Jump to content


Photo

Kubica: podium after third Grand Prix


  • Please log in to reply
38 replies to this topic

#1 Nanni Dietrich

Nanni Dietrich
  • Member

  • 1,237 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:15

There was an Italian movie in the 70s winner of Cannes Festival, perhaps you know: "La classe operaia va in Paradiso" (The working class goes to Heaven) directed by Elio Petri.

:)

Who other before Robert Kubica, has obtained a podium after his third Grand Prix? (excluded Giancarlo Baghetti who won his first).
Who other before Robert Kubica led the race during his third Grand Prix?
Please, help me, i do not remember.

Probably we have found an ace.

Advertisement

#2 green-blood

green-blood
  • Member

  • 706 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:21

as useless as I always thought he was Jacques V took pole and led most of his first GP back in 96

#3 philippe7

philippe7
  • Member

  • 2,777 posts
  • Joined: August 03

Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:21

Hmmm....Emerson Fittipaldi came pretty close ( came fourth in his second Grand Prix , and won his fourth....)

More recently, Jean Alesi did quite well too ( fourth on his first race )

#4 2F-001

2F-001
  • Member

  • 2,271 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:23

Stewart?

Surtees? (Or did you specifically mean 'third' - rather than 'third or better'?)

(All assuming we are talking WDC events)

#5 green-blood

green-blood
  • Member

  • 706 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:25

actually its interesting how well Kubica has done, in JVs car :p

#6 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 23,836 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:30

Ignoring shared drives, Baghetti and the 1950 season (which had all sorts of strange "firsts") Kubica's achievement has been eclipsed by the following in their first WDC races:

Second on debut:
Karl Kling France 1954
Mike Parkes France 1966
Jacques Villeneuve Australia 1996

Third on debut
Jean Behra Switzerland 1952
Masten Gregory Monaco 1957
Peter Arundell Monaco 1964
Reine Wisell USA 1970
Mark Donohue Canada 1971

Of those, I think the only one to actually lead the race was Villeneuve.

#7 Teapot

Teapot
  • Member

  • 322 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 12 September 2006 - 14:00

Alexander Wurz, temporarily substituting for Gerhard Berger at the wheel of the number 8 Benetton, finished third at Silverstone in 1997, his third race and his last of the season.

#8 teegeefla

teegeefla
  • Member

  • 245 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 12 September 2006 - 16:41

Dan Gurney 2nd at Avus 1959 in his second GP...

#9 MrAerodynamicist

MrAerodynamicist
  • Member

  • 13,668 posts
  • Joined: March 99

Posted 12 September 2006 - 16:45

Juan Pablo Montoya first two finishes were both seconds.

Okay, so they were mixed in with seven DNFs :) (dnf x4, 2nd, dnf x3, 2nd)

#10 lofong

lofong
  • Member

  • 65 posts
  • Joined: June 05

Posted 12 September 2006 - 17:33

And didn't Phil Hill have a pair of podia by the time he'd done 3 races?

Interestingly according to statistician Sean Kelly, Kubica has now led more laps in a Sauber than all other prior race leaders for the team put together and it was also the first time Sauber have ever run 1-2 in a race.

:clap: :clap:

#11 WHITE

WHITE
  • Member

  • 1,481 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 12 September 2006 - 17:46

Did not Reutemann get the pole in his first GP ( Argentina ) and lead the race easily until his Brabham run out out fuel only with a few laps yet to go ?

#12 Richard Jenkins

Richard Jenkins
  • Member

  • 6,127 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 12 September 2006 - 18:23

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
Probably we have found an ace.


Whatever the statistics say, we have.

The two guys on the 2nd and third steps of the podium at Monza will both be World Champions. Kubica has the same approach to racing as Alonso, thus ergo Schumacher - total dedication, superb technical brain, can read a race/situation brilliantly.......



....... and before this post is consigned to RC, I'll keep to TNF by saying the comments (or the last sentence) came from Dave Morgan & Hans Joachim-Stuck who both raved about this guy, and they seem quite knowledgeable fellows when it comes to motor racing!

And as Sis is now married to a Pole, I have a new driver to cheer for in F1!

#13 VDP

VDP
  • Member

  • 658 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 12 September 2006 - 18:25

About Reutemann PP in 1972 with soft compounds.
Lead in 1974 and felt with fuel problems

#14 Updraught

Updraught
  • Member

  • 47 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 12 September 2006 - 18:26

Reutemann did have pole in his first GP, Argentina, 1972. However, it was Argentina,1974 when he had problems near the end and missed out on his 1st GP win, finishing 7th.

#15 Rob Miller

Rob Miller
  • Member

  • 197 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 12 September 2006 - 19:49

Ignoring shared drives, Baghetti and the 1950 season (which had all sorts of strange "firsts") Kubica's achievement has been eclipsed by the following in their first WDC races:

Second on debut:
Karl Kling France 1954
Mike Parkes France 1966
Jacques Villeneuve Australia 1996

Third on debut
Jean Behra Switzerland 1952
Masten Gregory Monaco 1957
Peter Arundell Monaco 1964
Reine Wisell USA 1970
Mark Donohue Canada 1971

Of those, I think the only one to actually lead the race was Villeneuve.


