44 replies to this topic

[Philsy]

Hi

Some of you will have spotted that I've posted a few requests for information on very obscure (such as Eitel Cantoni) Formula One drivers from the 1950s. I've done this after exhausting all other avenues of research.

The reason? Because I'm trying to catalogue every driver who has appeared in a Formula One race - some 790 or so - with a brief spec panel and a few words of biography. I'm hoping to get this published in book form, once it's complete. I'm also happy to share the information online, and have already expanded on some Wikipedia entries.

Sadly, though, I've been accused by a moderator of 'abusing' the forum by asking these occasional questions without offering explanation. The implication being that I've been lazy by posting here and not going elsewhere for the information.

I have now given that explanation and I apologise for any offence I may have caused. Again, I'd like to stress that I come here as a last resort.

I'd also like to thank those who have, up to now, taken the trouble to respond to my posts.

Best regards

Phil

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Philsy
Hi

The reason? Because I'm trying to catalogue every driver who has appeared in a Formula One race - some 790 or so - with a brief spec panel and a few words of biography. I'm hoping to get this published in book form, once it's complete. I'm also happy to share the information online, and have already expanded on some Wikipedia entries.

Phil

Errrrr.... what would this book have that Steve Small's "Grand Prix Who's Who" doesn't? (Or in fact the Autocourse database it's drawn from that's already online)?

[Philsy]

Originally posted by petefenelon



Errrrr.... what would this book have that Steve Small's "Grand Prix Who's Who" doesn't? (Or in fact the Autocourse database it's drawn from that's already online)?

I'm just looking at F1 drivers, so any book will be smaller and less expensive. Also, I'm not sure Steve's book is still available.

Phil

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Philsy
I'm just looking at F1 drivers....

You don't need to bother with Cantoni then. He never competed in a Formula 1 race

[David Beard]

Originally posted by David McKinney

You don't need to bother with Cantoni then. He never competed in a Formula 1 race

You're wicked, Mr McKinney ;)

[2F-001]

Philsy -
I believe Steve Small's book confines itself to drivers in WDC Grands Prix (1950 and on) which is in some ways a more restricted brief, both in terms of chronology and the number and breadth of events considered, than the project you are engaged in (admittedly different in that you would not appear to covering all of the WDC events - or perhaps you are - as David has alluded). But it's not clear how you would make this shorter without leaving more out.
We're not trying to be killjoys - just suggesting that you might be reploughing old furrows - or leaving yourself open to debate as to your terms of reference, eg F1, GP, WDC etc.

(I don't know if Steve Small's book is still in print, but it seems to be available quite cheaply secondhand.)

[Darren Galpin]

Or you could look here - http://www.silhouet....rs/drivers.html - it's been there for a few years now....

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Philsy


Also, I'm not sure Steve's book is still available.

Phil

Steve Small's book is the ultimate reference source so far on GP drivers. Like any book, though, it has got its errors. At www.usedbooksearch.co.uk there are always some availible.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Philsy


I'm just looking at F1 drivers, so any book will be smaller and less expensive.

Phil

This statement seems to be incompatable with your first post? Just looked at my copy of Steve Small book published in 1994. Only non F1 drivers are F2 drivers taking part in WC races ,including Cantoni.
A more detailed book with every non-championship F1 race driver included and up to date would be at least twice the size. Would be very costly and most of the info is already on line anyway.

[Philsy]

Originally posted by Rob29
This statement seems to be incompatable with your first post? Just looked at my copy of Steve Small book published in 1994. Only non F1 drivers are F2 drivers taking part in WC races ,including Cantoni.
A more detailed book with every non-championship F1 race driver included and up to date would be at least twice the size. Would be very costly and most of the info is already on line anyway.

Sorry, I thought Steve's book covered ALL GP drivers. I'm looking at WDC from 1950. I've ordered a used copy - doesn't seem to be offered new.

All the online listings I've found are not complete, in that some of the entries have only a line or two of biography, and some miss drivers out completely. - I'd like to get something on every driver.

