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#1 baggybird

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 21:07

I was watching the racing at Goodwood a couple of weeks ago in particular the late 50's early 60's F1 type cars and got thinking, are there any race cars out there that have never raced. There seems to have been a quantum leap in car design around this time ie front engine to rear engine etc.... A manufacturer may have built a incarnation of their last model only to find the game had moved foreward in such a way that the new model was obsolete even before it had turned a wheel in anger.
Are there any such vehicles about .
If so would they still be called a "racing car/vintage racer"?

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#2 Twin Window

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 21:10

Originally posted by baggybird

A manufacturer may have built a incarnation of their last model only to find the game had moved foreward in such a way that the new model was obsolete even before it had turned a wheel in anger.

Ah, the Scarab F1 car...

You really must read-up about Lance Reventlow and his pals! Here's a start.

(EDIT: blimey; it's appeared of its own accord!)

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 23:08

Take your pick :)

#4 f1steveuk

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 11:53

I know some cars got as far as a test, or a shakedown, but it got me thinking, how many got as far as most of the major components and never turned a wheel? I can see a whole new Historic series for cars that have never previously seen the light of day!! So how big could the grid be? Brabham BT51, I don't think it got as far as running, was a complete car (from the picture) but how many were just tubs with some suspension, and where are those tubs now!!?

#5 2F-001

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:02

Did the Lotus 96 ever turn a wheel in a race-ready form?

#6 ensign14

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:13

Originally posted by Twin Window
Ah, the Scarab F1 car...

That did race, though...

There have been a few abortive formulae - Procar, PremierF1, that NASCAR-in-XJS-shape touring car thing that's floating around somewhere - that never had races and had cars produced for them.

#7 GreenMachine

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:14

Cosworth F1 FWD ?

Ugliest F1 car ever btw :rolleyes:

#8 2F-001

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:17

Originally posted by 2F-001
Did the Lotus 96 ever turn a wheel in a race-ready form?

No, of course it didn't - what I meant was, was it tested as a completed car?

#9 Twin Window

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:28

Originally posted by ensign14

That did race, though...

Yeah, I realise that - but if you look at the quote I used, it summerises the Scarab project to a 't'.

#10 f1steveuk

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:32

Originally posted by ensign14
That did race, though...

There have been a few abortive formulae PremierF1........


Funny that, I went to see the guy who was trying to set that up, in Berkley Square I think, Colin someone.

He said he was friendly with one B.C Ecclestone, then told me that a well known Special Saloon car racer once worked for him, until he was caught photocopying all the Premier F1 files, and taken them around to Princess Gate, BCE's office, off thread I know, but anyone else know anything about it??

#11 RTH

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:57

I remember a story in Autosport decades ago a new team I think from Italy entered and turned up for a GP , went to scrutineering and got rejected because their car was too big in all its dimensions.

The story went the cars builder had mis-converted regulation dimensions in imperial measure in to metric and ended up with something too big everywhere.

Anyone else remember it what the car was etc. Needless to say it wasn't seen again.

#12 2F-001

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 13:02

Bigger projects than this have failed, supposedly due to metric-Imperial misunderstandings...

#13 MCS

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 13:36

Originally posted by RTH
I remember a story in Autosport decades ago a new team I think from Italy entered and turned up for a GP , went to scrutineering and got rejected because their car was too big in all its dimensions.

The story went the cars builder had mis-converted regulation dimensions in imperial measure in to metric and ended up with something too big everywhere.

Anyone else remember it what the car was etc. Needless to say it wasn't seen again.


Was it the Dywa (spelling?), or something else with four letters and, yes, Italian.

I seem to recall some grainy pictures in Pit & Paddock in Autosport long ago...

#14 Mallory Dan

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 14:54

Arno ???

#15 ensign14

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 15:10

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Arno ???

No, that was their reaction when they realized what they had done.

#16 RTH

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 17:19

Originally posted by ensign14
No, that was their reaction when they realized what they had done.




:rotfl:

#17 f1steveuk

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 10:14

Originally posted by 2F-001
Bigger projects than this have failed, supposedly due to metric-Imperial misunderstandings...


Didn't fail, but the "copying" of a B29 by the Russians had a few problems going from imperial to metric

#18 T54

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 01:25

I have two 1972 Indy cars that were never finished by the manufacturer and are still brand new... and soon will turn their wheels for the first time, a mere 35 years later... :)

#19 RTH

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 06:35

Originally posted by T54
I have two 1972 Indy cars that were never finished by the manufacturer and are still brand new... and soon will turn their wheels for the first time, a mere 35 years later... :)


Details & photos ?

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#20 f1steveuk

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 09:30

Originally posted by T54
I have two 1972 Indy cars that were never finished by the manufacturer and are still brand new... and soon will turn their wheels for the first time, a mere 35 years later... :)


That's the sort of thing!!! Trouble is, how do you decide on a colour scheme??, and have you got the drawings to complete them? But there must be quite a few unused, never built up "tubs" around, there's even an unused, nearly complete land speed car!!

#21 RTH

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 10:13

Originally posted by f1steveuk


............................ land speed car!!


Talking of which did you see at the Bonneville speed week recently Californian Jack Costella drove a streamliner on his stomach face down with just a 125cc honda petrol engine setting the mark at 167 mph just 50 cm high (20")

#22 f1steveuk

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 10:47

Originally posted by RTH


Talking of which did you see at the Bonneville speed week recently Californian Jack Costella drove a streamliner on his stomach face down with just a 125cc honda petrol engine setting the mark at 167 mph just 50 cm high (20")


My hat, (or helmet!) goes off to him, I wonder what revs that little Honda was hitting??

The LSR car was City of Sterling, I saw pictures which showed a near complete car (just final bodywork), wonder what happened to it?