To show how little can be read into these facts, Villeneuve was the only one to go on to win a WDC race.

#16 Twin Window

Twin Window
  • Nostalgia Host

  • 6,609 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 12 September 2006 - 20:00

Originally posted by Updraught

Reutemann did have pole in his first GP, Argentina, 1972. However, it was Argentina,1974 when he had problems near the end and missed out on his 1st GP win, finishing 7th.

His airbox was falling apart, IIRC.

#17 Hugo Boecker

Hugo Boecker
  • Member

  • 689 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 12 September 2006 - 20:54

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Ignoring shared drives, Baghetti and the 1950 season (which had all sorts of strange "firsts") Kubica's achievement has been eclipsed by the following in their first WDC races:

Second on debut:
Karl Kling France 1954
Mike Parkes France 1966
Jacques Villeneuve Australia 1996

Third on debut
Jean Behra Switzerland 1952
Masten Gregory Monaco 1957
Peter Arundell Monaco 1964
Reine Wisell USA 1970
Mark Donohue Canada 1971

Of those, I think the only one to actually lead the race was Villeneuve.


Kling had a close duell with Fangio at Reims and led the race for several (10 or more I think) laps. In his 3rd race the German GP he did some more laps in the lead.

#18 Wolf

Wolf
  • Member

  • 7,881 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 12 September 2006 - 21:06

As spectacular as Kubica made his Sauber look, I'd still bet my money on Rorberg Jr; he's had a tough rookie year, plagued by misfortunes (and mysterious drops of form). But nevertheless, from what I've seen in GP2, and in few races when Williams cars were running in orderly fashion, he's one clean and fast racer...

Fortunately it's not "either-or" situation for me- I'll be keeping my eye on both and will hope they both do well.

#19 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 23,836 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 12 September 2006 - 21:11

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker


Kling had a close duell with Fangio at Reims and led the race for several (10 or more I think) laps. In his 3rd race the German GP he did some more laps in the lead.

Ah yes, I'd overlooked that, Hugo. But one wonders how much of that was MB politics orchestrated by Neubauer ....;)

Advertisement

#20 Wolf

Wolf
  • Member

  • 7,881 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 12 September 2006 - 21:18

Originally posted by Vitesse2

Ah yes, I'd overlooked that, Hugo. But one wonders how much of that was MB politics orchestrated by Neubauer ....;)


Or was it despite his orchestration (piano)...;) I'd think he's one of the team managers that'd be most displeased to see his drivers disputing 1st place.

#21 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 11,158 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 12 September 2006 - 21:40

If next year's Renault is anything good -and why not - there will soon be another driver mentioned in this thread.

#22 Hugo Boecker

Hugo Boecker
  • Member

  • 689 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 12 September 2006 - 21:48

Originally posted by Vitesse2

Ah yes, I'd overlooked that, Hugo. But one wonders how much of that was MB politics orchestrated by Neubauer ....;)

Just to go to teamorders
Mike Parkes led in his 4th GP came 2nd and an Italian driving the same car won!

#23 Kvadrat

Kvadrat
  • Member

  • 925 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 13 September 2006 - 02:24

Bernd Rosemeyer took 2 place in his second ever Grand Prix class race of Eifelrennen in 1935. He retired in his first full lenth Grand Prix of ACF, then took 4 place in German GP and 2nd in Coppa Acerbo which was real Grand Prix with distance over 500 kms.

#24 Kvadrat

Kvadrat
  • Member

  • 925 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 13 September 2006 - 02:39

Fangio won his second ever International Grand Prix in Europe (San Remo, 1949) and also won his third ever Grande Epreuve (Monaco, 1950).

#25 Nanni Dietrich

Nanni Dietrich
  • Member

  • 1,237 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 13 September 2006 - 08:24

Probably we have found an ace.

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


Whatever the statistics say, we have.


Oh god, now I've read the name of Kubica entered in a huge list after some good fellows of yours:

J. Villeneuve
E. Fittipaldi
Alesi
Donohue
Stewart
Surtees
Kling
Parkes
Behra
Gurney
Reutemann
Fangio
Rosemeyer
...
:eek:

This is VERY good for him...

#26 angst

angst
  • Member

  • 7,135 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 13 September 2006 - 09:30

Originally posted by Wolf
As spectacular as Kubica made his Sauber look, I'd still bet my money on Rorberg Jr; he's had a tough rookie year, plagued by misfortunes (and mysterious drops of form). But nevertheless, from what I've seen in GP2, and in few races when Williams cars were running in orderly fashion, he's one clean and fast racer...

Fortunately it's not "either-or" situation for me- I'll be keeping my eye on both and will hope they both do well.


Sorry, I just have to put my two pennies worth in here.