Phil

[Doug Nye]

Friendly question: have you been interested in this subject for long?

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Philsy


Sorry, I thought Steve's book covered ALL GP drivers. I'm looking at WDC from 1950. I've ordered a used copy - doesn't seem to be offered new.

All the online listings I've found are not complete, in that some of the entries have only a line or two of biography, and some miss drivers out completely. - I'd like to get something on every driver.

Phil

You have set youself something of a task. Steves book lists every driver who even practiced for a WDC race bar those in the Indy 500 1950-60.I may be wrong but I would think that anything that is available has already been discussed here on TNF.

[Philsy]

Originally posted by Rob29
You have set youself something of a task. Steves book lists every driver who even practiced for a WDC race bar those in the Indy 500 1950-60.I may be wrong but I would think that anything that is available has already been discussed here on TNF.

I'm including the Indy 500 entrants, too :

[2F-001]

Philsy, in order to stop this thread sending us all into ever-decreasing circles...

what's kept this discussion going is, principally, that you started by saying that your remit was "all Formula One races" as distinct from Mr Small's ambit of most WDC races; however, Formula One is/was
a) considered to predate the WDC a little
b) not confined to WDC races
c) not the formula for which all WDC races were run
and that's without considering how you handle the anomalies such as those valid, but -- in WDC outcome terms -- fairly inconsequential Indy 500 races (Do you leave them out? Do you then leave them out of cumulative data and stats? If not how do you reconcile the further anomaly that you thus create? And can you be sure that anyone referring to your work understands your terms of reference when trying to reconcile them with other sources). Or instances such as F2 cars in F1 races (German GPs) - a part of the race but not the championship; or however one wishes to interpret it!

This may seem like pedantry - but that's the market you're heading for!

As you now say you are interested in the WDC, it sounds like you want to do an update of Small's tome. If you are aiming at a fully detailed, but smaller book, have you considered just doing an addenda of items you believe to be incorrect or incomplete and then just take up where the existing book leaves off? Otherwise your previously-stated aims and terms of reference seem a little unclear.

Apologies if I've misunderstood though - it wouldn't be the first time.
Whatever, I wish you well with your project - it'll be arduous and frustrating but potentially satisfying!

[JB Miltonian]

Phil, do you have a copy of Alan Henry's "Formula One, Driver by Driver" (1992)? It's a book I refer to fairly often. Some of the entries are only one sentence long, but often I am able to find the answer I'm looking for in there.

[Philsy]

Sorry, I've not been able to give this thread the attention it deserves, in between working, and may have confused you.

I'm using this as my definitive list http://en.wikipedia....a_One_drivers#C

One can argue whether this is the best definition to go by, by I figure it's as good as any. What do others think?

Phil

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Philsy

The reason? Because I'm trying to catalogue every driver who has appeared in a Formula One race - some 790 or so - with a brief spec panel and a few words of biography. I'm hoping to get this published in book form, once it's complete. I'm also happy to share the information online, and have already expanded on some Wikipedia entries.

Steve Small is hopefully bringing out a fourth book in the future and there are numerous sites that already cover these fellows - and in very good detail too.
I can't see the value in doing a project that is covered in depth already. You'd be better breaking into a niche spot, which is what I did, I suppose - a gap in the market.
The best way is to concentrate on other areas of the sport, say rallying, Le Mans, F2 or F3, which aren't covered well, but if you're really keen to work on this, then should be a guide.

Otherwise I can't see the book getting published. I've had no luck when I've floated a WATN book idea to the motor racing publishers, and there IS a gap in the market.

As a result, I'm not going to give out information on post-racing activities too much, otherwise it makes my site
http://www.oldracing...tegory=WCstarts obsolete.

Do you have pictures of these drivers? That's why Who's Who is so popular, and it was notable how many copies were used at the GPM for signatures. You'll need photos of these guys to make it appeal, I think, and that could well mean paying for images/copyright.

