63 replies to this topic

[sonar]

Thomas you are indeed lucky to have that book.
I've been trying to find it for years.
Because it's out of print I've been searching on the web and in second hand bookstores.
No luck so far, I'm afraid.

[tom58long]

Can I beg to differ?

When they were together at Tyrrell, Bellof & Martin Brundle were very close in terms of performance. In 1984 Stefan outqualified Martin 5-3, but 4 of those 5 times were by 1 place and had it not been for his crash at Monaco it may have been level. Both had similar best performances that year, Bellof's 3rd-should-have-been-2nd at Monaco and Brundle's 2nd at Detroit.

In 1985, in the 6 races where they both had the same car, the score was 3-3 and again all of Bellof's "wins" were by one place (Brundle beat him by 4 at Monaco). And although Bellof scored Tyrrell's best result that year with a 4th at Detroit that was only because Alliot wanked into Brundle who was running ahead of Stefan.

Bellof's death was a tragedy for someone who had so much to prove. But there seems to be a lot of hyper-mythologizing about his talent because he died young and perhaps coloured by Ken Tyrrell's high opinion of him - especially as Ken had such a rep for talent spotting (although he also employed Slim Borgudd and Ricardo Zunino...).

I'd put Bellof on a similar ranking to Brundle. Very good, should have been a winner when the cards fell in his favour, but not a World Champ in F1...but then again you never know if his career would have Manselled rather than Warwicked...

martin is a very, very good guy. but - sorry - to put him on the same level to bellof.......

[tom58long]

Thomas you are indeed lucky to have that book.
I've been trying to find it for years.
Because it's out of print I've been searching on the web and in second hand bookstores.
No luck so far, I'm afraid.

yeah - i am very lucky! unfortunately nowadays everybody is looking for schuey-books. this is strange. to me schuey is a second mass - with much more wins.

i guess you won´t find that book in second hand book stores as i guess the number of prints were small and only bought by just "fans". if they would have sold it - i guess to other "fans".

Edited by tom58long, 01 September 2009 - 22:18.

[wolf sun]

Echoing your sentiments, tom58, national pride never entered into my enthusiasm for motor racing (as to the footie, clubs are where it's at, couldn't care less about FCB Löw's chosen ones ;) ). Blessed are the days before M Schumacher, his brother's wife, RTL, etc. took command, and every bloke and his mother became 'motor racing fans' overnight. (Not that Helmut G. Müller had been that much more preferrable, but at least we'd been spared the hyperbole).

The thing about Bellof, and Depailler, and Regga, and Peterson, and...and... ...is that they were true racers, they had charisma and cojones, and raced proper cars on proper circuits - nationality never played a part in that. Passion did, though.

Reassuring to hear, therefore, that I'm not the only one thinking that Schu, with all his wins and championships still somehow pales in comparison...

[wolf sun]

End of rant.

[ensign14]

martin is a very, very good guy. but - sorry - to put him on the same level to bellof.......

Well, there's a stunning counter-argument.

[2F-001]

Bellof's 6:11 practice lap in the Group C Porsche on the Nordschleife is, undoubtedly, one of his most famous moments - but I think his opening lap of the '83 F2 race there was, perhaps, a greater achievement.

[sonar]

I agree Bellof's accident was driver error, but I wouldn't have described the location as the outside of Eau Rouge - Bellof tried to get up the inside of Ickx (on the left) into the first part of Eau Rouge (the left hander) and Ickx stuck to his normal racing line (as he was perfectly in his right to do), probably unaware of Bellof's attempt to pass. Bellof did not manage to get fully alongside Ickx into the corner and the back half of Ickx's car hit the front half of Bellof's - poor Stefan was then sent headlong into the barriers at the outside of the uphill right hander.

That's how I remember it anyway.

This is how I remember it too.
Did anybody ever blame Ickx for the accident?
I've never heard anybody actually say it.
But Stefan had been trying to overtake Ickx for some time before the crash and there was a blue flag out for Ickx. He should have known that Stefan was there trying to overtaken him.
He just never thought he would try to overtake him at Eau Rouge.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[scheivlak]

This is how I remember it too.
Did anybody ever blame Ickx for the accident?
I've never heard anybody actually say it.
But Stefan had been trying to overtake Ickx for some time before the crash and there was a blue flag out for Ickx. He should have known that Stefan was there trying to overtaken him.
He just never thought he would try to overtake him at Eau Rouge.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Earlier threads about that: http://forums.autosp...showtopic=48075 and http://forums.autosp...w...ellof&st=40

[scheivlak]

But Stefan had been trying to overtake Ickx for some time before the crash and there was a blue flag out for Ickx. He should have known that Stefan was there trying to overtaken him.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

As mentioned elsewhere, Ickx was leading the race. Blue flags were waved, but not because of Ickx!
They were waved for another competitor who was about to be lapped by both Ickx and Bellof, fighting for the lead.

[Victor_RO]

As mentioned elsewhere, Ickx was leading the race. Blue flags were waved, but not because of Ickx!
They were waved for another competitor who was about to be lapped by both Ickx and Bellof, fighting for the lead.

Blue flags weren't meant specifically for lapped cars at the time. As far as I could see recently on the onboard video, the blue flag was for Ickx warning him that Bellof was intending to pass. And the result sheet show both car #1 and car #19 as DNF on the same lap, therefore they were fighting for position.

[rwills]

I agree Bellof's accident was driver error, but I wouldn't have described the location as the outside of Eau Rouge - Bellof tried to get up the inside of Ickx (on the left) into the first part of Eau Rouge (the left hander) and Ickx stuck to his normal racing line (as he was perfectly in his right to do), probably unaware of Bellof's attempt to pass. Bellof did not manage to get fully alongside Ickx into the corner and the back half of Ickx's car hit the front half of Bellof's - poor Stefan was then sent headlong into the barriers at the outside of the uphill right hander.

Given that the front of Bellof's car never seems to have passed the front of Ickx's car at any point in the run down into Eau Rouge, it seems strange to explain the cause of the accident as being the back of Ickx's car colliding with the front of Bellof's. I'd say it was vice versa. At any point Bellof could have lifted, braked or steered the car to the left (assuming there was room) to avoid contact. But if Ickx had the "lead", it was Bellof who needed to take avoiding action.

[ReWind]

Thirty years ago.

 

[retriever]

There is a short article on Stefan Bellof mainly made up of recollections in the current issue of Motor Sport. Opposite the last page there is a full page advert for a track day school featuring cars positioned at Eau Rouge. Maybe I am old fashioned but I thought it a somewhat insensitive placing considering it was the actual location where he died.

 

I wonder if any other TNFers had thoughts similar to mine.

Edited by retriever, 01 September 2015 - 16:20.