Sebastien Vettel said recently that the transition from F3 to F1 was much easier than the other way round (F1-F3). Remember when Raikkonen said that driving an F1 car (after his first tests) was easier than his FRenault? What the drivers are doing today bears little resemblance to what has gone before. Different eras, different times. I've predicted already in the RC forum that the much mooted banning of electronic driver aids will not occur, because with those controls the driver market is far more.... controllable. The young guns will constantly be being replaced with new young guns.

Having said that, much as Karl Kling clearly had some speed, it's debatable whether he would have been quite so succesful as he was if he hadn't had what was undoubtedly the best car in the field.

Didn't Reine Wisell finish on the podium at Watkin's Glen '70? Was that his second or third race?

#27 Leif Snellman

Leif Snellman
  • Member

  • 1,076 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 13 September 2006 - 14:54

I may have missed someone but I think the complete list look like this:

Arundell
Ascari
Baghetti
Behra
Beltoise
Brooks
Castellotti
Chiron
de Portago
Donahue
Fagioli
Fangio
Farina
Follmer
Gregory
Gurney
Hawthorn
P.Hill
Kling
Mairesse
Marimon
Nilsson
Parkes
R. Parnell
Perdisa
Redman
Rosier
R. Schumacher
J Stewart
Surtees
Taruffi
T. Taylor
J. Villeneuve
Whitehead
Wisell
Wurz

#28 James Page

James Page
  • Member

  • 364 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 13 September 2006 - 15:12

Jacky Ickx didn't start too badly, either. Discounting his 1967 German Grand Prix entry in an F2 car, he finished 6th at Monza that year, then started 1968 with a couple of DNFs before coming 3rd, 4th and 1st in the next three.

#29 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,085 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 13 September 2006 - 15:36

Was I right by thinking that Kubica was the first Polish GP driver to lead a GP since 1950?

#30 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 13 September 2006 - 15:43

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
Was I right by thinking that Kubica was the first Polish GP driver to lead a GP since 1950?

Who was the Polish driver who led a GP in 1950?

#31 Richard Jenkins

Richard Jenkins
  • Member

  • 6,127 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 13 September 2006 - 16:54

Originally posted by David McKinney

Who was the Polish driver who led a GP in 1950?


I presume Arjan means since the start of the World Championship because I can't recall Hans Stuck (and even that's debatable) leading a lap in 1950?

#32 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,085 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 13 September 2006 - 17:20

Gentlemen, is my english so poor? Yes, I meant was he the very first Polish driver to have lead a WC GP??

#33 GrzegorzChyla

GrzegorzChyla
  • Member

  • 324 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 13 September 2006 - 17:26

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
Was I right by thinking that Kubica was the first Polish GP driver to lead a GP since 1950?

he was first Polish driver to drive in a GP.
I believe he was first driver from East Block to lead a GP and to achieve a podium finish.

Which I must admit is a bif unfair, considering the racing tradition Czechs have...
Czech Tomas Enge was first to drive and Hungarian Baumgartner scored points before Kubica.

I have seen sources stating two german drivers in the 1950s as GDR... but I don't believe it.

I checked 'Outline of History of Motorsport' (Zarys historii sportu samochodowego) by Jan A. Litwin and there is no mention of Hans Stuck being a Pole...

Grzegorz Chyla

#34 anjakub

anjakub
  • Member

  • 606 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 13 September 2006 - 17:36

But "Zarys historii sportu samochodowego" has more mistakes than pages.
Of couse, Hans Stuck isn't Pole, only was born in Warsaw.

#35 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,085 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 13 September 2006 - 17:54

Thanks, here is my shot of him at Monza last weekend then.

Posted Image

#36 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 13 September 2006 - 18:23

Arjan
My apologies - I meant to add an emoticon to show I understod what you meant :D


Originally posted by GrzegorzChyla
he was first Polish driver to drive in a GP.
I believe he was first driver from East Block to lead a GP and to achieve a podium finish.


If you mean "world championhsip Grand Prix" please say so

#37 GrzegorzChyla

GrzegorzChyla
  • Member

  • 324 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 13 September 2006 - 18:35

Originally posted by David McKinney

If you mean "world championhsip Grand Prix" please say so

I think I meant 'a world championship Grand Prix or a Formula 1 race after WW2'

Please note that Poland before WW2 was not in East Block ;-)

Of course I do realize that in Grand Prix Gór ¦wiêtokrzyskich, run in late 1970s and early 1980s only polish drivers took part. :-)
This race in 1974 was first race I saw. A street race in Kielce.

#38 Wolf

Wolf
  • Member

  • 7,881 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 13 September 2006 - 18:36

David, so I'm right in boasting all over the place that Moss won almost as many GPs as Prost (40 vs 41)?;)

Maybe it's being a but 'elitist' but as much as GP and F1 WDC round are synonimous nowdays, I feel uncomfortable calling anything post '80 Grand Prix.

#39 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,085 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 13 September 2006 - 18:40

Originally posted by David McKinney
Arjan
My apologies - I meant to add an emoticon to show I understod what you meant :D


No offense David, but I thought you had started on Polish jokes! ;)

BTW, Kubica's helmet racing by has a slight resmblance to Clay Regazzoni.