Sorry to sound negative & harsh, but it might save you a lot of work, sweat & tears in the long run.
If you're still prepared to do that, good luck to you.

In terms of last resorts, have you tried Yahoo Racing History, Trackforum, Tentenths etc. for all the other queries (especially US based). The information IS out there if you look hard enough.


Oh, and another word of advice. Wiki is notoriously unreliable. If you want a proper list, use FORIX, which already does a sterling job, and is better than FORIX.

[Philsy]

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
Phil, do you have a copy of Alan Henry's "Formula One, Driver by Driver" (1992)? It's a book I refer to fairly often. Some of the entries are only one sentence long, but often I am able to find the answer I'm looking for in there.

No, but I'll try to get a copy - thanks

[Philsy]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


Steve Small is hopefully bringing out a fourth book in the future and there are numerous sites that already cover these fellows - and in very good detail too.
I can't see the value in doing a project that is covered in depth already. You'd be better breaking into a niche spot, which is what I did, I suppose - a gap in the market.
The best way is to concentrate on other areas of the sport, say rallying, Le Mans, F2 or F3, which aren't covered well, but if you're really keen to work on this, then should be a guide.

Otherwise I can't see the book getting published. I've had no luck when I've floated a WATN book idea to the motor racing publishers, and there IS a gap in the market.

Do you have pictures of these drivers? That's why Who's Who is so popular, and it was notable how many copies were used at the GPM for signatures. You'll need photos of these guys to make it appeal, I think, and that could well mean paying for images/copyright.

Sorry to sound negative & harsh, but it might save you a lot of work, sweat & tears in the long run.
If you're still prepared to do that, good luck to you.

In terms of last resorts, have you tried Yahoo Racing History, Trackforum, Tentenths etc. for all the other queries (especially US based). The information IS out there if you look hard enough.

Thanks, I see your point and will mull it over.

Phil

[JB Miltonian]

I don't have Steve Small's book. Just as an example, here is the entry on Cantoni in Henry's book:

Cantoni, Heitel (BR)
3 Grands Prix
Patron of the Brazilian Escuderia Bandeirantes outfit, Cantoni took part in the 1952 British, German, and Italian Grands Prix in a Maserati A6GCM.

They don't list his birth/death dates and locations, although they do so for the majority of the listed drivers.

[Richard Jenkins]

Phil. Don't get me wrong - I don't want to sound too negative & discouraging and if I come across a bit like that, sorry.

It's just the market has been and probably will be again flooded with the "GP centric books". If you can produce something slightly alternative or slightly different to what is out there already, it WILL give it that edge. You'd have to do a lot more groundwork, but it'll be extremely more satisfying as a result, trust me - I've found that for meself.

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
I don't have Steve Small's book. Just as an example, here is the entry on Cantoni in Henry's book:

Cantoni, Heitel (BR)
3 Grands Prix
Patron of the Brazilian Escuderia Bandeirantes outfit, Cantoni took part in the 1952 British, German, and Italian Grands Prix in a Maserati A6GCM.

They don't list his birth/death dates and locations, although they do so for the majority of the listed drivers.

Yes, but since then, countless sites, and the GPDB 4 does (published 2005).
What gaps there were in Small's book, published c. 2000, have been filled well. It needs a book, yep, but I think that's on the way - eventually.

If it's just dates, then GPDB 4 is perfect. If it's more info, some sites cover it well. I think Philsy might need another slightly different avenue to crack it & make it all really worthwhile.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


The best way is to concentrate on other areas of the sport, say rallying, Le Mans, F2 or F3, which aren't covered well, but if you're really keen to work on this, then should be a guide.

Yes, we need something like a Who's Who on F2!! One of you talented chaps up in Europe must try your hand at it. I am sure it fill a gap on the shelves of all true racing enthusiasts...

PS. Forget Henry's book...unless someone gives it to you for free.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


Yes, we need something like a Who's Who on F2!!

I'll second that.