#23 Macca

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 19:34

In 2002 the so-called 'Phoenix-Harts' were said to have turned up at a GP but were very properly refused entry............but did anyone ever see them in the flesh, so-to-speak?


Paul M

#24 T54

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 02:24

Details & photos ?


Soon, Richard, soon!
They are both '72 Eagle-Offies. Both are NOS AAR production cars with zero miles, one will be painted as the Mystery Eagle in purple with white trim, the other as an Olsonite Eagle in white with the multi-color Eagles. We hope to have them done and running in mid 2007.
Interestingly, one of the engines used won the 1974 Ontario 500 in the hands of Bobby Unser according to the works records in my possession.
Both use 4-speed Weismann trannies.
Regards,

T54

#25 Mallory Dan

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 16:27

Originally posted by f1steveuk


Didn't fail, but the "copying" of a B29 by the Russians had a few problems going from imperial to metric


Did the Soviets have an F2 series in 1975, or was it F Atlantic... ???

#26 Stephen W

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 17:12

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Did the Soviets have an F2 series in 1975, or was it F Atlantic... ???


No it was F Baltic :rotfl:

#27 f1steveuk

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 07:51

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Did the Soviets have an F2 series in 1975, or was it F Atlantic... ???


Sorry, I meant a Boeing B29, forgot about the Chevron, I am off to stand in the corner!

#28 Vicuna

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 07:08

Originally posted by Stephen W


No it was F Baltic :rotfl:


:)

#29 uechtel

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 07:20

http://8w.forix.com/...neverraced.html

http://8w.forix.com/...ced-prewar.html

;)

#30 dylan_brabham

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 15:00

Originally posted by 2F-001
Did the Lotus 96 ever turn a wheel in a race-ready form?


There were 3 Brabham BT51's up until a few years ago I think one was owned by the company that inhabited the old Motor Racing Developments factory in Chessington (They had a few others too). Once the factory closed down (due to the company relocating) I am not sure what happened to the car

#31 f1steveuk

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 15:12

That would be Activa?? which at one time was run by Herbie Blash. but THREE BT51s????!!!!! What complete? I know there are none in Biggin where every thing else went and have only seen a picture of one complete one, which may have been engineless.

#32 dylan_brabham

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 15:38

There were 3 built, not sure if they all had engines. Certainly one was tested IIRC at Paul Ricard (at one time on Avon tyres funnily enough!) I can't be sure but I think Activa had this car, I am sure I remember seeing the car on their old website from years back, I will see if I can find the pics as I remember they were high res and at the time I saved them...

There used to be like a mini musem at the factory (back in Brabham days) and there were alll sorts of Brabhams "stored" as parts

#33 Paolo

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 17:09

Originally posted by RTH
I remember a story in Autosport decades ago a new team I think from Italy entered and turned up for a GP , went to scrutineering and got rejected because their car was too big in all its dimensions.

The story went the cars builder had mis-converted regulation dimensions in imperial measure in to metric and ended up with something too big everywhere.

Anyone else remember it what the car was etc. Needless to say it wasn't seen again.


You may refer to the first ever Tecno F1.
But it was seen again, in many occasions, albeit in slimmer version.

#34 RTH

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 17:21

Could be, do you have a picture ?

#35 FerrariV12

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 17:28

A few years earlier maybe, but what about the Kieft GP car? Apparently the reason behind its non-appearance was that Climax canned their 2.5 litre V8 after being scared off by power output claims by the likes of Maserati and Ferrari in 1954, when actually their engine had MORE power in reality? I don't have a link or source handy, I'm pretty sure someone here does though? I remember a piece being done on it in Motor Sport a while back...

#36 ensign14

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 18:08

My favourite book - "Cooper Cars" by DCN, p. 118, says Leonard Lee was too wary of risking Climax' reputation and given the Press power figures for Mercedes, Maserati and Ferrari decided not to go ahead with Kieft's request.

It delivered 246hp on SU fuel injection on the first bench tests, so make of that what you will - but as Mr Nye says "had the V8 been raced it might have proved more than adequate".

Then again, would the Kieft chassis been OK? Mike Lawrence in "Grand Prix Cars 1945-65" thinks it too crude.

#37 David Beard

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 09:54

Originally posted by FerrariV12
A few years earlier maybe, but what about the Kieft GP car? Apparently the reason behind its non-appearance was that Climax canned their 2.5 litre V8 after being scared off by power output claims by the likes of Maserati and Ferrari in 1954, when actually their engine had MORE power in reality? I don't have a link or source handy, I'm pretty sure someone here does though? I remember a piece being done on it in Motor Sport a while back...


As discussed on a thread about the Kieft here, FerrariV12

http://forums.autosp...highlight=kieft

#38 rl1856

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 02:12

Originally posted by Twin Window
Ah, the Scarab F1 car...


And the Aston Martin F-1 car....


Best,

Ross

#39 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 18:35

Originally posted by f1steveuk


My hat, (or helmet!) goes off to him, I wonder what revs that little Honda was hitting??

The LSR car was City of Sterling, I saw pictures which showed a near complete car (just final bodywork), wonder what happened to it?


There one or two other nearly-complete LSR cars back in the 80s/early 90s. Some of them featured in the back pages of the David Tremayne/Cyril Posthumous published mid 80s (the update of the 1971 original) . More recently there was the Lyn St James streamliner. That appeared to be all ready to run a couple of years back and suddenly everything went very quiet on the subject. Wonder what happened to it?

Most famous of course is the Mercedes T80 which was almost ready to run in 1939. It was 'discovered' at the end of the war by the allied forces who occupied the Daimler Benz factory. Surely the most spectacular 'barn find' of all time?

Simon Lewis
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www.simonlewis.com