed to participate in a free practice session of a F1 race???

Edited by eronrules, 10 October 2013 - 02:25.

### #1992 scheivlak

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:59

a Bit OT but ..

Why the HELL Chanoch Nissany was allowed to participate in a free practice session of a F1 race???

Apparently by doing enough kms in testing http://www.forix.com...0&rst=1003&c=51 - though usually many seconds off the pace.

### #1993 Myrvold

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 17:17

What will happen when there is a gay driver (or a highly regarded person in a team) when it comes to races in the GCC (Gulf Co-operation Countries) which now co-operates to make it possible to refuse any LGBT-person to cross the borders into any of the GCC.

While I don't feel like it is the job of motorsport to be political, it can lead to quite big problems.

### #1994 Fastcake

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 17:29

What will happen when there is a gay driver (or a highly regarded person in a team) when it comes to races in the GCC (Gulf Co-operation Countries) which now co-operates to make it possible to refuse any LGBT-person to cross the borders into any of the GCC.

While I don't feel like it is the job of motorsport to be political, it can lead to quite big problems.

Given both races are run by members of the ruling families, I imagine any issues would quickly disappear.

### #1995 eronrules

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:54

What will happen when there is a gay driver (or a highly regarded person in a team) when it comes to races in the GCC (Gulf Co-operation Countries) which now co-operates to make it possible to refuse any LGBT-person to cross the borders into any of the GCC.

While I don't feel like it is the job of motorsport to be political, it can lead to quite big problems.

i don't think being a LGBT driver is an issue in racing in the GCC countries, chiefly because it's not a public/published matter. it's a prsonal preference and i'm sure the team PR/FOM will make sure it's not discussed so much.

however, a bigger issue would be if you are jewish or worse still, if you are a citizen of Israel. most GCC countries doesn't allow any citizen of Israel (bar egypt and JOrdan IIRC) to pass beyond customs. and drivers of  jewish origin would face both political and social prejudices against themselves. and i don't think FOM/bernie/Royal families would be able to diffuse the situation ... if it arises.

the closest we had to having a driver from israel was Chanoch Nissany . however ... the rest is history

### #1996 Brother Fox

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:25

i don't think being a LGBT driver is an issue in racing in the GCC countries, chiefly because it's not a public/published matter. it's a prsonal preference and i'm sure the team PR/FOM will make sure it's not discussed so much.

But being straight isnt published or a public matter, but we still see Jensons and Lewis' girlfriends all the time. Without trying to make a statement, their partner could still be very visible in the paddock and everyone would know.

I have no answers to the question but curious too. Actually, a sham marriage is the probably the easiest way around it so maybe Bernie would bring back the Las Vegas GP the week before the 'tricky' race

### #1997 Brother Fox

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:26

however, a bigger issue would be if you are jewish or worse still, if you are a citizen of Israel. most GCC countries doesn't allow any citizen of Israel (bar egypt and JOrdan IIRC) to pass beyond customs. and drivers of  jewish origin would face both political and social prejudices against themselves. and i don't think FOM/bernie/Royal families would be able to diffuse the situation ... if it arises.

the closest we had to having a driver from israel was Chanoch Nissany . however ... the rest is history

if memory serves me right, Malaysia has similar restrictions.

### #1998 RosannaG

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:30

I would like to know why a driver without super licence can become a F1 test driver.

Last saturday, some friends and I were talking about Maria de Villota and they asked me why she did not replace Timo Glock in Valencia last year when he got sick.

I told them she was not the reserve driver because she did not have the super licence and that's when the question came up... For them, it made more sense to hire a driver with super licence who can play both roles.

### #1999 eronrules

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:40

I would like to know why a driver without super licence can become a F1 test driver.

Last saturday, some friends and I were talking about Maria de Villota and they asked me why she did not replace Timo Glock in Valencia last year when he got sick.

I told them she was not the reserve driver because she did not have the super licence and that's when the question came up... For them, it made more sense to hire a driver with super licence who can play both roles.

yes they can. it's upto the team to put which monkey they want to put in the car in a private test. it's only when a driver wants to participate in a FIA sanctioned F1 event, i.e FPs/Qualy/Race, they require to have a superlicense.

that said, i don't know if a driver has to have a superlicense to participate in YDT though, can anyone clarify that???? IIRC, YDT's are FIA sanctioned events, so it should mandate a superlicense.

### #2000 eronrules

eronrules
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:41

if memory serves me right, Malaysia has similar restrictions.

and what's even funny is that a citizen of those said countries (+ bangladesh + pakistan ) can't even travel to Israel with their passports. (i know it cause first hand experience)