[ensign14]

I second what Hieronymous says about the Henry book, it's utter rubbish. Basically making a sentence out of raw data with no understanding, empathy or sense of who the driver actually was.

It's like seeing an FA Cup Final report from last season that states "Liverpool won the cup on penalties after a draw against West Ham". Something anyone could do on seeing the result. That's not an historian at work but, at best, an archivist automaton.

Maybe Henry had a contractual obligation and knocked it off in a few spare minutes.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ian senior


I'll second that.

The Big Book Of F2 is something that definitely needs doing. Who's Who, car-by-car guide and Mike Lang-style race-by-race history!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ensign14
I second what Hieronymous says about the Henry book, it's utter rubbish.

It's not even that good. But it does have a nice picture of Peter Gethin and his dog. When that's the best thing you can say about a racing book, you know something's very, very wrong. (Great driver, lovely dog, but really, one would've hoped for more!)

[KJJ]

Steve Small's book is great, doesn't seem much point in duplicating it.

I'd like to have a book that recorded the complete records, all forms of racing of course, for the top 1000 drivers whose careers started between, say, 1894 and 1960. 700 or 800 pages, very small type, blurred thumbnail photos, hopefully designed like Motor Sport used to be, so that Nuvolari's record started on page 243 and then got continued on pages 509, 617 and 23.

[D-Type]

How about a 'Steve Small' on sports car racing?

Or, if you really want to do some serious research, on prewar Grand Prix racing? (A convenient filter would be to limit it to Grande Epreuves). In an age where half the motor sport fanbase think that history means "World drivers' championship since 1950, excluding Indianapolis" such a book is needed. .... but would they buy a copy?

[Twin Window]

I registered Steve on here last year I think, so perhaps all this talk about his book will prompt him into posting!

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by KJJ
Steve Small's book is great, doesn't seem much point in duplicating it.

I'd like to have a book that recorded the complete records, all forms of racing of course, for the top 1000 drivers whose careers started between, say, 1894 and 1960. 700 or 800 pages, very small type, blurred thumbnail photos, hopefully designed like Motor Sport used to be, so that Nuvolari's record started on page 243 and then got continued on pages 509, 617 and 23.

How about a record of all drivers, not just the top 1000 and not just those who started before 1960, in all categories of motor racing? But not on paper of course...

[KJJ]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
How about a record of all drivers, not just the top 1000 and not just those who started before 1960, in all categories of motor racing? But not on paper of course...

Great idea, it could be published in two volumes, then I wouldn't have to buy the post 1960 volume.

OK my original post was tounge in cheek but as a very ex-boxing fan I can remember Nat Fleischer's Ring Record books which did publish full career records for hundreds of old champions. So not an impossible task, though no doubt more practically accomplished on the web.

I've seen Nuvolari's full record, Ascari jnrs, Moss pre-Goodwood, Clark. Are there many others available? I remember DCN suggesting that Stewart's record might make a good project for a TNFer as JYS himself did not have one. Crazy really, a great champion like Stewart and no record of all his races.

[Paul Rochdale]

Steve Small's book seems to be highly regarded here however when I went to a well known motoring bookseller in London's West End a few months ago to see if they had a copy, a member of staff sneered at it's mention saying that as they only sold one copy in 2005, they would be getting any more in.

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


Yes, we need something like a Who's Who on F2!! One of you talented chaps up in Europe must try your hand at it. I am sure it fill a gap on the shelves of all true racing enthusiasts...

I can probably muster up a WATN for F2, but that's only one side of it of the Who's Who. If someone can do the stats, someone else the cars and it's a joint project:- it might- just might- be feasible.
But then there's the photos. They might be a problem.

[Twin Window]

I got a reply from Steve after I emailed him to give him a rev;

Anyway thanks for the links and the mentions of Who's Who. It was very interesting. Just to clear a few points. I restricted it to World Championship races because to have included non-championship races would have doubled the size given he number of drivers who competed.

I will definitely be up for a fourth edition in the near future, as I have more info and photos of the obscure drivers not included previously. I want to do the book justice and not just rehash it quickly, so hang on a little longer!

Meanwhile back to Indy 1952....


Cheers Steve

PS I will get involved on the site when I have time to devote to it.

It'll be good to have Steve's input here, as-and-when he gets the chance.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Twin Window
I got a reply from Steve after I emailed him to give him a rev;



Meanwhile back to Indy 1952....

Twinny,

Now, what does that cryptic reference mean?

Nice to know about a revised edition, and I look forward to Steve's input on TNF as well. Thanks for checking

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


I can probably muster up a WATN for F2, but that's only one side of it of the Who's Who. If someone can do the stats, someone else the cars and it's a joint project:- it might- just might- be feasible.
But then there's the photos. They might be a problem.

I think this is a great idea and I would very much like to assist in such a project. Perhaps there are far more capable people than myself. I’ll have to rely heavily on Sheldon’s books and the results of fellow TNF’er, Stefan Ornerdal. Other great sources of information like AUTOSPORT, etc I unfortunately do not have for the period prior to 1978.

Perhaps we must start a separate thread here F2 WHO’S WHO. Will one only concentrate on the European F2 championship from 1967-1984? Personally I think one must stick to this period otherwise we will sit with hundreds of other F2 races over the years, which can become a very complex matter.

I am not sure if Stefan or someone else has got an alphabetical list of all drivers that competed in F2. If not, I think this is a starting point. List all the drivers from ‘67 to ’84 (if one should decide on this period) and gather all further info on these drivers. I am willing to do this, but then have to share it will others than can check, correct, add.

What do you think? Perhaps “The Warder” aka Twin Windows can put this in a separate F2 WHO’S WHO thread…??

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

Now, what does that cryptic reference mean?

Not intentionally cryptic; he's putting together an Indy 500 book at the moment and the latest copy to arrive from the author covers 1952.

[Darren Galpin]

I had a similar idea to a Who's Who of everyone when I started http://www.teamdan.c...ople/index.html, the Motorsport Career Histories section of my website. It's a big job, and beyond just myself to give it justice given everything else I do as well. I believe that all of the F2 winners should be there, and probably most of those who scored top 6's (if they aren't in the WDC F1 drivers section). If people want to supply additional info, I'm more than happy to include it......

[Allen Brown]

I wasn't going to mention this until we were ready but Chris and I are just about to start a F2 section on OldRacingCars.com. It will be some time before we have the whole period covered from 1967 to 1984 but nobody was expecting this to be a quick project were they?

I like the idea of using Darren's Who's Who as a start point and developing that.

Allen

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Not intentionally cryptic; he's putting together an Indy 500 book at the moment and the latest copy to arrive from the author covers 1952.

Excellent I look forward to it.

Thank you for the clarification TW.

[Rob29]

Are there not already enough books on the Indy 500? I thought the 'cryptic comment 're.1952 might have referred to the fact that was the only year 50-60 that any non USA driver ran at Indy?

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Hieronymus



I am not sure if Stefan or someone else has got an alphabetical list of all drivers that competed in F2.

Yeah, I have. European F2, that is.

[Stefan Ornerdal]

I am not sure if Stefan or someone else has got an alphabetical list of all drivers that competed in F2.

No, I have not, but I think I can do such list in a week or so.

I would love to see a F2 Who's Who, and I would love to be of help and take part in such a project.

TNF'r Franck Verplancken ("FEV") started to edit something, with my site as a source. F2 drivers under "A" is completed.
An example of his work can be seen here:
http://www.formula2....er Arundell.htm

Can we co-operate on this issue? I know Hieronymus is prepared to take part in a working group, as I am, of course.

Where do we go from here?


Kind regards
Stefan
stefan.ornerdal@minmail.net
www.formula2.net

[HDonaldCapps]

Are there not already enough books on the Indy 500? I thought the 'cryptic comment 're.1952 might have referred to the fact that was the only year 50-60 that any non USA driver ran at Indy?

There don't seem to be very many good ones, however....